Diesel Heaters

[Adrian R2Participant @adrianr2]

Sounds like a good deal but I made a mistake setting the controls of my time machine and it won’t be back in service for a few years 🙂

Is anything available on today’s market? I have seen “monoblock” air-con units that only need ducting and claim to heat as well but not sure how efficiently so would they ever pay back install cost? Or maybe repurpose a heat pump tumble dryer?

 

[mark smith 20Participant @marksmith20]

Heres one ofasimilar type to mine but the prices have gone up since i bought mine but if you looked around im sure you could find cheaper. Mine was branded Bodner & Mann , which was a common brand in Europe at the time.

They technically are supposed to cost very little to run especially the newer inverter ones.

https://www.appliancesdirect.co.uk/p/eiq-12wminv/electriq-eiq12wminv-wall-split-air-conditioner

Regarding prices im of the view that people regularly pay a fortune for things like mobile phones and id prefer to pay for something i feel is more useful and longer lasting. But its a personal choice.

[mark smith 20Participant @marksmith20]

Heres the spec label on the indoor wall unit .

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Be careful about small self contained ‘aircon’ units. Some take room air, extract heat then exhaust cooled air to outside. Seems great but then more air has to come in to replace that exhausted ie cold air from outside. Same in reverse when cooling in summer. They MUST have both and input and output connected to outside to really work properly.

[mark smith 20]

On mark smith 20 Said:

Heres one ofasimilar type to mine […]

https://www.appliancesdirect.co.uk/p/eiq-12wminv/electriq-eiq12wminv-wall-split-air-conditioner

 

Thanks. At the moment I’m happy with my dehumidifier approach but have bookmarked that for the future.

+ Does seem to offer reasonable SCOP for heating

+ Also does cooling for the summer

– Installation manual says it needs a hard wired electrical connection and thus a professional sparky so not completely DIYable.

– Propane refrigerant, so as with the diesel you have inflammable things to keep under control, they recommend ventilation and a gas alarm.

 

 

[mark smith 20Participant @marksmith20]

Bazyle what do you mean by small self contained? Single indoor unit types like a large dehumidifier or split like what imtalking about with a large fan unit outside ?

Just switched mine back on to test and still working perfectly after over a decade ,despite being made in China.

How does the dehumidifier part work on split con? Does the water go out through the indoor unit and down the pipe that goes to the drain. Im not any sort of expert on these ,just bought one and have been impressed  with it.

For instance just put mine on set at 20 c and within a couple of minutes its gone from near freezing to comfortable to work in.

Heres a couple of photos of the remote and the indoor unit which is around 5 ft above my southbend lathe. The remote is easy to use as well. Mine just plugs straight into a normal indoor 13A extension lead . Hardest part of installing it was cutting through the conservatory dwarf walls with the hole saw and getting the rather stiffflexible copper pipe (around 4metres long  as neat as possible and through the wall to the outside unit.The grey plastic pipe goesto the drain so iassumethats for condensate.

[mark smith 20]

On mark smith 20 Said:

Yes they do , i have had one for around 10 -15 years  as i do alot of work in a conservatory attached to the house which is bloody freezing in winter unlessits sunny. …

Split-air conditioning is a good choice for a conservatory.  Them being poorly insulated and rapidly heated by the sun means the temperature inside varies quickly over an enormous range.   Same might apply to a thin shed, though they resist solar heating better than a glass roof!

…

I havent used it for a while as energy costs are high now. But when i used it almost every day for a few hours it was quite efficient and didnt add that much to the quarterly electric bill.

Sorry, no intention to cause offence, but in engineering terms words are often meaningless; numbers please!  How many kWH over what period,  how did you measure ”quite efficient‘, and if it “didnt add that much to the quarterly electric bill“, why the worry about “energy costs are high now” ?

 

I would of thought they would be ideal for a well insulated workshop.

Probably not so much in the UK.   Wildly changing temperatures are common in continental climes, where deserts are noted for being deadly hot during the day, and freezing cold during the night. Though Great Britain is further north than the whole of the USA other than Alaska, our weather is moderate due to the Gulf Stream, which much reduces the need for such devices.  Over the top I feel for any reasonably well insulated British workshop, might be difficult to fit, and certainly expensive to buy and run.  In my well-insulated workshop I rarely feel the for cooling; only on hot sticky summer days.   Feeling cold in winter is more likely, fixed by dressing warmly and a heater.    That said, Aircon might well be the right answer in GB for a thin shed or conservatory, but usually cheaper to insulate and dehumidify a workshop unless the temperature fluctuates wildly.   More valuable, even essential, in hot humid countries.

Dave

[mark smith 20Participant @marksmith20]

Dave its a personal choice ,it was cheap at the time and suits my needs . Regarding figures i never checked ,just kept an eye on my bills. When i bought it ,i heard widely varying figures about running costs ,as said above certainly wasnt difficult to install. Some places quote at the moment as low as 6 pence an hour for the newer inverter types but doesnt specify in cooling or heating mode.

They are supposed to work and are basically the same as air source heat pumps and asfar asiknow they are one of the only heating methods that give out more heat energy than is used in electricity units. As said im not techically minded with these things but it works for me.

As far as over the top in what way , money or ??? In cost even at todays prices it less than the price of a higher end mobile phone and people dont think twice about buying them.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

The sort with two sections, inside and outside are called “mini-split”. You can set them up as DIY bit they don’t come with refrigerant so you have to get an air-con installer to charge them and he will charge you an arm and a leg for the half hour it take so do it. He may also insist it is wired in by an pro electrician ie his brother in law.

