Disappointment out ways the anticipation.

[Me.Participant @me]

Having been on the hunt for a  surface grinder to add to my workshop i finally took the plunge on a Burdett 70 – I’m more than happy with my purchase and a good clean and basic maintenance regime has brought this up to a workable machine.

I then went on the hunt for sundry items – one of which was fellow Burdett users for likeminded exchange of details and help –  this so far has proved a fruitless search.

Next on the list was a manual – the manual seemed to be the easy item to source through Lathes.co.uk, a quick search of the database turned up the manual and the item purchased…. manual now received and no more than 5 minutes to read I realised it to be no help at all….. the info contained was no more than very basic with no real detail at all….. was it usual for machine manufacturers to issue manuals with no helpful details, It seems like this manual left all the basic details to the owner to work out for themselves….

 

Still on the search for a fellow Burdett 70 surface grinder user to exchange details…. anyone want a Burdett 70 manual going cheap… only read once….

 

[DiogenesParticipant @diogenes]

What is that you need to know?

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

Seems to be common at least for the more basic machines. There must be hundreds if not thousands of Eagle grinders about though I’ve yet to hear of an operator’s manual. At least they have the oil type on the machine tag.

I think that a couple of good pieces of reference material on general grinding practices would have far more value.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

I bought the Centec manual from the same source, it was not cheap and I was not impressed, there was more info on the net for free ! Print quality and paper were good ! Noel.

[Me.]

On 25 May 2024 at 22:37 Me. Said:

,.. was it usual for machine manufacturers to issue manuals with no helpful details, It seems like this manual left all the basic details to the owner to work out for themselves….

Very much so, then and now.   This is a professional tool, which when new, cost more than all but a super-rich hobbyist could afford. Industrial customers provided in-house training or bought it in.  Considerable effort was put into obtaining skills with Apprenticeships and other schemes.  The manuals provided are often no more than quick start guides, identifying controls and maintenance requirements, but emphatically not describing how to use it.

Buying a car is much the same.   The manuals provided don’t explain how to drive it.  They only explain the instrument panel, what grade of fuel is needed, service intervals, and other superficial information.   New drivers have to go elsewhere to learn the rules of the road, and develop the physical skills needed to steer, accelerate, brake, and navigate in traffic without hitting anything.

As an interesting aside, a few months ago I read an article pointing out that US drivers are below average compared with the rest of the developed world.   Said to be because the US allows very young drivers on the road, and mostly doesn’t have a stiff theory exam or require new drivers to demonstrate actual on-the-road competences.  Driving round bollards in a car-park isn’t the same!

Like as not new drivers are trained by their parents, inheriting many bad-habits, and it seems most states have no equivalent to the annual MOT test, during which a garage confirms that the vehicle is roadworthy.

Not so sure about this one myself, but also suggested that learning on an automatic undermines other road skills.  This because it takes more on-the-road practice to master a manual gearbox,  whilst the extra eye-hand-foot coordination needed boosts overall driving skills – manual drivers have to concentrate on driving more, planning gear changes ahead, and are generally more in control of the vehicle.

None of this is covered by the manual that comes with the car!

Dave

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

The manual for my Ingar RT-612 manual operation SG comprises 6 A4 pages :

Page 1 is contents.

Page 2 is specifications.

Page 3 is description of main charcteristics of the machine , starting up (basically unpack the machine & accessories, bolt it down & llevel it, mount a wheel & how the on-off switch for the spindle motor works !) and lubrication (use ISO 32 hydraulic oil everywhere) – with a note that you may need to grind the top of the magnetic chuck to “match it to the machine”.

Page 4 is a sectional parts diagram.

Page 5 is the machine footrprint diagram

Page 6 is the wiring diagram (a 3 phase motor with an on-off switch).

I guess the assumtion by the makers was that if you bought the machine you already knew how to use one.

I can’t say I have ever heard of a Burdett 70 SG. I don’t ever recall having seen one anywhere, though the lathes.uk online brochure scans show a heavier duty machine along the lines of a J & S 540 that would have been at home in a decent toolroom. A quick look around doesn’t bring up much info on the company, though I did find one reference to Burdett being taken over by Elliots in 1966, which would tie up with the rather ’50s -’60s lookiing brochure scans.

You might have an uphill battle trying to find info on a 50-ish year old (or older) specialist machine from a minor manufacturer.

Nigel B.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, the three Burdett surface grinders, shown in the scan below, were available in 1963.

Regards Nick.

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

I don’t think manufacturers of any UK built machine tools produced a fully itemised manual.  There was no way that manuals could be reproduced easily and keep track of all the changes, some machines may have been sold with a small set of assembly drawings and a general operation manual. Machines were produced in batches and modifications were made fairly regularly, even batch to batch, so the only way to get the right part was to ring the manufacturer with the serial number of the machine to request the part.  The builders obviously had all the original drawings which itemised the parts, all the variations could be compared by looking at different release dates of the layout drawings. Of course now that all these machine builders have gone all the historical documentation has gone as well.

[Me.Participant @me]

Thanks one and all for your responses – I totally understand the reasons behind the explanations and can see that an all singing and dancing manual wouldn’t be something that the big manufacturers would produce.

