Discussion on the Future Direction of Model Engineer and Workshop

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Putting things in proportion a bit, although it is off-topic, the bad experiences some have had with clubs should not be regarded as typical of all model-engineering societies, neither should unwelcoming attitudes by die-hards be seen as unique to our hobby.

I have seen it elsewhere, and very often it comes down to just a tiny clique of long-standing (or armchair-weighting) characters who have become very proprietorial to organisations or facilities they had put considerable effort into building many years previously. So they fear new people and ideas that might change the armchairs.

I also knew of three (one since deceased) people – members of my own club – who were deterred from helping it in future thanks only to one, just one, person being so hurtfully sarcastic to them on just one occasion they decided that was enough and they took no further part in its activities.

I have also known elsewhere, outside of model-engineering, a lot of visitors to that club’s facilities being treated coldly by a clique of only about three out of well over 200 members. It gave the club a bad name for a while.

Now, I propose such childish treatment of newcomers or visitors is probably very much a minority problem. Even so, no matter how friendly a bunch of chaps and chappesses personally, any club must be careful not to appear to newcomers to be stuck on just one or two aspects of its interest.

In the end, perhaps what inspires anyone to make things from metals might not be the publications, but the societies of people already making things. Not tracks or workshops or club-rooms; but people.

If society members don’t entice people into the hobby, the future of that, never mind its magazines, is down to the consequently dwindling number of potential readers. Not vice-versa.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Totally agree Nigel.

At work myself and one other are old stagers. I’ve been there 33 years and he’s been there 40. We have two youngsters of barely 30 years old and 21 years. They are the future of the workshop. I can offer them a sense of heritage and the Lab has plenty but they are the people to lay down the heritage of 30 years hence.

Any club, society or indeed magazine has to see new members and ideas as the future or there just isn’t one.

I don’t understand any organisation that is frightened of being changed by younger members. They just end up like a closed order of monks who just age and die off.

In the Lab my greatest delight is to see young engineers and scientists just setting out. Everything is possible and some will do truly great things. I’ve had my time so why be envious.

The gift that we can impart to newcomers is how much fun and enjoyment we have had exploring whatever was new to us and making the things that interested us  just like they can and if it’s different new things or interests that’s fine because it’s just what we did.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I tried to email my list of contributors to MEW etc. on Friday. I had to use batches of 25 emails, as there were over 400 of you.

Unfortunately, I crossed a volume of email threshold and this has resulted in most of them being blocked as spam and my email is now blacklisted. Silly billy 🙁

Mortons IT are not back to sort it until after the holiday break 🙁

I can receive emails, and will be working through them after Christmas. In the short term I will answer urgent messages from another email address. I will reply to others once my email is sorted.

Please be assured I want to respect the heritage and all that is best about both magazines. I greatly appreciate your ideas and input.

Do have a great Christmas and New Year,

Neil

[Nigel Graham 2]

On Nigel Graham 2 Said:

Putting things in proportion a bit, although it is off-topic, the bad experiences some have had with clubs should not be regarded as typical of all model-engineering societies, neither should unwelcoming attitudes by die-hards be seen as unique to our hobby.

I have seen it elsewhere, and very often it comes down to just a tiny clique of long-standing (or armchair-weighting) characters who have become very proprietorial to organisations or facilities they had put considerable effort into building many years previously. So they fear new people and ideas that might change the armchairs.

I also knew of three (one since deceased) people – members of my own club – who were deterred from helping it in future thanks only to one, just one, person being so hurtfully sarcastic to them on just one occasion they decided that was enough and they took no further part in its activities.

I have also known elsewhere, outside of model-engineering, a lot of visitors to that club’s facilities being treated coldly by a clique of only about three out of well over 200 members. It gave the club a bad name for a while.

Now, I propose such childish treatment of newcomers or visitors is probably very much a minority problem. Even so, no matter how friendly a bunch of chaps and chappesses personally, any club must be careful not to appear to newcomers to be stuck on just one or two aspects of its interest.

In the end, perhaps what inspires anyone to make things from metals might not be the publications, but the societies of people already making things. Not tracks or workshops or club-rooms; but people.

If society members don’t entice people into the hobby, the future of that, never mind its magazines, is down to the consequently dwindling number of potential readers. Not vice-versa.

