Discussion on the Future Direction of Model Engineer and Workshop

[Ian HewsonParticipant @ianhewson99641]

Hi Dave

As you agree, it’s up to me how I spend my money, what I don’t agree with is spending it on something I don’t find bloody good.

I, and I suspect many others agree with me, and continue happily model engineering without buying items that do not interest me.

As to Clubs, my interest in them was dashed as a 16 year old in 1960.

The good suppliers like Arc etc do well out of my custom, but only because the cater for the customers needs,

They don’t expect me to subsidise them, it’s

the way of the world, like it or not.
<p style=”text-align: right;”>Ian</p>

[Ian Hewson]

On Ian Hewson Said:

Hi Dave

As you agree, it’s up to me how I spend my money, what I don’t agree with is spending it on something I don’t find bloody good.

…

The only difference between us is I don’t require magazines to be ‘bloody good’, only that they keep me interested on average.  As the best is the enemy of the good, I think it unwise to insist on the best!

I only suggest anyone who has had value from Model Engineering and wishes it to have a future, should be supportive rather than negative.   Don’t jump ship too soon, she may not be sinking!

Otherwise, I’m with you.  My ex tells me 3 of her Cross-Stitch mags have gone under and I don’t care. If something has no value to me, so what.  However, whilst you may be finished with Model Engineering, I’m not.  My time will come…

Dave

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Dave –

The “abandoners” to whom I refer are those who, like one or two I know, have claimed they abandoned the magazines as containing nothing of interest personally and even denigrate them, but who have not contributed to them either, whether by articles or simply letters.

[Ian HewsonParticipant @ianhewson99641]

Hi Dave What makes you think I am done with model engineering? I am only saying I do not spend money on things that are of no interest to me. If the msg improves then I may well buy items.

I am still enjoying my hobby, without it taking over my life.

Ian

[Simon CollierParticipant @simoncollier74340]

For some years this forum has been, effectively, the MEW Forum, not the ME one. Steam loco people have moved to MECH Forum, some of whom are ME subscribers. Same with Traction Talk. In that sense the opinions above are heavily biased.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Well I finally sat down and ploughed through this over coffee this morning.

I have been taking ME since the late 80’s and MEW since it’s launch. I used to get them from WH Smiths but finally went to subscription when I could no longer scrabble on my knees to find them at the back of the bottom shelf.

I have a complete set of ME going back to Issue 1 (mostly bound) which I still enjoy reading through (i would also like ads kept to the ‘outside’ pages to aid binding btw). However, I have recently considered giving up my ME subscription, although I would have kept MEW going. I would echo much of what has been said here but here are my thoughts.

I am not a big fan of long build series (nor Butterside Down I’m afraid) as I don’t really see the point, unless they are ‘Starter’ projects. If the plans are published (either as printed items or online) then most of the operations involved are pretty similar. I’d much prefer an overview of a model build, perhaps detailing how some of the more complex ‘features’ were made or machined. Jason’s static engine builds on the Model Engineers Website are always interesting – even though I don’t build stationary engines myself. So I’d much prefer shorter articles focusing on particular aspects of making/building. Make every issue have something different and worth reading!

I do read ‘Club News’ – it’s an interesting summary of what’s going on and often amusing. I have no interest at all in 3-4 pages of photos of the recent loco rally at xxxx. I am a member of the G3S, N2.5GA and G1MRA – all of who produce excellent Newsletters/Magazines that detail the events (and people) I’m actually interested in.

Whilst most of my ‘machinery’ is almost as old as I am, I now also own both a 3D printer and a CNC Router. This has required some serious updates to my software skills. My main weapon in this struggle has been Solid Edge (which replaced TurboCAD 2D) but I am in a minority in this choice, with everyone having thier own preferences. I have also recently spent time installing UGS on an RPi5, instead of using my PC for the job. CAM is my latest challenge but Fusion will probably be my CAM ‘bridge’ betwen SE and UGS.

I spend some time tinkering with PicoMites (much to SoD’s dismay) which I find to be very useful. My DRO ‘Remote Display’ is coming along slowly but each problem overcome is a source of joy to my ageing grey cells.

