Discussion on the Future Direction of Model Engineer and Workshop

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Some people actually like to ‘build it in their head’ even if they never make a real one.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Never mind about what to publish and the format,One of the biggest problems will be how to write an article bearing in mind the range of skills and equipment that readers will have. Here we have one of the best reasons why newcomers should join a club, informal training and access to machine tools.

Jasons beautiful little dynamo has used a lathe and no doubt a CNC mill to get these results, does one have to write the code or will it somehow be in the article ? His knowledge and skill is obvious ! When I get round to making mine I may take pictures of making a similar dynamo using possibly a lathe, a drill, a hacksaw and files. This to illustrate that a working model can also be made with simple tools.

To write on welding, which I don’t remember being covered recently ( not in ME ) may be needed as a friend of mine has just bought a Lidl welder for under £40 and asked me to show him how to use it. Again I may take pictures and write a short article giving the bear bones, as this is a skill where practice is the key, along with half decent rods .  That will do on this one ! Noel

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Sorry to disappoint but the dynamo was all done on the manual lathe and mill. If anyone wanted to put their mind to it then it could actually all be done on a lathe. If you read a few of my builds on here you will see me say “I used the CNC but it could be done without” Or just look at all the engines made before I had the CNC or even those before I had a mill like the Minnie in my avatar that was just lathe and drill press. It is something I am conscious of though and would not publish something that could not be done without the CNC or even some of the more complex fabrications or manual chopping from solid as there are only a few who may take it on.

The big problem is those that do write are unlikely to be beginners so they will write about how they made something. If the mag needs articles specifically aimed at the beginner then it really needs a commission or for someone to make something with the beginner in mind from the start and take more photo of things that they would otherwise consider not worth mentioning and write it up in more detail. If that Clarkson one gets published then you will see what I mean as I built it with exactly that in mind, even some filing !

Oh and as for code well that is very much machine dependant so not ideal to include in an article but those who actually make some of the things I show have been known to ask nicely and get a suitable STEP file or more which will allow them to resize, 3D print or CNC a part or outsource laser or waterjet cutting, a lot of others have had a full size set of drawings so don’t have to work from the small ones in the mag. Quite easy to put a QR code into an article though which would take a reader to where they could download whatever an author wants to provide.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Noel’s comment also brings up the point about encouraging authors to also run a concurrent thread on the forum where anyone with a query can raise it and hopefully get help and by making it public also help others.

As you will see I specifically say it can be used for those with queries on making parts with what machines they have as it is impossible for an author to cover what each reader may have available to them.

The article also carries a link to the thread so anyone with a question or wanting to see the additional images can find there way there. I’d like to see more of the same. A beginner or someone new to the forum may be a bit put off by starting a new thread with a query but if the thread is already there then it may encourage them to speak up.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Long series can perhaps be shortened by more careful selection of photos and, as LBSC did, referring to previous articles for some of the standard items – eg a water gauge is the same on every boiler so arrange just one detail description per year.
Having just caught up with December MEW hopefully the padding reduction will allow more small articles per issue. Two pages of file rack only needed a couple of pictures with one including a ruler (yes wooden ruler not rule with almost invisible graduations) and no text, 5 pages of chainsaw vice only needed two good pictures and fifty words so both could have been condensed into one page, and the Universal Wrench has been discussed before.

Every picture can be critically examined – is is clear and showing me relevant information in sufficient but not excessive magnification without extraneous views of the rest of the lathe which I’ve seen before. Text – well remember those exercises we did at school called ‘precis’.

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

Maybe we should ask the question how many steam locomotives will be built from the long running article compared with how many stationary engines will be built following Jason’s articles. Many years ago Kieth Wilson serialised Ariel, a merchant navy class locomotive, to this day hardly any have been built, mainly due to dozens of errors on the drawings. Very few people are going to build locomotives when they can buy beautifully detailed models from the likes of Silvercrest, one club I belong to has about 50 members and only about 5 actually build anything from scratch. Maybe we drop the steam locos and publish stationary engines that beginners could attempt because they can learn the skills needed there such as cylinder boring and making crankshafts, turning eccentrics etc. Regarding steam locomotives, I feel that there are more than enough designs around to satisfy most people, from beginner to expert with plenty of build instructions available.

