Deliberate mistakes

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

EDIT

I quoted the wrong message, Neil said earlier

just a thought, one type of deliberate mistake is used to catch out map-copyright snatchers called 'trap streets' they are fake features that help prove copying has taken place.

Oh Neil, you've just ruined my day!

 

I used to trust maps but now it seems like everything in this life they have to be taken with pinch of salt, I wonder what can we trust?

Recently I was discussing the instruments on my car dashboard with a very senior engineer that worked for the manufacturer and he explained why his car company were able to control the engine coolant temperature with a very high degree of stability.

The water temperature gauge indicates that after starting from cold the engine quite quickly reaches 90 degrees and than stays there! In hot and cold weather, up hill and down dale, it sits at 90 degrees. Since I knew it has a mechanical thermostat I was quite impressed with the overall performance of what is quite a simple servo system.

He explained that the manufacturer regards the temperature gauge purely as a warning light, as soon as the coolant is (say 70 degrees) the software driving the meter needle puts it a 90. Thereafter it stays at 90 and only increases if the temperature is above (say 110 degrees).

As long as the needle is in the middle of the scale the car driver does not have to worry and 'eventually' I had to agree that the system works. Do we really need to know if the water is at 81 or 82 degrees, as long as it within a certain window everyone's happy.

Ian P

PS I hope any apostrophe characters I used are within editorial limits!

 

Edited By Ian Phillips on 16/05/2016 17:39:36

[DodParticipant @dod]

Is the mistake the scene in the background is an all woodwork workshop and the fella is using a metalworking lathe with no metal in the lathe

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Ian Phillips on 16/05/2016 17:36:36:

He explained that the manufacturer regards the temperature gauge purely as a warning light, as soon as the coolant is (say 70 degrees) the software driving the meter needle puts it a 90. Thereafter it stays at 90 and only increases if the temperature is above (say 110 degrees).

Car used to have oil pressure gauges, now they have a simple light.

N,

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Mike on 16/05/2016 12:38:12:

… what gives me constant entertainment is what seems to be known as the "greengrocer's apostrophe.

.

Mike,

I have a theory [or hypothesis] about that …

Try this …

Greengrocers think of their produce in the same way as [say] metal dealers.

Therefore, just as there are prices for Gold, Silver, and Copper … they have prices for Carrot, Potato, and Onion [note the absence of any 's' on these commodities]

Now go to the shop … "Carrot's 80p/Kg."

suddenly makes sense, because it means "Carrot is 80p/Kg."

I'm sure that there are numerous exceptions, but it's worth a thought.

MichaelG.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

but you wouldn't buy a singular carrot, or part of a carrot, so you need an abbreviation for 'carrots are' which could be carrots're. This is getting even more bizarre than the treacle mines thread

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 16/05/2016 21:28:09:

… Therefore, just as there are prices for Gold, Silver, and Copper … they have prices for Carrot, Potato, and Onion [note the absence of any 's' on these commodities]

.

Duncan,

I think perhaps you have missed my main point ^^^

MichaelG.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Posted by duncan webster on 16/05/2016 22:57:01:

but you wouldn't buy a singular carrot,

The village shop near my sister's school sold carrot material in convenient single sticks as the girls would sometimes buy one to feed a horse on their walks…..

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 16/05/2016 13:17:10:

Posted by Hopper on 16/05/2016 11:53:30:

Do you have a reference for this useage of his? Maybe it was some archaic use? Or is it a construction of your own?

.

Hopper,

In support of Martin's case …

This usage is [was] fairly common on bookplates

Here is a nice example … there are many more.

MichaelG.

I'd beg to differ.

The different typefaces used for the name and then "his book" clearly indicate that these are two separate phrases. Different thing alltogether.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 16/05/2016 14:31:11:

Just a thought, one type of deliberate mistake is used to catch out map-copyright snatchers called 'trap streets' they are fake features that help prove copying has taken place.

Neil

More of a deliberate inaccuracy, don't you think?

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 16/05/2016 21:28:09:

Posted by Mike on 16/05/2016 12:38:12:

… what gives me constant entertainment is what seems to be known as the "greengrocer's apostrophe.

.

Mike,

I have a theory [or hypothesis] about that …

Try this …

Greengrocers think of their produce in the same way as [say] metal dealers.

Therefore, just as there are prices for Gold, Silver, and Copper … they have prices for Carrot, Potato, and Onion [note the absence of any 's' on these commodities]

Now go to the shop … "Carrot's 80p/Kg."

suddenly makes sense, because it means "Carrot is 80p/Kg."

I'm sure that there are numerous exceptions, but it's worth a thought.

MichaelG.

I just can't imagine the average greengrocer putting that much though into it.

I think they are the same as the professional signwriters, unsure about were the pos goes so sprinkle a few through their work at random and hope for the best. Most customers would not be sure if the pos was correct or not these days, so defer to the better judgement of the professional and think he must know more than they do.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Bazyle on 16/05/2016 13:14:47:

…

The grammar problem that is getting to me at the moment is the below reference. The Indians at work read that it is technically correct but don't understand that it is not like the above reference and not good colloquial English.

I wonder how many of you get what I'm talking about above and think below is an adjective.

Baz, I'm not sure I get what you are referring to exactly. Can you give us an example or two?

Seems like the phrase "Please refer to the below reference" is acceptable colloquial English, if that is what you are talking about?

It's often interesting working with Indians and Hong Kong Chinese and the like because their education systems still reflect grammar and useage that was current back in the days of the Raj. They can often quote you rules of English grammar up one side and down the other, yet their speech may sound rather stilted.

EG, "I am working in the IT industry and I am getting up at six every morning" is technically correct, both actions being ongoing and regularly repeated. Therefore according to the strict rules of colonial-era grammar the present progressive tense (I am …) is called for.