I probably watch more YouTube these days than Television. I have my favorite ‘channels’ and I’ve thought for some time that ME/MEW would benefit from having a content approach similar to Joe Pie (short expert tips), ‘Clickspring’ (consumate craft skills) or Blondihacks (general advice and specifc builds but simply explained).

I would also suggest that any content relating to ‘Tool’ builds should accept that the Chinese have made many projects that might have been made from scratch not so long ago, now pointless given the low costs you can get many common devices for. Much better maybe to describe either tooling that is not commercially available or how to improve what is already out there.

Maybe repeating myself but I although I build small steam locomotives but I don’t really want long articles that have mostly been done many times before. I like to see specific techniques that might solve a problem for me, preferably short and to the point. I don’t work just in metal, so I enjoyed Ashley Best’s Team series for instance. Even though i will never build a tram, I do model in wood for some of my G3 wagon/carriage projects.

So I guess if I had my wish, I would rather merge ME into MEW, rather than the other way around.

As to the title – “The Home Engineer & Modeller” would most neatly describe my interests.

 

Regards,

 

IanT

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

A most absorbing collection of varied opinions presented in this unstructured search for consensus. Many years ago, M.E. included a survey – a sort of ‘multiple choice questionnaire’ across several pages – about what the readership liked & disliked about the content. Whether any changes took place as a result I know not, for shortly after I gave up subscribing, finding less and less of interest.
Not that I was then, nor am now, much good at model engineering but too much of the mags content was becoming peripheral. Seeing the contents on the M.E. mag covers promoted now on this website, has not induced me to buy the magazine again.
I am though for the first time in disagreement with ‘Dave’(aka SoD) and his plea that “If you care about the future of Model Engineering, please buy the magazines, even if they don’t press all your buttons”. Model engineering is surely not a charity but a declining hobby activity serviced by a declining industry (e.g. magazine publishing) that requires genuinely earned profit not donations to survive.
We are, after all, a self-selecting virtually static, population by virtue of our using this site. The very few hard-copy displays of magazines on model engineering or the several websites presumably do nothing to attract potential newcomers to our increasingly expensive activity.

Having acquired over the years an incomplete collection of the M.E. magazines from 1944 until ca. 2007. I think the adoption of it’s more ‘easy-going, populist style’ under Ted Joliffe marked the beginning of its decline. For certain, I’ll often pick up a bound volume from before that era and find the contents eminently more interesting than later editions with their more “handyman style” of articles typified by such as “Constructing a garage door opener” (M.E. 175, 4000, 1995).

I’m in agreement with those disliking long construction series. Perhaps as a positive input, I’m much more interested in a builder’s mistakes and problems how they corrected them. The likes of Martin Evans and a long, long series about a building a loco he/they have never actually constructed leads to rancour when the design and drawings are just plain ‘wrong’. (I write from personal experience). So more articles about construction failures & problems – large and small with their rectification methods would be a welcome improvement.

Despite the negative comments, so much derided by ‘Dave’ (above), along with many others I fear for the future of model engineering. Apologies for drifting off-topic but 2 M E Societies I know of, report the absence of any new junior members for several years. The reasons, I suppose, are many and sadly familiar to us fathers and grandfathers of teenagers. Advice to change the lack of interest welcomed.
To quote LBSC “nuff said”.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

This touches on a different issue. It’s not one of “what we (the current subscribers) want” but surely what future subscribers might want or need?

Somewhere back earlier in this thread, someone mentioned ‘Makers’. I was reminded of this later when watching a YouTube from a guy who uses CNC to make aluminium parts for his robotic vehicles. He doesn’t describe himself as an ‘Engineer’ or ‘Modeller’ but as a ‘Maker’ – so I guess that’s the fashionable term these days.

I also thought about the membership of the various Societies I’m a member of. When I started in Gauge 3, it was essentially a scratch building gauge and scale. There wasn’t very much commercial support and members either built their own stock (and track) or purchased ‘vintage’ items. These days, the choice of commercial G3 products is very much larger and this has attracted a wider membership. However, we have also seen a resurgence in scratch building, mostly based on 3D print, laser cutting and CNC.