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

I have taken MEW since around 2006 and ME since around 2012.  I am not really into locos but there was a series on either a piece of equipment or a stationary/IC engine in ME that I was interested in.  I kept up the subscription to ME but was tempted to stop it a number of times.  The majority of the time I have been reasonably happy with MEW.  I’m afraid I get more annoyed with editing/proof read errors in both magazines.  I appreciate being editor is a thankless task.  Many many years ago I used to write articles for a local paper and have had to write software test scripts and user guides so can appreciate how difficult this task can be.

I enjoyed the first few Butterside down articles but then felt the topic moved to far from engineering of any sort and I was not a fan of the writing style.  The part of the series covering his trailer build was informative but went on way too long, and I dread to think the cost of building that trailer in the UK with the various rack mounted clamps etc.

The loco builds which go down to the exact rivet location I find a very heavy read.  As others have said, highlighting how to carry out particular difficult tasks and with interesting setups would be of more use.

The recent articles on “Unseizing a steam cylinder” in ME were to my mind very heavily padded and could have been shortened significantly, maybe to 3 or 4 pages max.

I think that series need to be a lot shorter.  With the magazine moving to a monthly basis a six parter will now take six months not three.  As with most things todays todays young people want instant gratification and an article lasting longer than six months will not interest them.  They seem to want much quicker results.

I joined my local club to help support it as it was possible going to lose its venue (and still may). They have couple of members under 18. This year the club put in a small gauge 1 layout.  This was to a) aid as an attraction to younger members who could not afford a large loco and b) for some of the elder members of the club who were beginning to struggle moving large 5″ and 7 1/4″ locos.  A number of the members now have 3D printed locos running (most with radio control).

I can appreciate the work that has gone into building the various steam locos (and battery) but certainly could not find enough time (or even maybe live long enough) to build one.  This year whilst recovering from prostate surgery I 3D printed a gauge 1 loco to run on their new small layout.  Perhaps an article on the trials and tribulations of 3D printing a small loco.

I’m sure that a lot of readers have purchased items on ebay or from a club auctions, etc that needed remedial work to make operational.  Articles for instance on how they recovered from the poor work to get a running item.

Where people have done long builds then I think this site is the place for the full build, with a subset highlighting critical points and setups etc. in the magazine.  Some of Jason Ballamy’s builds have done this very well.

I have documented a couple of builds on this site, but following a recent breakin to the house and theft of wife’s car am loathe to put too much info into posts/articles regarding equipment.

Colin

 

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

I believe whatever we think the content should be now, it will have to change and it will be very different in 10 or more years time.

I cannot see younger entrants coming in to the world of ME and being particularly interested in building a 5 inch gauge loco and committing years of their spare time to the project. Modern houses do not have enough garden space for the proverbial wooden shed workshop. Houses that are fortunate to have a garage will use it to store stuff that won’t fit in the house (like freezers etc) as modern houses are so small you can’t swing a cat in them.

As for actual metal bashing, I think fewer people are actually interested in pure mechanical stuff (nor have the skills or even the desire to learn the skills). They might use some mechanical engineering in creating a project that uses electronics, raspberry pi and 3d printing, and some coding etc.

It will be wrong in my view to try and attract the under 30’s, modern life is far too hectic, stressful and expensive raising a family in a pokey little modern house. It’s the older (mature) person that may be looking to start a new interest as they may now have more time, space and a disposable income.

But I think that sadly  whatever happens during the next 2 decades model engineering will become a very niche hobby that very few old eccentrics will still practice until they eventually die.

The magazine will therefore have adapt and become something very different to the ME magazine that has been virtually unchanged for its entire life, otherwise that too will also cease.

Sorry to be so negative but model engineering as a hobby is now competing with more alternative free time activities than it ever has before.

As for the actual content of the “new” magazine? Depends who is attracted to our world of model engineering and what the magazine is actually for?

