digital tv switchover

[michael howarth 1Participant @michaelhowarth1]

[blisterParticipant @blister]

Oh I get it, we can talk about this crap which has nothing to do with model engineering but we can’t talk about ‘Gulliver’ on this site, to the point where it was suggested that ‘Gulliver was told to go somewhere else.

Well moderated David!!

 

Smells like Hypocracy to me.

 

Phil

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi Blister

Apart from you no one has complained about this thread.

Whereas Gulliver generated dozens of complaints.

However, I will delete all the posts in this thread except yours so members know why I deleted the posts.

regards David

 

[Keith Wardill 1Participant @keithwardill1]

Great – so where is the missing content?. A number of members exchanging information of interest to them, until some miserable Blisterer complains, then suddenly it all disappears. Having just spent an hour putting together a detailed reply to try and help someone, it disappears along with all the other material after 5 minutes.

Some days ago I seem to remember some comments in here about a forum being a place to exchange friendly comments and information, then this happens. What is the point of the ‘ignore member’ facility?

 

Anyone know of any good forums anywhere else where free speech and comment is not deleted with no warning, ’cause that sure aint the case here.?

 

[John CoatesParticipant @johncoates48577]

Jesus David that was so over the top I am genuinely surprised at your reaction

 

I’d posted about my experience with Freesat HD which I believed contained some useful information and relevant to the topic but now I find it has been the subject of your high handed strop

 

Obviously we can only talk about stuff that blister finds acceptable

 

Absolutely appalling and unforgiveable. The worst moderation I have ever experienced in all my years on internet forums

 

A very pissed off John

[Rob keevesParticipant @robkeeves73950]

Humm, 1 thead as opposed to who knows how many, just helping with some good honest free advice.

[Anonymous]

Bizarre, one ‘complaint’ and the thread gets deleted. Not only that but the complainer has contributed nothing to this forum except sarcasm and whining about free subscription gifts not being available to him.

 

Andrew

[blisterParticipant @blister]

wow,

Apologies to all.

David deletes and I get the blame..

You have singled me out beautifully on this one considering I was only making a point and not demanding the thread be erased!

As I said before David, “well moderated”

You have to love a ‘knee jerk’ reaction

I don’t mind taking the fall on this one…someone has to.

 

Phil

 

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

Not your fault Blister as was slightly out of the remit of this website. However many people found it informative and it could have saved members money if they were about to be bamboozled by the ‘Con Artists’, may have been able to afford the subscription for ME or MEW (not shouting) with the money saved. I have seen far worse on this site with personal attacks and backbiting plus personal histories being let run.

 

By the way there is a link to engineering as the aerials are built to quite tight tolerances with element spacing and length defining optimum working frequency and gain. These are derived from precise mathematical formulae and each type of aerial is ENGINEERED (shouting intended) to meet specific parameters.

 

Anybody taking bets on how long this post will be viewable for .

 

The Old Scrote Martin

 

aka

 

The Wrinkled Retainer

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

It’s a real shame that despite all the complex engineering involved, the commercial freeview digital channels here in Australia are showing such a load of old, repeated, not at all good, rubbish. Seventeen channels in total, and about twelve channels of digital drivel!

Sorry if its OT

Bill Pudney

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi all

 

Martin has hit the nail on the head, if you think you require an aerial then pls contact an CAI (Confedration of Aerial Industies) approved installer, who will give good and reliable information. As for the switchover some people may reqire a new aerial due to the channel allocations moving, some aerials are channel banded i.e. 21-36 and this can cause problems, if for instance the BBC multiplex moves to Ch 42 you wont be able to receive the BBC channels. The output power of the transmitters will increse quite a bit when the analogue channels are turned off but if for instace you have what we have at the moment where Oxford TX is still transmitting analogue and Sandy isnt the output power of two multiplexes from sandy are still at reduced power, you may find that your reciver cant receive all the channels untill the other TX has switched off its analogue transmitters. I dont recommend cascading amplifiers all sorts of problems may arise, also a basic amplifier cannot distinguish between signal and noise and amplifi the whole lot together you are very lucky if this works well.

 

P.S Most aerials sold over the counter these days are wideband and cover the whole spectrum.

 

i am not employed by the CAI.

 

16Yrs experiance tho.

 

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Posted By Rob keeves on 17/08/2011 20:11:53.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

The moral is to try your set-top digibox (or brand new digital TV, if you have splashed out) with your existing aerial, before being lured or stampeded into a new one. I”m in South Manchester, with pretty much line of sight to the powerful Winter Hill transmitter about 18 miles away. All my aerials are in the loft, and the old ones have worked fine since changeover a couple of years back.

 

Another tip – if you have bought a digibox, don”t discard your old video recorder. Take the analogue output from the digibox into the VCR, and thence to the analogue TV. You can then record programs, though you can”t watch one channel while recording another, or do all the fancy tricks which the new digital recorders can manage.

 

Andy.