The sort I was referring to in an earlier post is characterised by having a flexible hose to poke out the window or suitable hole. They are maybe sub £300 while a mini-split is >£600.

[mark smith 20Participant @marksmith20]

Yes thats what i thought , mine was a  pre gassed  split type so diy ,as is the one in the link i put up. Many have to be fitted by an installer , but the pre gassed are available if you look. You here all this stuff that they have to be refilled evry 5 years or so. but mine is alot older and works perfectly fine ,as when i first bought it.  The HVAC installers etc… like to make problems when often there isnt any.

[mark smith 20]

On mark smith 20 Said:

…

As far as over the top in what way , money or ???

Well, are we engineers on the forum or not?  This definition of engineering is as good as any: ‘The application of scientific and mathematical principles to practical ends such as the design, manufacture, and operation of efficient and economical structures, machines, processes, and systems. ‘, my bold. Or as I believe George Stephenson first put it “An engineer is someone who does for a pound what any fool can do for a guinea.”  

Thus engineers are required to be cost conscious throughout.  The problem with split air-con is they’re unlikely to be economic answer to the problem faced by most British workshops.  Makes sense in your workshop because it’s in a conservatory, a difficult place needing rapid heating and cooling, but downright wasteful for me to fit one in my well-insulated workshop.  Also, split air-cons being easy to fit in a conservatory does not mean they are easy to fit everywhere else!

So OTT as in money.

In cost even at todays prices it less than the price of a higher end mobile phone and people dont think twice about buying them.

Regretfully Mark, that’s muddled thinking.  Politicians and wealthy customers might be allowed that logic mistake, but engineers have to avoid it.  Engineers are trained to come up with economic answers to well-defined problems – solutions that are both ‘fit for purpose’ and ‘value for money’.   It’s a disciplined process.  Under no circumstances do engineers allow extraneous factors like buying mobile phones into the assessment! Keep the requirement clean; irrelevant confusion wastes money. The price of a high-end phone and why they are bought has absolutely no relationship to engineering a temperature controlled workshop!  Nor does the £30 I paid for a new mobile phone last month…

Of course Model Engineering is a hobby, and everyone is free to spend their dosh as they wish.  If fitting an air-con, diesel heater, or cold-fusion reactor makes anyone happy, go for it.  I don’t care if someone chooses to cure condensation by burning banknotes in a brazier.   Must say though that Model Engineers in my experience are careful with their money, doing their best to make a little go a long way.   So if money matters I simply recommend having a quick think about how well a proposal meets their need and how much it will cost.   A split air-con is an expensive purchase in my book, hence needs careful consideration before splashing out.  Whist I’m confident one would be a waste of money in my home, in other circumstances, they’re a good option.

Whilst tight financial discipline may not be needed in a home workshop, it pays to be aware.  Professional engineers have to be cost conscious, and that makes them hungry for reliable data.  Much easier to analyse requirements and the cost of different ways of meeting them when figures are available.  That’s why I keep asking for numbers, specifications and measurements in posts rather than empty words like “quality”, “decent”, “nice”, “lovely” or “good”.

Dave

 

 

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

My (UK) house is heated and cooled by two multi-split (one outdoor unit feeds to or more indoor units) air to air heatpumps. These are what most people would call “airconditioning”. I had a similar set-up on my previous home. They work extremly well and are very cost effective as heaters as they pump more heat into the house than they consume in electricity. They are “inverter” type units so no “bang-bang” control with assoctiated noise.
The dehumidify well.
As with ANY heating system the temperatures and running costs depend on the insulation of the building. I don’t have one in the workshop but highly recommend them for home use and can see no disadvantage to using them in a hoe workshop. I feel the air to air (or ground to air) are a much better solution than the air (or ground) to water systems that you can get a grant for. The water output units provide no cooling or de-humidification and most current models have relatively low water temperatures. This means they need larger radiators and pipework to match a conventional hot water system.

Robert.

[mark smith 20Participant @marksmith20]

Dave, fair enough, mymobile cost nothing ,i got it off one of my sons who are constantly upgrading their phones. I have never actually bought one.

I am also not what i would consider an engineer. Currently a violin bowmaker, dealer and  restorer of antique ones. I did serve a sheet metal apprenticeship on leaving school ,later became a chemist, so used to figures and calculations.

I only made a suggestion and it works for me. I bought mine cheaply ,installed it myself and dont know if it would work as well in a shed type workshop, but cant see any reason why not.My garden workshop is alongish 8ft x 22ft singleblock rendered wall type with a mixture of slate and tiles roof. very cold in winter so i prefer to work in the conservatory in winter ,shed in summer.

As to installation for a pre gassed self install type ,fan on the wall  next to ground outside on a wall bracket  , pipes through a 3-4 ” hole (pipe has a quick connector on each end ) and inside unit put just below ceiling /roof height and plug it in. `There are plenty of used ones  available .

If other prefer diesel far enough. I dont disagree with you, just think it would be worth a try ,if could be found cheaply etc…

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

While I agree with Dave’s thoughts, the engineers of German cars seem to have very different priorities!

[mark smith 20]

On mark smith 20 Said:

Has no-one tried split aircon for heating??

Yes, I have had a Toshiba unit in the house (and semi indoor garage/workshop) for eight years now.  Very economical, having a COP of 3.5, ie., for every kilowatt of electricity it uses it produces 3.5 kW of heat.  More recent models are even better. Even though we are in the south of France we get strong winds coming off the nearby Pyrenees mountains with their ski slopes and get temperatures down to -10 C in winter.

Russell

[Author]

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