 

[derek hall 1]

On derek hall 1 Said:

…
But I think that sadly  whatever happens during the next 2 decades model engineering will become a very niche hobby that very few old eccentrics will still practice until they eventually die.

…

Sorry to be so negative…

 

As for the actual content of the “new” magazine? Depends who is attracted to our world of model engineering and what the magazine is actually for?

 

Though I follow Derek’s logic, I hope he’s wrong about the outcome.   Certainly the hobby is in trouble, but, as it has done many times before, I think it will adapt.

As ‘Model Engineering’ isn’t a particular thing there’s plenty of choice.   Though a few enthusiasts might believe ME can  only mean building steam locos using traditional methods, that’s never been the reality. ‘Model’ doesn’t only mean making miniatures!   A better definition might be ‘any technical interest where metalwork is useful’.  Fixing motorbikes is allowed as are clocks, instruments, experimenting and much else.

To my mind owning a lathe confirms the bug has been caught, though these days I accept the equivalence of milling machines, 3d-printers,  CAD, welders, oscilloscopes, and many other tools.    Modelling done on the back of an envelope is also valid.   So is researching technology on the web or in books.   Though I like to see tools used in anger, I’m entirely happy with Model Engineers who simply collect them!  And with Model Engineers who explore the history of technology, or just want to learn, without actually cutting metal.   Theory and practice are two sides of the same coin.

As there are hundreds of possibilities, the hobby is only doomed if we box ourselves in.  Easily done, only requires a lack of imagination, so that has to be fought.  We should look for positives: a workshop with a decent sized lathe, bench, milling machine and junk-box is indeed too much to hope for in many modern houses.   But a youngster would have no trouble putting 3D-CAD on his computer and 3D-printing parts on his dining table.   And his designs can be emailed to be made in metal by a CNC shop.  This is just as much Model Engineering as researching and building a McConnell Bloomer from scratch in a giant shed with 3-phase and all mod cons.  Youngsters have just as much interest in engineering as we did, except it’s not the same engineering.  Seriously bad mistake to believe they’re only interested in Apps!

I find the metal bashing aspect of Model Engineering extremely enjoyable, but it only became possible after the kids grew up and I retired.   I believe this is common. Older men who have long hankered after a workshop become new boys, not youths.  The magazine has to attract late entrants, so lots of 1955 practical advice please!  But, Mother Nature makes it unlikely these chaps will have time to finish a demanding loco project, so maybe less of them in the mag.

At the same time, the magazine and hobby also needs to attract teenagers and young adults: that means electronics, computers, CAD, design, and modern projects like quad-copters!

Striking the balance won’t be easy.  Though the breadth of Model Engineering provides many opportunities, it also creates schisms and provokes argument.   Which is dreadful, because Model Engineers are meant to be a community of like-minded souls having fun!  Plenty of negative posts on the forum from members who dislike complexity, or think all new things are bad, or believe experience trumps theory and common-sense explains all, or can’t bear to be challenged etc.  I predict shrieks of pain from this group every time Neil publishes anything modern!

Unfortunately, modernisers are liable to miss the good in older methods, and they won’t buy the magazine if they perceive traditional content to be irrelevant. At worst Neil might upset everyone!

Despite the difficulties, I remain optimistic.   Not for the first time, Model Engineering is having to adapt to a changing world.  I’m not expecting a revolution!  No bonfire of Myfords and Imperial Measure, more a determined shift towards technology as she is practised in this millennium.   Model Engineering will be different, not destroyed.

Dave

 

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

My turn to disagree with Dave.

I just can’t see that fixing motorbikes has anything to do with model engineeering. However it has a lot more to do with hobby/home workshop activity as does collecting and restoring machines if they are being put to use on non ME subjects. If that is what the new mag is going to be aimed at then the Model needs to be a minor part of the title. Little point in using it due to the heritage if that has what has seen the sales of that title decline so maybe it should be mE&W if the model has to remain.