It would be nice to have had a basic note on some items in the manual – even the basics like “the spindle has a left hand thread holding the wheel on” or where it refers to the hydraulic pump and oil tank “sits in its own tray” and then goes on to say ” this is easily removeable for servicing” ….. is it ? I can’t see how without having to remove most of the pipework and draining the tank….  a small hint would be good…… !

It seems I will have to try to work it out for myself – ive managed to get most of the grinder apart for a good clean so I’m sure i can sort the rest.

 

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Nigel B, no gears in an EV which is what is being pushed on the population, but then again, they are also trying to make cars self driving. Two things that the government should have consulted with independent engineers about rather than those involved with a vested interest. Why do governments always forget the historical failures of a command economy?

On the subject of manuals it has always struck me that the typical manual supplied with modern machines in the UK were inferior to the ones available for the same or very similar offerings from sellers in the USA such as Grizzly or Harbour Freight.

Martin C

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

Shouldn’t the title be ‘outweighs’, not ‘out ways’ ?

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

This is why we had 5 year apprenticeships

Roy

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

On 25 May 2024 at 22:37 Me. Said:

,.. was it usual for machine manufacturers to issue manuals with no helpful details, It seems like this manual left all the basic details to the owner to work out for themselves….

I read an article pointing out that US drivers are below average compared with the rest of the developed world.   Said to be because the US allows very young drivers on the road, and mostly doesn’t have a stiff theory exam or require new drivers to demonstrate actual on-the-road competences.  Driving round bollards in a car-park isn’t the same!

Like as not new drivers are trained by their parents, inheriting many bad-habits, and it seems most states have no equivalent to the annual MOT test, during which a garage confirms that the vehicle is roadworthy.

Not so sure about this one myself, but also suggested that learning on an automatic undermines other road skills.  This because it takes more on-the-road practice to master a manual gearbox,  whilst the extra eye-hand-foot coordination needed boosts overall driving skills – manual drivers have to concentrate on driving more, planning gear changes ahead, and are generally more in control of the vehicle.

None of this is covered by the manual that comes with the car!

Dave

i am confused how did we get from a manual for a grinder to slagging off a entire nations driving ability

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

Nigel B, no gears in an EV which is what is being pushed on the population

?

You have me rather confused here Martin – I cannot see anything I have written that has mentioned EVs, gearboxes or otherwise in the context of surface grinder manuals.

As it happens, there is quite a substantial multi-stage reduction gearbox between the electric motor and differential in an EV, but I still don’t see what that has to do with my post about the manual that came with my manual SG.

Nigel B.

[martin haysom]

On martin haysom Said:

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

On 25 May 2024 at 22:37 Me. Said:

,.. was it usual for machine manufacturers to issue manuals with no helpful details, It seems like this manual left all the basic details to the owner to work out for themselves….

I read an article pointing out that US drivers are below average compared with the rest of the developed world.
…

None of this is covered by the manual that comes with the car!

Dave

i am confused how did we get from a manual for a grinder to slagging off a entire nations driving ability

The clue is in the last sentence:  None of this is covered by the manual that comes with the car!

My message is don’t expect a machine to come with comprehensive instructions on how to use it.   It’s almost always necessary to learn more, and how well a machine is operated later depends on the quality of the extra learning.

I’m not slagging off an entire nation’s driving ability, merely reporting what I read!   Facts are facts, even if uncomfortable.  On the face of it US driving could be improved by altering the way US drivers are trained.  Whether US standards are worth improving is up to them.   It’s just an example.

Plenty of iffy-driving on British roads.  Roughly half of all British drivers are below our national average…

Dave

 

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Oops, sorry Nigel B. I mixed up the post that I was responding to which was the one before, by SOD, with yours.

Martin C

[John Doe 2]

On John Doe 2 Said:

Shouldn’t the title be ‘outweighs’, not ‘out ways’ ?

Thanks

[John Doe 2]

On John Doe 2 Said:

Shouldn’t the title be ‘outweighs’, not ‘out ways’ ?

Hopefully; when I bought my little Herbert, the latter was far more appropriate.
I spent the first Covid lockdown teaching myself how to scrape the ways back into some sort of alignment. 🙂

Bill

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

The Abrasive Machining section over on Practical Machinists forum is pretty good.

Running a grinder varies little between machines compared to the actual process of  grinding successfully.
The details are mostly where the various controls are, not what they do.

Dave

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

^^^ What Dave S said.

There are various books on the subject, such as Grinding Technology by Krar, that are useful for the whys, wherefores and techniques. But some of the finer aspects come down to listening to ‘old’ grinder hands and a lot of it comes down to experience.

[Me.Participant @me]

Thanks again for all the replies but its not how to grind manual i need – thats not the issue – the reason for the need of a manual is to work out how to service and maintain the machine, what bit needs be taken off to get to another bit….that sort of manual.

I’m slowly working my way through the machine and have worked out how to do this. I’m at a stage where i can even think about a repaint and rebuild.

Some spares are needed but i’m sure these will be readily available form the vast expanse of NOS old stock parts…..

that was a joke BTW…….

 

[Author]

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