The quality of some recent member ‘builds’ has been extremely high – some are museum quality. This new tech has also enables new ‘cottage industries’ to emerge – where enthusiasts have turned their ‘tech’ expertise into mini-businesses using tools that would simply not have been affordable a few years back.

So perhaps ME has to find a way to pivot in these new directions and whilst still catering for their existing readers, also start catering for potential new (Maker) ones too.

Maybe that new title should be “The Model Engineer & Maker”  🙂

Regards,

 

IanT

 

 

[IanT]

On IanT Said:

[…] Maybe that new title should be “The Model Engineer & Maker”  🙂

 

 

We could then have endless forum Topics discussing the semantics of those terms

…. Aagghhh !!

MichaelG.

[mike TParticipant @miket56243]

<p style=”text-align: left;”>Michael how about</p>
“Moaning engineer and hobbyhorse”

[Mike HurleyParticipant @mikehurley60381]

Noting the prevalence of companies that re-brand themselves these days ( using ‘clever’ marketing companies) by removing all the vowels from the original name e.g BRSK, ABRDN Etc so nobody has a clue who they are anymore I humbly suggest

MDLNGNR & MW
<p style=”text-align: center;”>sorry, couldn’t resist</p>
 

 

[Ian Hewson]

On Ian Hewson Said:

Hi Dave What makes you think I am done with model engineering?

Whoops my bad.  When I typed ” Don’t jump ship too soon, she may not be sinking!” I was thinking of the magazines,  not the whole hobby!  Have to plead guilty,  the ambiguity is a mistake.

I am still enjoying my hobby, without it taking over my life.

Hurrah!  Me too.

Ian

Cheers,

Dave

[IanT]

On IanT Said:

This touches on a different issue. It’s not one of “what we (the current subscribers) want” but surely what future subscribers might want or need?

Regards,

 

IanT

 

 

I’m pretty sure Neil’s objective will be to better please current subscribers so he keeps them and move in a direction that attracts new subscribers too.

I would suggest the ideal mix of content would reflect and relate to what people actually do in their own workshops irrespective of whether or not they buy the magazine. So both current and potential future subscribers really.

[IanT]

On IanT Said:

So perhaps ME has to find a way to pivot in these new directions and whilst still catering for their existing readers, also start catering for potential new (Maker) ones too.

Maybe that new title should be “The Model Engineer & Maker”  🙂

 

 

 

Model Engineers are a declining subset of Makers…

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I’m fairly old, so obviously don’t understand these things very well Nick, so I looked ‘Maker’ up on Wikipedia.

“The maker culture is a contemporary subculture representing a technology-based extension of DIY culture that intersects with hardware-oriented parts of hacker culture and revels in the creation of new devices as well as tinkering with existing ones. The maker culture in general supports open-source hardware. Typical interests enjoyed by the maker culture include engineering-oriented pursuits such as electronics, robotics, 3-D printing, and the use of computer numeric control tools, as well as more traditional activities such as metalworking, woodworking, and its predecessor, traditional arts and crafts.

The subculture stresses a cut-and-paste approach to standardized hobbyist technologies, and encourages cookbook re-use of designs published on websites and maker-oriented publications. There is a strong focus on using and learning practical skills and applying them to reference designs. There is also growing work on equity and the maker culture.”

It seems to me if you cut out the ‘fancy’ BS words (much overused these days unfortunately) then quite a lot of this description could apply to some of the things that I (and others here) already get up to. Whilst I have no interest in joining a ‘Maker Community’ (or my local MES for that matter) I will certainly watch my Grandsons progress with his new Python ‘Coding’ course with great interest (although we used to call it “Programing” in my day!).