 

[Andy StopfordParticipant @andystopford50521]

I don’t think it’s the case that the appeal of old-school lathe-and-mic hobby engineering is on the way out; a quick look at some YouTube stats suggests otherwise:

Joe Pie 174,000 subscribers

Blondihacks 234,000 subscribers

Ade’s Workshop 14,200 subscribers

I picked the above on the basis that all had featured traditional model steam engine build series, as well as workshop techniques, etc.

Of course, many of those subscribers will never pick up a hacksaw, but in this context it doesn’t really matter – they’re still engaged enough to watch the channel and click the subscribe button (and by no means everyone who watches subscribes), so the interest is there.

[LukerParticipant @luker]

I honestly don’t understand this narrative of youngsters not being interested in Model engineering, or more broadly, making things from scratch. I had no issue encouraging youngsters to join our club and start building what they were interested in. Most youngsters are keen to learn and generally picked up machining, silver soldering, 3d printing etc. very quickly. With the correct instruction they realised this could be adapted to practically anything (and yes model engineering can very easily be applied to motorcycle restoration, my bikes have quite a few scratch built parts).

I’m sorry to say that if that is not common to other a fraternity’s then the problem is not with the youngsters. The fact is, if you haven’t contributed by innovating, designing or encouraging youngsters and teaching them how to make things; then you are the problem. If the youngsters lost interest then quite frankly you had little to teach them or they realised that you were talking nonsense. If you bashed a contributor to the magazine, without contributing yourself, then you are the problem.

There’s some bean-counter-bureaurat sitting in an office deciding which way our hobby should go, which is in itself very scary. I truly hope Niel can manage these people and the reader’s expectations! Model engineering is not failing, we are…

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

There is much to commend Lukes statement ! I have over the years visited over 50 clubs and societies talking and demonstrating the art or craft of foundry work, in the hope that I can share my knowledge of this seldom seen skill. I hope that some may pick up the baton and take the craft forward to the next generation. I have written for ME and MEW, I am also a subscriber to ME. The latest edition (4759)makes NO mention of what is going on ( though Butterside down is out ) and is asking for new subscriptions. Nothing in the editors column ? Was the decision a spur of the moment thing, I don’t think so ! Noel.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

One successful Society that I know makes facilities available just for younger members.

Another has a decreasing membership because it seems obsessed with a permanent track for locomotives to the almost exclusion of other activities.  Indeed, members have resigned because of a refusal to have “Taster Sessions” to attract members.

In my experience, youngsters, and older folk, who have been given an opportunity to operate a lathe, under supervision, have been thrilled by the opportunity. Some have joined Societies

We need to foster any activity that will attract newcomers to the hobby.

Unless this done, the magazines, suppliers and the hobby will vanish.

Howard

[noel shelley]

On noel shelley Said:

The latest edition (4759)makes NO mention of what is going on ( though Butterside down is out ) and is asking for new subscriptions. Nothing in the editors column ? Was the decision a spur of the moment thing, I don’t think so ! Noel.

The anouncements here were brought forward as someone let the cat out the bag early.

[BaldricParticipant @baldric]

Having now read issue 4759, I have to say that Butter Side Down had nothing to do with model engineering other than trying to persuade people to go out of their comfort zone & join a club, but only after going through 2 1/2 pages about dad dancing, at least in previous episodes of this, there was something I felt worth reading. Added to butter side down, there is an article on an author who happened to work for a railway at one point & a ghost story, both of which I am not sure were relevant enough to be in the magazine, I would prefer less of these articles that do not really have any relevance.

Baldric.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I too am slowly catching up with you and think it is a sign of the desperate shortage of good material for 2 magazines. If the new situation gets us to a point of not padding please do get someone to check the value and cropping of photos.