I swore not to make any more specific replies this side of Christmas… but:

I joined an astronomy club in the West Midlands several years ago. At my first meeting I was approached by several people who chatted to me and made me welcome and ensured I got biscuits and tea. I later discovered that this was standard procedure and not just for the first meeting, it was very friendly and inclusive and no-one was ever left in a corner on their own. At our observing sessions, there was as much interaction and chat and anything else. Volunteer sessions were well planned and everyone got sensible jobs within their capabilities as well as constant hot drinks. We also had social events and ran events for the public –  and beginners were particularly important at these as they were seen to be better able to connect with an uninformed public, rather than being made to feel they had nothing to contribute.

I have since moved away but remain in contact with several good friends made through the club.

The long and short of it is that a club needs a welcoming and supportive culture, and that means good leadership to set the tone. For example, committee members who engage with new members and make the point of remembering their faces and names. And plenty of tea breaks and room for chatting, not just the formal business.

I’d encourage every model engineering club to take a similar approach if it wants to thrive, and I know that many do (SMEE for a start).

Neil

[Neil Wyatt]

On Neil Wyatt Said:

… I had to use batches of 25 emails, as there were over 400 of you.

Unfortunately, I crossed a volume of email threshold and this has resulted in most of them being blocked as spam and my email is now blacklisted. Silly billy 🙁

…

No consolation to those who got nothing, but Neil has both my private and anonymised email addresses, so I got two doses of well-expressed goodwill!

Discovered at 12am I’m out of sherry, bin liners, and other festive essentials.  Law of Sheer Cussedness, maybe?    Poor us, why is nothing ever easy…

Seasons Greetings.

Dave

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Whilst we are debating how to make the hobby appeal to newcomers, it is important for them to know that they are welcome, and will be helped.

The hobby (And its magazines and suppliers) need to make newcomers welcome if all are to survive!

There has been an example on here where a newcomer, complaining of difficulties, did not know that a lathe tool, needed to be on the centre line if it is to cut properly.

Someone needs to explain simply why a cutting tool needs clearance angles, but not a lecture on exactly which angle is ideal for every material.

It is too easy for the experienced to forget that what, to them, is second nature, often needs to be learned by a newcomer.   With my first use of a lathe, I had to learn that the cut put on, removed material from both sides, so that end result was smaller than expected.

Consequently, a newbie will benefit from just cutting metal, before to going on to gain confidence, by having made some simple tool or engine. “Old Hands” should help with demonstration, advice, and opportunity to practice. This is where magazines (And books) are important as a more permanent source of knowledge.

Once, we were all newbies! No doubt, from time time, we still learn.

On this Forum, there have been examples of a newbie asking a question, but through lack of  knowledge, using incorrect terminology, and so receiving an answer to a question that they did not ask!

Despite having a lifelong background in engineering, when I first acquired a lathe, I did not expect, one day, to be screwcutting ( As opposed to using Taps and Dies), let alone gear cutting!

To a non engineer, the fact that that a belt and pulley, or gears, can change speed and torque may come as a revelation.

There was a time, when we had to learn that, even if it was with our Meccano set!

Experience is important, so we should pass it on to the less knowledgeable, whether by word of mouth, example, or the written word in magazines and books.

Directing a newbie towards a suitable source of information (One of which is a magazine), can be a great help.

Howard

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

The first big threshold is overcoming the fear of the unknown. Going to the club for the first time can be a big event psychologically.
Some people are generally confident in any situation, but most while they may have some areas or situations where they feel fine eg a pub, any pub, but feel even more at home in their local. But that same person can be reluctant to go into a church for a service and struggle even when they are attending a family wedding / funeral.
I find the same effect in relation to most group activities. In retirement I  happen to be very active in promoting my ME clubs, cricket clubs, men’s sheds, food banks, churches, council warm spaces, musical events, other religious community activities, all when 50 years ago I expected to be shyly hiding in my shed. It is the same for all these things, even a simple coffee and cake invitation – not been there before so reluctant to cross the threshold.