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Posted By Andyf on 17/08/2011 22:20:14.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Posted by Rob keeves on 17/08/2011 20:11:53:

The output power of the transmitters will increse quite a bit when the analogue channels are turned off but if for instace you have what we have at the moment where Oxford TX is still transmitting analogue and Sandy isnt the output power of two multiplexes from sandy are still at reduced power, you may find that your reciver cant receive all the channels untill the other TX has switched off its analogue transmitters.

 

 

Well blow me down; that”s answered a question I had about the changeover, thanks Rob!

 

I knew that the transmitter power output was supposed to be boosted once all the analogue channels had been switched off. I”m fairly close to Sandy Heath and the reception is worse after the big switchover than before. I couldn”t square that with the supposed power increase; not surprising really since it apparently hasn”t happened yet. Anybody know when it is likely to happen?

 

Regards,

 

Andrew

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Posted By Andrew Johnston on 17/08/2011 22:34:43.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

I”ve been looking forward to the analogue switchoff with an allegedly increase in DAB transmission power! Handy for 5 live sport in the workshop.

 

How can you watch TV in a workshop? Shouldn”t you be watching the job?

 

Derry.

PS just joshing.

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Posted By Derry Hincks on 17/08/2011 22:41:31.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Andrew, i like you are fed from sandy here are the dates to look out for:

14th Sept 2011 Arqiva B multiplex (commercal) moves to Ch48 full power

28th Sept 2011 Oxford Analogue switchoff

31st Aug 2011 SDN multiplex (commercal) will move temp to Ch31

23rd Nov 2011 Arqiva A multiplex (commercal) moves to Ch51 full power

18th Apr 2012 SDN multiplex moves to Ch 51 full power

 

Until 27th June 2012 Digital multiplex 3,4 and HD will be using a temp aerial to transmit on, full power possibly after this date.

 

Pls note: full power on any multiplex may not be the full 1000KW Avalible and also note that some multiplexes are out of band for older aerials the old ch”s were very close together at the bottom of the fequency spectrum used for tv.

 

old channels.

21=Ch 4

24=ITV

27=BBC2

31=BBC1

 

hope this helps

 

Rob.

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Posted By Rob keeves on 17/08/2011 23:23:28.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi Rob,

 

Thanks for the information. Looks like I need to sit tight and wait for things to improve. I had to switch to a broadband antenna when I first got a digital TV (secondhand from a mate who was upgrading). Other than that I don”t watch enough TV to make it worthwhile investing more money. It”s a waste of workshop time!

 

Regards,

 

Andrew

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Posted By Andrew Johnston on 18/08/2011 09:10:02.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

It”s actually dead easy to install a dish – you don”t need to go through SKY to just get the Freeasat services. Screwfix were doing a Freesat box and dish for under £50 at one time.

 

W.

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Posted By WALLACE on 18/08/2011 16:20:19.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Posted by WALLACE on 18/08/2011 16:20:19:

It”s actually dead easy to install a dish – you don”t need to go through SKY to just get the Freeasat services. Screwfix were doing a Freesat box and dish for under £50 at one time.

 

W.

And I bought one of the Freesat HD ones for £69. Got a signal quality of 65-70% and it found 200+ channels but once I”d removed the pay for view and the duplicates (several Channel 4”s and BBC for every region) we ended up with 50 channels and no HD (BBC1 or ITV1) so it went back for a refund as it was no better than normal Freeview through the digital telly

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Posted By John Coates on 18/08/2011 16:38:44.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Is there an easy way to line the dish to get Sky or Freesat without a meter? The physical installation I understand to be easy, it”s getting the dish pointing the right way that could be the problem, esp. without a meter.

 

I know the dish has to be aligned both in the correct east/west direction as it were and at an angle to the horizontal, but in which direction and at what angle, and how to do it without a meter?

 

Chris

 

PS And I have had to write this again as this website thought I wasn”t logged in when I had just done so. This is getting to be beyond a joke.

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Posted By ChrisH on 18/08/2011 17:36:06.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

To install a dish for freesat or sky you need to point the dish 28.2° E with an inclanation of 10° its posibble without a meter but to be honest it would take time and patience, with the Astra satalites there are two bands transmitted, high and low Feq bands these are polarised horizontal and vertical to get all the programs the azimuth has to be pritty well spot on. To add to the problem if you are after freesat than the EPG (electronic programme guide) is transmitted from the Eurobird satalite located 28.5° E whilst its pictures are picked up from the Astra satalites located 28.2° E.

 

You can get cheep LED type meters from Maplin i dont know how good these are personally but i have heard several people use them with success.

 

Rob.

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Posted By Rob keeves on 18/08/2011 19:53:50.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Chris

You can scan the sky but it is a bit needle in a haystack as you need to be within a couple of degrees to get anything. With patience it can be done. Look at the direction and tilt of local dishes to get started. There are a few good websites, googling sky dish direction will find a few. http://www.satcure.co.uk is not bad. A cheap satmeter is not that useful as you will find loads of other sats but it does give you a clue as to the needed elevation, you then track around the arc of sats in the sky until you find Astra 2 or whatever you want.

 

For a Sky digibox key Services -4-6 to get the signal strenth and quality indicators, trim the elevation and azimuth to maximise.