I’m curious what projects they will have him working on once he has the basics. If it’s connected in any way to the ‘Maker’ movement, then maybe his projects will start to connect to the real world in some sense? (Weather Stations, Science Projects, Robotics etc). Admittedly, I have no skills in Python but I may well be able to help him with CAD design, 3D Print and (hopefully real soon) any CNC support he might need. I’d welcome this, as at the moment our only common touchpoint appears to be via Minecraft Dungeons!  🙁

I posted recently about how the ‘new’ world changes so quickly now. The best/cheapest/fastest products this year won’t stay on top for ever. New things will come along and displace them (or obsolete) them. I have over a hundred and twenty years of ME volumes on my shelves and I still enjoy reading them but you can’t keep reprinting basically the same stuff year after year. The technology changed slowly back then but that’s no longer true.

I think having the occasional “cookbook design” for younger readers (or their Grandads) might be quite interesting. After all, you are going to run out of Geometer articles to reprint eventually!

Regards,

IanT – Amateur Machinist, Model Maker and Grandad

P.S. ……and unrepentant BASIC Programmer 🙂

 

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Ian

Whilst I fully appreciate that you felt the need to research ‘Maker’ … it suddenly occurred to me that there is a long tradition of its use.

Here are the first few ‘trades’ that sprang to mind:

Watchmaker

Clockmaker

Pattern-maker

Instrument-maker

Toolmaker

.

MichaelG.

 

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Not sure how that helps Michael.

The local maker space to Marshall House has a very well equipped workshop. To use any of the machines the Maker must have completed the training on that machine and then is able to start it using their access card. Much of what they do is wood and other materials but some metal machining does take place. I can’t remember the numbers involved but 3000+ rings a bell and that’s just a small area of London. The point is there is an appetite to make things.

[Martin Kyte]

On Martin Kyte Said:

Not sure how that helps Michael.

[…]

It doesn’t “Help” at all Martin … and it wasn’t intended to

I was merely reflecting-upon how a once-familiar term now has a fresh life.

MichaelG.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Well “maker” means something to me Michael but I wasn’t sure what “Maker” might mean to others, so I thought I’d best check. I’m of an age where I can say things that seem perfectly intelligible to me (and Grandma) but leave my Grandchildren absolutely baffled – even my sons don’t always understand my references. Likewise, I certainly don’t understand some of the terms and acronyms that get bandied around on our families WhatsApp (I quietly Google them to look cool!) 🙂

I was thinking about this again last night and wondered how many 3D Printers and 3018 type CNC machines have been sold in the UK recently, compared to small metal working lathes and mills? (I know, not directly comparable but…) 3D printing had certainly changed the railway modelling world over the past few years. Once you have the basic ‘design’ (STL or DXF etc) the choice of working scale is just a click away these days – a far cry from when scale choice was often based on the commercial product availability of your preferred prototype. Nowadays, it’s design one, make many – if you want to.

Mention has been made of Percival Marshall and LBSC in this thread but they were (at the time) real pioneers in their respective fields. I suspect they would be very busy exploring this new technology (for New readers + New methods) if it had been available to them. Time changes and things move on. I’m not suggesting a screaming hand-brake turn into “Making” for ME/MEW – simply a recogition that times and tastes are changing.

Now I’m off down the shed to get on with the (second) rebuild of my vintage Atlas MF mill! Then some babysitting this afternoon and (if I’m not completely exhusted) another go at CNC this evening back in the warm! 🙂

Happy Christmas Everyone!

Regards,

 

IanT

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Whilst we are all debating what name the new combined magazine should have, it needs to be remembered that it needs to appeal, not only to the converted (Like us) but to appeal to those not yet involved in the hobby.

It needs to arouse their curiosity and to an extent, their awe. (Not so much that they despair of matching the standards)

If what is now looking to be the sole UK magazine for an amateur machinist does not attract newcomers, the magazine and the hobby will die before I don a wooden overcoat

We all, participants and publishers, need to attract newcomers, and to foster and train them.

Don’t fall into the trap that follows!

I have left a club because it seems obsessed with locomotives and positively averse to providing “taster sessions” to attract new members.

Fortunately, I have been put in contact with a charity which seeks to do that as an aid to mental health, and look forward to starting!

Howard

[Fowlers Fury]

On Fowlers Fury Said:

…
I am though for the first time in disagreement with ‘Dave’(aka SoD) and his plea that “If you care about the future of Model Engineering, please buy the magazines, even if they don’t press all your buttons”.