But everyone is happy to go into a shop, any shop, and buy a pint of milk. Confidence in knowing what you want and what to expect in the shop makes it easy even if you have to ask where the product is. You do not need to be welcomed by the shopkeeper, though it doesn’t hurt. If possible explaining in advance in detail what to expect on first entry helps a lot with making it less of an unknown territory. Otherwise having a reason to attend helps the first venture eg taking grandchildren to a public running day or exhibition, including a chance encounter when the club has a stand at an unrelated show (car, agricultural, hamradio shows; carboots and village fetes all opportunities).

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

On Neil Wyatt Said:

… I had to use batches of 25 emails, as there were over 400 of you.

Unfortunately, I crossed a volume of email threshold and this has resulted in most of them being blocked as spam and my email is now blacklisted. Silly billy 🙁

…

No consolation to those who got nothing, but Neil has both my private and anonymised email addresses, so I got two doses of well-expressed goodwill!

Discovered at 12am I’m out of sherry, bin liners, and other festive essentials.  Law of Sheer Cussedness, maybe?    Poor us, why is nothing ever easy…

Seasons Greetings.

Dave

Turned on the oven to cook the turkey for tomorrow. For the second time it doesn’t work. Fortunately the turkey just fits in the microwave/combo oven, so I won’t be making an early morning dash to the daughter’s to use her oven like last time, but I won’t be going to bed till the early hours after sorting this out. Why do domestic appliances have to be so complicated? A temperature control and an on/off switch would be enough.

Yours

Ebenezer Scrooge (or at least one of his fans, pity he went wrong at the end)

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Correction, the microwave/combo isn’t working either, so it looks like cheese butties for Xmas dinner. Turkey going on the bin, it’s been sort of warm for 3 hours.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Duncan,

 

Sorry to hear that your planned meal is ruined. I’m not much for stuffing myself in the afternoon, so was always planning on a bacon sarnie for lunch and a schnitzel for dinner. As a cheapskate who doesn’t believe in waste, I’d have jointed and boiled the bird and probably turned it into a lot of curries for the freezer….

pgk

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Well just seen the latest Butterside Down, just when I thought it could not drop any further this installment has really hit rock bottom.

Massive waste of space on the first page (not including the text) and as for that big photo on the second well at the very best it is just about tea room content and I’m not surprized subscribers have decided not to pay for that sort of content and sales have dropped.

Neil Please don’t adopt this type of layout with the blank column on the left and a title that could be one line of large text rather than a wasteful image. It will save your budget as you are paying by the page so why only fill half of it and that may even help save the future of the new mag.

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Happy xmas all.

I have just quickly read through the image Jason has posted about the awful “butterside down”, absolutely nothing to do with anything model engineering, and as for all that wasted space as Jason pointed out……equals one page of garbage……

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

A couple more examples of subscribers having to pay for padding. both these series run to 60 odd installments so with 1/4 of the first page waste don each one that is 15 pages of nothing. No wonder these things run into so many parts and there are few that want them. Why the painting in each issue and at such a large size and a totally wasted column in the other multiply that by the 10 similar pages in the mag and you are expecting people to pay for 2 1/2 pages of nothing. Not a good business model. Not to mention wasting £125 of the limited budget for content.

[Old SchoolParticipant @oldschool]

I have never read Butterside Down before, what a waste of space. I find very little of interest in Model Engineer these days glad I get it as part of our Readly subscription I certainly wouldn’t buy it.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

But everyone is happy to go into a shop, any shop, and buy a pint of milk. Confidence in knowing what you want and what to expect in the shop makes it easy even if you have to ask where the product is.

Bazyles comment above reminds me :- The above is only true if you speak the language, or some of it ! Walking into a shop in N Wales, my basic grasp of many european languages was of NO use, I felt completely lost, in fact quite disconcerted, they seemed disinclined to speak English and the only welsh word I knew was POLICE (hedlu) and that because they had stopped to ask what I was doing parked in an isolated spot. My answer was part of an amusing story !

Using the wrong terminology can be confusing at best and potentially fatal. It often crops up here and makes answering a question very difficult, newcomers must have the proper words drummed into them and the reason WHY this or that word is used. Much time has been wasted at work due to this.

Let us have NO MORE butterside down in the new ME – PLEASE ! Noel.