But you or I would just say "I work in the IT industry and get up at six every morning".

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

It's landladies' quotes that get my ire. The classic was:

Please do not flush anything except "toilet paper" down the toilet.

Two nights without being able to relieve myself

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Hopper on 17/05/2016 01:45:06:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 16/05/2016 13:17:10:

Posted by Hopper on 16/05/2016 11:53:30:

Do you have a reference for this useage of his? Maybe it was some archaic use? Or is it a construction of your own?

.

Hopper,

In support of Martin's case …

This usage is [was] fairly common on bookplates

Here is a nice example … there are many more.

MichaelG.

I'd beg to differ.

The different typefaces used for the name and then "his book" clearly indicate that these are two separate phrases. Different thing alltogether.

.

Hopper … Feel free to differ: It wouldn't be a very interesting forum if we were all of the same opinion.

In response: Yes, of course they are two different phrases, but that's irrelevant to this expression being the origin of the "apostrophe s".

There is decorative art in the BookPlate; but I have seen manuscript annotations with the same phrasing, and no 'change of typeface'. … Here are a couple of examples.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 17/05/2016 08:12:44

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Bored now.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Hopper on 17/05/2016 01:52:18:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 16/05/2016 21:28:09:

… Greengrocers think of their produce in the same way as [say] metal dealers.

Therefore, just as there are prices for Gold, Silver, and Copper … they have prices for Carrot, Potato, and Onion [note the absence of any 's' on these commodities]

< etc. >

I just can't imagine the average greengrocer putting that much though into it.

< etc >

.

It doesn't require much thought to follow established custom & practice.

**LINK** Clearly demonstrates that many vegetables are priced as substances, not items.

MichaelG.

.

Questtion: How much is Gold ? … Answer: Gold's £28,500/kg

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Hopper in his above email which is displayed above has the gist of my point. I was being deliberately obscure. It is all about what sounds right to us indigenous Brits though it may also depend on region and education. 'Above' can be used before and after the item to which it refers. According to some online references 'below' can be used in the same way. However putting 'below' in front of the noun sounds wrong generally except when one is doing it deliberately to draw attention to something by the jarring effect.

How can I advise them of good English usage without offence? There are a lot of more blatant errors that sometimes can be a bit amusing.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Can you explain what is happening here. It is a rather ludicrous situation but technically possible in bad weather.

"Ships' ship's boats shipping ships and boats shipped ships and boats in a BOAT"

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 17/05/2016 08:50:09:

Bored now.

.

Well … That's nice, when I'm still busy trying to support your argument.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: for the sake of disambiguation:

Yes; my use of "That's nice" was sarcastic.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 17/05/2016 09:40:42

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bazyle on 17/05/2016 08:58:31:

How can I advise them of good English usage without offence?

.

Try advising them of vernacular English usage; whilst respecting the fact that their English might be more technically correct.

MichaelG.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Sorry

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

English is a minefield for pedants. For decades even well educated Brits firmly believed in the correctness of "Standard English" and "Received Pronunciation". Today's view is that "Standard English" is just another dialect, no more or less valid than English as practised in Yorkshire, Scotland, Wales, Zummerset or Birmingum.

British readers looking for another example of ill-considered authority might enjoy Strunk and White. "The Elements of Style" is mandatory in many US educational establishments and students are marked down if they don't follow its directives. Although the book does contain much good advice, native speakers will easily detect "rules" that are surely only the prejudice and personal preference of the authors.

A friend went to school in the US. Aged 12 it was agreed that it was OK for her to stand facing the wall whilst the rest of the class swore allegiance to the flag, but her refusal to spell words like colour, theatre, and aluminium correctly was always punished.

On the subject of Aluminum, the spelling is consistent with Platinum and Tantalum. Does anyone know the origin of these variations?

 

Edit Fixed deliberate error.

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 17/05/2016 10:45:13

[Mick HenshallParticipant @mickhenshall99321]

Moving on to issue 242 cover pic, where can I get on of those hovering lamps?

Mick

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 17/05/2016 10:42:20:

On the subject of Aluminum, the spelling is consistent with Platinum and Tantalum. Does anyone know the origin of these variations?

I recall reading that Faraday(?) originally spelled it 'aluminum' but changed his mind a few days later.

I will now check and discover I am wrong.

<edit> Yes, I am completely wrong, the true story is even more fantasical.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium#Different_endings

 

Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 17/05/2016 13:56:57

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 17/05/2016 13:54:32:

I recall reading that Faraday(?) originally spelled it 'aluminum' but changed his mind a few days later.

A good example of why the English language is like it is "Aluminium sounds more classical". The vagaries of English grammar were confused by grammarians insisting that it conforms to Latin models with which, not being a romance language, it struggles. Thus "was you" -perfectly acceptable in the 18th century became "were you" in 'correct' grammar. Similary, American spellings with their loss of redundant letters were largely the result of a campaign by Noah Webster to simplify spelling, only a few examples of which stuck. Bill Bryson's "Mother Tounge" reveals all in his eminently readable style.

When I started secondary school in 1966 we had to be taught English grammar before they could start teaching us Latin. Our caretaker had been a Polish signwriter in a former life – just inside the main entrance was a beautifully painted sign he'd made "Queen Mary's Grammar School. Please drive SLOW". My niece, who is in year 6 (that's 10 going on 11) already knows all this stuff – there was a SATS test published in a newspaper last week that had me completely stumped.

Rod

[jimmy bParticipant @jimmyb]

Posted by Mick Henshall on 17/05/2016 13:18:52:

Moving on to issue 242 cover pic, where can I get on of those hovering lamps?

Mick

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