Definition of Handycrafts in Show competition

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

My local show includes an award for 'Best Overall Display'.

All I need is a tailors dummy or two and I could show a wide range of overalls. What are my chances, do you think?

Cheers, Tim

[DC31kParticipant @dc31k]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 06/08/2023 16:52:05:

What are my chances, do you think?

Very good and very good. But please do not start a thread complaining when someone wins with a boiler suit.

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Posted by JasonB on 06/08/2023 15:11:23:

Ramon, that is why I asked if Tony could clarify it it was a completed dragon that was purchased and entered or a downloadable file that was used by the entrant to make the dragon from.

If it were bough in as a finished item I don't see why Tony is asking for CAD-CAM-3D to be excluded, in this case you would ask for finished items to be excluded. Sounds more like the Dragon was built from a purchased set of files on a CNC plasma cutter and then assembled and presented by the entrant with little "handwork" involved even if the may have made the plasma cutter themselves.

I would agree that just entering an item that was bought "finished" is not really cricket but what about purchasing plans, a digital file, a casting, an embroidery or knitting pattern all are similar where the "maker" buys another persons design.

My italics but that's an assumption.

Jason,

Purchasing plans from which to read then turn into a creation – at your own hands – is totally different from purchasing a digital file from someone else, creating it by whatever computer generated means at your disposal and then claiming it as 'handiwork. However, the cardigan knitted for me from a pattern by my other half – took her a couple of years to actually make it mind you – but every stitch was hers. Had she have taken that design and allowed a computer to create it it could hardly be called 'handiwork' or 'craftwork' as it has been traditionally accepted.

A casting is a basic building block – buying a brick does not make one a housebuilder

We are living in a technological rapidly changing world. I have not noticed anyone specifically mentioning 3D printing of which I have no knowledge save that as a user of (some) products. For years I have gained enjoyment from plastic modelling and the enjoyment gained from enhancing models with after market products – that can be painted and even further still be improved upon.

Now though we have self adhesive three dimensional 'decals' pre painted ready to fit cockpit dash boards and panels for a vast number of projects the need to actually model eliminated at a stroke. Extremely detailed and realistic the only work required is to peel the backing paper off and stick it in place. No doubt fine for some but taking the hobby down the wrong road to my mind. It will not be long before the entire cockpit is available I shouldn't wonder and even perhaps the whole model – just buy it and display it. Wheres the handicraft in that I wonder.

Buying a design is one thing – we have all been doing that for years and indeed many before us but 'making something from it by hand' is another – the clue I guess is in the term 'handiwork'

Always you pays your money etc

Best – R

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

But where does the hand start and stop?

Is it handwork if I wind the handwheel on the mill from one DRO position to another but not handwork if I hold the mouse on the jog button and move the CNC's table from one position to another, where the CNC is little more than a power feed?

You mention the plastic models, Doc showed some parts that he had spent a long time drawing up in CAD and resin printing before painting. Should he be down marked for that against someone who just cut the lesser detailed parts off the sprue and used those?

From what I can recall of the Entry details from the last ME Exhibition a builder is asked to disclose if they have used any parts not made by them eg cut gears, lazer cut frames etc. There is no requirement to say how parts were machined. Should the requirements be changed and if so how should someone designing from scratch and using modern methods be judged against someone working to an old established design and using manual (control not power) machines.

Without moving with the times and just sticking with old traditional methods could add to a decline in entries as I see it so either modify the rules to take into account how things are made or as per my first post split the classes up but that could lead to only a few in each. Judges would also need to have a good understanding of what is involved in producing good work with the modern machines as it is not just press "GO" and wait. I the case of the village fair maybe it would be better to just have a "Craft" competition then encompasses all.

On the subject of castings one only needs to look at posts on various forums by the suppliers of casting kits. Almost all those that are producing new kits or bringing back old ones seem to be using CAD, CAM, CNC, 3D etc and even those that are using old patterns are revising drawings with new CAD revisions, others where suppliers of things like hot brass pressings have gone by the wayside now supply the parts that were once made that way as part machined CNC items. So do all the casting kits from these makers now get downmarked?