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

When visiting a foreign land it pays to learn a bit of the lingo. We can see Wales from our sitting room window and many holidays there have given us a good vocabulary. Plus the Welsh populous are very proud of their language and delight in correcting mis-pronunciation, which we have found usually breaks the ice and the barrier. When they will usually break into English. Having a Welsh fellow apprentice gave me an appreciation of their culture.

We also found this when we visited Austria. Trying to enter the supermarket by the exit door was a quick wake-up call to read the language as well. Having a broad Forest accent is not good when trying to match a dialect with-in the said language. The locals take a delight in you having tried to learn their language. One Old lady went away laughing as we tried our Pigeon German.

Years ago before the internet the only way to learn about engineering was to get an apprenticeship, or get books from the library on the subject. I learnt Carpentry not from school but from a book by Charles Hayward. There used to be loads of Teach Yourself books. Unlike the internet, a book is usually proof read and has the benefit of correcting inappropriate wording. Thus terminology is more likely to be correct in a book.

I did find an anomaly to this in that while I called coolant “Suds”, but my wife’s Cousin who worked for Vosper’s at Southampton called it “Slurry”. Suds to him was lather, while Slurry to me was what was spread on the fields.

Before the internet we used to have Catalogues. These to are a source of terminology and also the source of things which may be used later. Very often I have been looking for something in a catalogue and something has taken my eye. That something has been stored away in the brain and has been withdrawn at a later date to save the day.

When you look for things on the internet all you get is what you are looking for. No for me Books are and always will be King.

A good starting point would be the books of the likes of Sparey, Mason, Westbury and GHT for the new comer. They will not go far wrong with these. I know because they helped me.

Regards

Gray,

 

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, well I started to read the first Butterside Down, and I found nothing at all in it that interested me. nor had any real connection to things that I do, and I gave up. Had anther go with the second one, and found it just the same, if not worse and gave up, and so I’ve not even bothered to read any further ones at all.

Regards Nick.

[ZanParticipant @zan]

Gosh I stopped my me subscription 2 years ago. The flying Scotsman series was interesting, but very long winded, and Jason’s post of the butter is frankly a great piece of cxxp and has no place in any publication let alone something proporting to be “engineering “. Glad I’m not wasting cash which can be spent on the (these days) very high priced castings

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Jason,

While I totally agree with you, one of my fellow club members thought the first couple of segments were great! (haven’t asked recently).

Each to their own… JohnS.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Not quite sure where this guy would fit in the target demographic:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2ucOgtgJas

… be prepared to fast-forward through some of the video.

1. Would the new magazine want him ?
2. Would he want the new magazine ?

MichaelG.

.

[TrickyParticipant @tricky]

Replying to Jason about the differences in layout between ME and MEW he has missed the obvious difference.  ME has a smaller typeface, slightly less line spacing and 4 columns per page compared to MEW 3 columns per page with a larger typeface and 6lpi.  Therefore the word density in ME is probably the same or greater than that in MEW.

In terms of content I have found that recently 90% of MEW has no interest to me and I was considering unsubscribing but now I will wait to see the content of the new combined magazine.

Richard

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

He would probably get better value out of the 5 or 6 model railway mags that are available and a similar number of woodworking titles.

And personally I would say that is where he should be if he were to write an article about it.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Tricky, you posted while I was typing.

As ME pays more per page than MEW that is good to know but an empty page is an empty page whichever way you look at it.The four columns does mean 3 blank vertical spaces left between the columns but only two in MEW so that also needs to be taken into account. I count about 6 more lines to a column in ME than MEW. Would really need to do a word count to see which has more.

EDIT

Typical page count for 4 full columns of text in ME is 1250 and 3 full columns in MEW is 1100. But with the blank first columns in ME you are only getting 910 words to those pages.

[Martin Johnson 1Participant @martinjohnson1]

Seems to me there are too many people who are “not interested in X, Y & Z so have no interest in the magazine”.  Strangely, they never tell us what they are interested in.

Another blithering obvious point is that Neil is paid to EDIT the magazine.  Note for those who don’t own a dictionary – EDIT does not mean WRITE.  The writing bit is down to people like us who actually do model engineering and consider it to be a hobby worth keeping alive.  Strangely, the not interested in X, Y & Z bunch do not seem willing to write anything.