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

My copy of 4759 eventually turned up on Saturday afternoon and I was delighted to read that we have come to the end of Butterside Down. I read the working on the lathe : drilling and boring and thought it was utter rubbish, why do we need to know about drilling holes on the moon and Mars, how does that help me drill a better hole on my lathe, why do we have a picture of a drilling machine, we are concerned with drilling on the lathe, not on every other tool in the workshop, photo 6 is a much better picture of an Engineers rule than a carbide tipped boring bar, a novice cannot tell from that picture if it is tipped or not, and photo 7 shows a drill cutting properly, does it really! Pretty sure that    you need to see the swarf coming equally off both flutes to say it’s cutting properly. I am also very disappointed that Cherry Hill obituary only managed two pages considering all she done for the hobby. If this magazine is to succeed the editor will need to edit and be far more selective of what gets published, now that EIM has finished we are now entering the magazine version of the last chance saloon.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

IF ME is to survive then to an extent it is in our hands ! I and others have moaned about Butterside Down, BUT IT RAN FOR 27 issues either, A we didn’t moan enough, or B nobody was listening.

I hope Neil will have a better feel for what is wanted and be more in touch with the readership. We for our part need to make our feelings known and supply interesting copy. Noel.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

IF ME is to survive then to an extent it is in our hands !

But compared to the other challenges in the current operating environment, probably a small extent.

Magazines ( and clubs) suffer from what I understand to referrd to as “churn” – a constant loss of readers / members that has to be replaced. I have heard suggestions that this can be in the region of 30% a year – in the motorcycle club I once edited the magazine for, the annual Membership Sec’s report usually showed that overall membership was largely static, but only by the number of new members matching the number that had not renewed. But in recent years membership has been steadily falling & the AGM starts with a moment of silence to remember members who have passed on – not just model (or home workshop) engineering that has an aging participant base and some non-renewers have not done so voluntarily.

So how will the reworked magazine attract the new blood  that is probably more important to it’s long term survival than retaining current & former readers ? ME & MEW were never particularly easy to find in high street news agents like WH Smiths, being buried away at the back of lower shelves mixed in with Railway Modeller and the like – you had to know you wanted an issue to persevere with hunting it down. When on one occasion I asked about MEW shortly after the publication date when i couldn’t find it on the shelf I was told that they only received 3 copies & when they were gone there was no facility to order in any more of that issue – and that was in a main town centre branch (Huddersfield), not some smaller village outlet.

Do younger potential readers bother with print media any more ? Due to the actions of local authorities, who seem hell bent on the destruction of the high street as we used to know it, I rarely bother going into town now as it is just too expensive for the limited remaining outlets & I doubt I am alone, so less opportunity to attract “passing trade” as before ? The likes of Youtube have also changed the landscape – it is just easier to search out a video online for something you might have an interest in than research which print publications might be relevant and track down a copy at £5-6 a pop. Yes, there is a lot of dross on there (but there has also been a lot of irrelevant dross in magazines of late), but there are also some real gems with production standards rivalling (or bettering in some cases) mainstream broadcast content. And video can show much more easily methods and operation than print media can and at no up-front cost to the inquisitive.

A magazine’s long term future is dependant on a lot more than content that keeps the current readers buying.

Nigel B.

 

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

I have subscribed to a magazine since the 80’s and late last year the publishers decided to merge it with another of their publications and reduced its content from 50 pages to maximum of 10 and I fear that the same will happen to MEW, I’m not interested in Model Engineer so for those reasons I’ve decided to cancel my subscription.

Martin P

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

MAN THE LIFEBOATS ! Noel.

[noel shelley]

On noel shelley Said:

Can someone give me dates when ME was called “Model Engineer and Electrician” ? Noel.

At least from 1898 to 1908, possibly longer.

By 1923 it was The Model Engineer – A Journal of Small Power Engineering.

‘The New Model Engineer’ in 1955 and ‘Model Engineer – The Magazine for the Mechanically Minded’ in 1956.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Well I’m looking forward to the new magazine with hopeful anticipation.
Im also very pleased to say that the forum seems to have perked up a bit too. Lots of workshop related threads instead of the majority of moans that there were a while back.

[martin perman 1]

On martin perman 1 Said:

I have subscribed to a magazine since the 80’s and late last year the publishers decided to merge it with another of their publications and reduced its content from 50 pages to maximum of 10 and I fear that the same will happen to MEW, I’m not interested in Model Engineer so for those reasons I’ve decided to cancel my subscription.

Martin P

 

Well, this merge means an extra 16 pages.

[Author]

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