Disagreeing with me is allowed.  All I ask is a logical reason.

 

Model engineering is surely not a charity but a declining hobby activity serviced by a declining industry (e.g. magazine publishing) that requires genuinely earned profit not donations to survive.

Charity begins at home.   The magazines and Model Engineers are a partnership.   Seems to be that those who knock the magazine haven’t realised the content is almost all written by Model Engineers for Model Engineers.  I hope critics understand that offensive ignorant complaints are likely to put new authors off!  As writers aren’t well paid, why bother working hard for a bunch of ingrates?  The problem I have with some critics is one or more of, they:

1. can’t explain what they want in advance.  Despite that they expect the poor author and editors to tune into their whims.
2. are incapable of writing anything themselves,
3. object to almost everything: too long/too short; too complicated/too simple; not enough pictures/too many pictures; too new/too retro; too specialised/too general etc, etc.  Plus an expectation that spelling, grammar, layout must all be perfect.

 

 

Despite the negative comments, so much derided by ‘Dave’ (above), along with many others I fear for the future of model engineering.

I fear for the future too, but whatever other faults I have, I am not a surrender monkey.  The reason I campaign against unmitigated negativity is because defeatism rots from within and it’s infectious.  Sour opinions give outsiders a bad impression, and undermine what others are doing to solve problems.   That defeatists have run out of ideas does not mean that everyone else is baffled too.   To my mind criticism is only acceptable when done positively: an “I hate everything” rant is toxic, but it’s always good to explain what’s wrong with a way of fixing it.

I don’t blame anyone for losing faith and it may be an inevitable part of the ageing process.  Happen to be poorly myself at the moment, forcing me out of the workshop and making it hard to concentrate in my trusty Armchair.  There’s been a sense of humour failure and I make even more mistakes than normal!  Frustration cubed.   Poor health may have ripped most of the pleasure out of a very enjoyable hobby, but the problem is me, not Model Engineering!   If I have to give up, I’m determined not to flounce off in an aggrieved huff, leaving a mess behind!

 

Apologies for drifting off-topic but 2 M E Societies I know of, report the absence of any new junior members for several years. The reasons, I suppose, are many and sadly familiar to us fathers and grandfathers of teenagers. Advice to change the lack of interest welcomed.

Lack of interest in technology isn’t the problem.  The issue is lack of interest in Model Engineering technology, which I’d sum up as: metal, lathes, mills, drills, saws, steam, engines and railways.  (Plus clocks and similar.)  Possibly compounded by the hobby being dominated by elderly men, some of whom demand respect when they’re out-of-date in their own field, are blissfully unaware there’s more to engineering than hammers and spanners, and rely on past experience rather than thinking!

My “What do You Make” survey has 3 or 4 responses noting clubs failing miserably to welcome new members.  Me too! Seems the problem here is a schism between old and new school engineering.  Clubs and the hobby generally need to do much better at “meet and greet”.

There’s nothing wrong with what we do except it’s become a subset, and maybe one that appears to be stuck in the past.

Today Model Engineering has to compete with many other technical hobbies, and new arrivals will want to know what’s in it for them.   A great deal I suggest, because a Model Engineering workshop can make things that aren’t available off-the-shelf.    That super-power is invaluable to a maker, because their reliance on assembling manufactured parts fails when anything unusual is needed.

Model Engineers are only stuck in the past if they want to be.   But we have to recognise that along the way, Model Engineering is no longer leading the pack.   Therefore I think it would pay to invert our welcome at the meet and greet stage away from “we make steam locos using expensive machine tools one of which absolutely must be an Imperial Myford” to “We can make almost anything in metal, and know about CAD, electronics, and maker methods.  What can we do for you?”

So, stop telling youngsters about Whitworth, how they should start with a lathe and making a tap-holder, and assuming their goal is the same as ours was 50 years ago!   Likewise, the magazines have to move forward, widening the scope away from what’s become “traditional”, even though it never was.   Just read a 1960 ME magazine with an article on High Test Peroxide, which hardly fits with a perception that Model Engineering was simple hands-on workshopping back in the good old days.