Having got that off my chest, it is pretty clear that filling pages up has been an ongoing battle for both magazines for some time (as indeed it was for EIM).  The “visits to hither and yon write ups” have been getting ever bigger, while the “How I did X in my workshop” are becoming an endangered species.

For my own preferences:

• I think the GWR pannier series is good, especially as it is likely to appeal to beginners.
• I can’t abide the format of the club news – it seems to be a lot words that doesn’t actually tell you anything unless you happen to be in the club that is being covered (in which case you knew it already).  Geoff Theasby’s style of writing grates on me, I am afraid; I have a healthy sense of humour but I don’t get his.  I would much prefer to see a smaller detailed slot on what is happening at a few clubs rather than trying to cover everything sent in.  The random photos don’t really seem relevant either.
• Butterside Down has some valid points in it.  Indeed the author’s own introduction to model engineering was eerily similar to mine, and like Steve I went into engineering as a living on the back of model engineering as a teenage hobby.  However, much of the writing is overly wordy and turgid.
• I have been frustrated with the IMLEC style reports for many a long year.  They could be written from a pro forma – “(Insert name here) started off with N passengers behind his Maid of Kent / Simplex / Little Twittering and Bumbletown 3-6-4 to his own design and after a clean getaway / a struggle / much slipping then ground to a halt / zoomed away / went to the pub and got plastered / fell off into the bushes.  After a short blow up, progress resumed / the run was abandoned / Y passengers got off.  The run finally returned a creditable / appalling / unbelievable efficiency of 1.769543218 % and took Qth place on the leader board.”  Just fill in the numbers, cross out different bits and hey presto – no need to attend at all.  The original reason for these jollies was to provide a competitive background in which the miniature locomotive could be improved.  I have tried to extract meaningful data from IMLEC write ups, but it is nigh impossible when engine details are so scant.
• I have already covered my views that Roger Backhouse and John Arrowsmith should be let out of the building less often.
• I have been a steam enthusiast for nearly 60 years but I think the Stationary Steam Engine should finally have the skids put under it.  It should have been published as a book, but is probably in ME because a publisher could not be found.
• As to what should be in, write ups of models built are always welcome.  I am not bothered about the subject, I take pleasure in seeing craftsmanship for it’s own sake.
• I would like to see more articles relating to the “why” rather than so much concentration on the “how”.  How to design this and that, for example.  By design, I don’t mean how to draw it in CAD, but how to select the various sizes.  I plan to re-visit my own ME articles on the thermodynamic design of model boilers, for example.  I would concede this might be a specialist view, as most folk appear to be happy just churning out another Sweet Pea to the words and music.
• I welcome articles on pieces of workshop equipment.  Chinese junk might be cheap, but it doesn’t necessarily work very well.  I count Graham Meek and Jacques Maurel as being up there with GHT these days.  I built several pieces from early MEW articles back in the day and have used designs from them to adapt into my own designs – anyone for a Stent / Quorn crossover?
• As others have said, MEW and ME have never been great at covering welding techniques.
• That raises another area, that the hobby appears split to me.  The builders of book case adornments seem to hold sway.  If one has the temerity to build a 4″ scale traction engine, then one is likely to be drummed out of the Brownies.  If one goes as far as 7″ scale, then all hell will break loose.  And yet I see some excellent work running round at steam rallies, which is rarely covered in any detail (back to John Backhouse and John Arrowsmith again!).
• Finally, having occasionally contributed in the past (and hope to in the future) it is very offputting to be faced with pages of Ts & Cs and be submitting bank details etc. just to have the privilege of offering work to Mortons for a pittance.  There was even a period where work offered would disappear into a black hole, never to re-surface.  A more welcoming approach to contributors, please.

I could carry on, but a Christmas Day sherry beckons.

Martin

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

In terms of content generation if this forum is a fair sample of ‘model engineers’ the postings here have gone downhill in recent years in terms of direct relevance and interest. Not sure exactly when this happened but it was definitely pre Covid. There was always 4 or 5 interesting threads going and a lot more about what people were actually making. Much of that seems to have dwindled away to be replaced with grumbles about ‘rip offs’ junk mail and the state of the nation. So if we are anything to go by no wonder the magazines are struggling. What I did today was always in the latest posts but now only pops up occasionally.

Looks like we all need a refresh really.

[Author]

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