 

As someone who does design, build and evaluate high performance yagi arrays for a hobby, I would advise anyone to suck it and see after the changeover date even if you use a low group antenna and the mpx goes to 42 or whatever. Nearly every TV antenna is very broadband for a yagi, If you get a decent picture AFTER the changeover then goodenough is goodenough.

 

Billy.

 

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Posted By Billy Mills on 18/08/2011 20:21:54.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

I have to agree with Billy tn that it is well worth to suck and see, there is one known problem i have come across with one perticular freeview set-top box by Phillips but made by Sagem retailed by the Commet/Dixons group for about £30. For some reason they wont recive the BBC multiplexes in and around the Sandy transmitter ,ive come across well over a dozen cases of this and one person had them dotted all over the house. Put the meter on and all is fine, put another box on and its fine, this is more than likely due to iffey software in the boxes.

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Posted By Rob keeves on 18/08/2011 20:42:16.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Rob is generally correct about his alignment procedure, except that it probably isn”t clear where to point the antenna. From UK, all geostationary satellites are towards the South, and are further specified as so many degrees East or West of 0 degs longitude – so a satellite at 28.2 degs East is actually 28.2 degs East of due South (0 degs) – i.e point the antenna South, the move it to the East (left) of the due South line.

 

Unfortunately, its not quite as easy as this – the bearing is from 0 deg longitude, so if you are not at 0 degs, the angle is changed slightly. Similarly, the elevation angle is lower depending on how far north you are. However, it is not difficult to find the satellite – simply connect up the receiver to the antenna, set the receiver for almost any channel, and slowly move it in a ”raster” pattern, starting from a few degrees above and to one side of the expected angle. move the antenna horizontally (slowly) , until it is pointing a few degrees to the other side of the expected azimuth if no signal is seen, then tilt the antenna down a fraction (maybe one degree), and swing it back to the left. If this is done slowly in small increments, it should be possible to find the bird. There are several birds in this region – check you have found the correct one ( see http://www.satbeams.com/footprints). To make this even easier, many receivers (even cheap ones), have a tone output (derived from the system AGC, for the technical) which changes when it is receiving the satellite beacon signal – look in the instructions and user menus).

 

As Rob says, some channels are horizontally polarised and some are vertical, and there can be signal level differences between them, but in the UK this is relatively insignificant – simply adjust the antenna pointing fractionally to get the best visible output for a channel on each polarisation (i.e., and average setting), and fix it in this position. The signal strength with a 60cm dish in the UK is sufficiently good that the difference is not significant. I have a meter (try Maplin, Conrad, etc – they are very cheap), but I have rarely used it – I use the technique described above.

 

I used a cheap (35 Euro) digital receiver and a 60 cm dish in Central Germany to receive perfectly good Freeview reception from the inception of the service, so this must be possible from almost all locations in UK – there is absolutely no need to pay the rip-off prices demanded by various companies. As John Coates says, you can get all BBC and ITV regions plus other channels, if thats what you want.

 

There are many channels available – we receive some UK channels in Romania, again using a simple cheapo digital receiver and an 80cm dish. We cannot see BBC and ITV (the satellite footprint is shaped so as to cover only UK (plus most of western Europe), but we get BBC 24 hour and Sky news, plus about 10 other channels showing films and various series, and sports – all for zero cost. HD channels are also on these birds, but you will need an HD receiver, and even then, the majority of these channels are scrambled (try browsing this site http://www.lyngsat-address.com/ for full information on the channels carried on these birds), so you will have to pay the rip-off artists anyway. I believe also (not 100% sure), that some of the channels which are available free and unscrambled on terrestrial Freesat are also carried on the Freesat satellite service – but I understand they are provided through Sky and are ”soft-scrambled”, so even though they are on Freesat you still need a Sky card. I think this is provided free on request for the Freesat channels – but you will then need a receiver which can read the card (NOT necessarily a Sky box). This probably explains why John Coates could not receive any HD on his ”HD-ready box”. I don”t know of any ”free-to-air” HD channels at moment. This is probably all in the interests of obfuscating what is a fairly simple system, and to increase the money going into a certain Australian pocket.

 

Please don”t moan at me if your experiences differ from mine – I retired from this industry after 45 years in it, and left UK for good many years ago – I provide the information in good faith, with the comment that a digital dish and receiver (NOT Sky) are very cheap (less than 40 UK pounds if you look), and you don”t need to mount the thing on the roof – so long as you have a clear view of the sky to the South it can be at ground level, so have a look for yourselves.

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Posted By wotsit on 18/08/2011 21:00:27.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Although this thread is not really connected with model engineering, it is not offensive or controversial and can remain in place.

regards David

 

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

Well, I think it is connected to ME. I’m just waiting for a dish etc. to be delivered to get Broadband, then I can watch all the useful videos. BT is rubbish and can’t supply reliable broadband. We have only digital telly now, rumour has it that the power is turned down at weekends to reduce the chance of faults, so that staff don’t get called out. Certainly lose channels at weekends. Am looking to get a dish for TV also. Lots of useful information here.

[Author]

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