Question for clubs: how many run an outreach scheme, and if not, why not?

Dave

 

To quote LBSC “nuff said”.

Probably not – this is a BIG multi-faceted problem.  The issues are complicated and opinion varies.  I don’t know the answer.   Though thoroughly intimidated, I won’t give up without a fight.

Dave

 

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

Whilst I can empathise with Dave’s plea to keep the magazine afloat. I cannot justify the subscription for something which I will be very unlikely to read. Especially if the content does not relate to my new hobby direction.

My experience of joining a Model Engineering Society, or Club is not good. The members of the governing body view a newcomer with suspicion. If he or she has a knowledge base which exceeds the “elitist members” then the newcomer might be considered to be after the Chairman’s job. In other words they feel their position is under threat. Personally I would not touch any such position with a barge pole. Then there are those who despise, or envy someone because of their skills. They hate them, rather than befriending them and trying to learn from them. By doing so extend their own skill base.

I was under the impression that the name of the magazine to be a done thing, I for one was unaware it was open for discussion. I thought this debate was about content of the new magazine?

As a “Toolmaker” by trade, I have always preferred the term Home Machinist to describe my hobby activities. The term Model Engineer conjures up the idea of a perfect example of an “Engineer”.

Plus today the word engineer has been used to cover a multitude of trades some of which are not connected with Engineering, (Mechanical), Domestic Engineer springs to mind for one.

Lastly I do not consider the youngsters of today have any interest in making anything. They have been cossetted into having their hearts desire being supplied by their electrical device. Their interests lie in a Virtual world, not smelly and dirty reality. They are not educated to have curiosity about anything. The homework for children these days consists of multiple choice boxes. They are bound to get the right answer because the App will not let them continue with the next question until they have the right answer to the previous one.

I apologise if I paint a bleak picture, it is not intentional, it is a picture based firmly on experience. As my dear Old Grandmother used to say, “Experience is the greatest of Teachers, but her wages are high”

Regards

Gray,

 

 

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

Sorry ‘Dave’ to read of your armchair confinement, get well soon. Your commitment to the cause of positivism here is commendable even though IMHO futile. Why? perhaps because my blasphemous view is that the future of interchange on model engineering lies on sites such as this one, The Model Engineering Clearing House (https://modeleng.proboards.com/) and other global websites ~ rather than ultimately in hard copy magazines.
Are the numerous variety of responses herein not some evidence of that?

‘Dave’ earlier quoted Voltaire’s “As the best is the enemy of the good“. We don’t appear to be moving towards a consensus definition of either ‘best’ or ‘good’ with respect to the M.E. magazine(s) – just a dislike of interminable construction series. The main forums (fora) for other hobbies are becoming increasingly www based (e.g. photography, gardening, DIY, cars etc). Is it not the same for daily newspapers as they increasingly rely on advertising and subscription revenue from web editions? Inevitably, I fell sure that’ll be the way with the few remaining model engineering magazines as we oldies leave the field and new recruits become fewer.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

The number of forum members who’ve had a bad a club experience is worrying!   I enjoy Geoff Theasby’s Club stuff mostly because of his jokes, but it’s also interesting to know what they’re up to.  Mostly harmless!

Maybe the new mag could add zest to Club News and encourage them to improve by sending in a undercover inspector to do a Michelin Star type review.   Honest assessment published in the mag, then discussed on the forum.  Laurel crown or kicks lower down as appropriate.

Thus my club, the Society of Duffers, might be reviewed thus:  A pompous Arduino fanboy pinned me into a corner for an hour to insist BASIC is not orthogonal.  Exam at the end which I failed. Told I was an ex-toolmaker, he said dirty artisans weren’t welcome, though the committee might relent because the bogs needed cleaning.  Later, I saw him spitting into my tea, which was cold.    Joined immediately.  At the initiation ceremony, my bare bottom was painted with engineers blue.  After 6 months no-one has spoken to me yet.  Five stars, highly recommended! 

🙂

Dave

 

[ANDY CAWLEYParticipant @andycawley24921]

This reply echos my views precisely, I will also continue my subscription.

[Author]

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