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

I suppose I would define handicrafts or hand crafts as items that have been made by hand and with the aid of simple tools. Anything from a hand knitted jumper to a thatched roof. I would not include anything engineered. I don’t consider model engineering a handicraft.

regards Martin

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

I'll let you have the last say on this Jason, I'm just getting to old to lock horns over something that as you say is moving on.

I will say this though when I began model engineering 1972-ish that's what I wanted to do – 'engineer' something – not have someone do it for me or a machine to work it all out. Of course you had to move the dial by hand but you have to do it with skill and knowledge and that took a lot of time to acquire – CNC is not the same in that situation and that's after spending the last three years of my working life programming and operating a Haas machining centre writing all the g-code for one offs by hand – no CAM at all.

As I said the world is changing – I don't really wish to move with it now, far too old but if these three engines, all carved by hand by conventional machining were sat next to three identical ones done entirely by CNC I think it would be very unfair to judge one against the other

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Tricky territory! I think Tony's Show needs to define what it means by a 'handicraft'. Personally I expect it to mean hand-made with only the simplest machines and no power tools.

As a judge I'd reluctantly accept items made on a treadle lathe, but submissions with any hint of a motor would be rewarded with a flogging!

Marks for:

• original design (don't care if CAD is used)
• doing all the work yourself
• Hand tools only
• Home-made tools and
• Home prepared materials

So an LBSC loco finished by a small-boy using grandad's Colchester, Bridgeport and plasma cutter and standard stock metal would be marked down severely compared with a shapeless hand-knitted cardi made from home-spun wool plucked from a sheep by a ten year old girl.

Other way round at a model engineering show, where different rules apply. There I would expect much of a Gold Medal engine. I'd check the loco's authenticity in detail – counting rivets, period correct colour match, and proper oil-lamps etc. Also apply a hydraulic boiler test and dynamometer run! If suspicious the model will be dismantled to prove it has no commercial bearings, fasteners, or plastics. O-rings in the pump, black mark!

Not important to me what technology was used to build it. That leads to endless complications. For instance, if technology were important, it would be essential to apply a handicap to anything made from British rather than Chinese equipment. Obviously anyone building an engine with inferior Far Eastern tools had to work much harder to get decent results. Their extra skills and dedication compared with well-equipped builders should be acknowledged. I'd reduce a Myford owner's score by 25%, more if they said their lathe was the best ever!

Dave

 

 

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 06/08/2023 20:09:12

[JAParticipant @ja]

All this shows is that such competitions are best avoided. The satisfaction comes from doing the work.

Since I have just won the National Lottery (which I have not played for years) I am going out to buying a fully machined, all you have to do is use a few spanners, Stuart model steam engine for a few thousand pounds. If I can paint it well I should be winning prizes.

JA

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 06/08/2023 20:02:50:

Marks for:

• original design (don't care if CAD is used)
• doing all the work yourself
• Hand tools only
• Home-made tools and
• Home prepared materials

Almost the list I'd have given.

A bit difficult perhaps to agree on what a hand tool is.

The one thing I'd add to the list is "evidence of high level hand skills". The design might be dazzling, original and all yours, the tools used may have all been made by you, and all materials etc. home grown or prepared, but if the hand skills in evidence aren't up to snuff, none of the other things, however good, can compensate.

Really skilled hand work perfectly conceals the fact that it was even done by hand.

"Industry in art is a necessity—not a virtue—and any evidence of the same, in the production, is a blemish, not a quality; a proof, not of achievement, but of absolutely insufficient work, for work alone will efface the footsteps of work…The work of the master reeks not of the sweat of the brow – suggests no effort, and is finished from the beginning."

James McNeill Whistler

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 06/08/2023 22:15:53:

[…]

Really skilled hand work perfectly conceals the fact that it was even done by hand.

"Industry in art is a necessity—not a virtue—and any evidence of the same, in the production, is a blemish, not a quality; a proof, not of achievement, but of absolutely insufficient work, for work alone will efface the footsteps of work…The work of the master reeks not of the sweat of the brow – suggests no effort, and is finished from the beginning."

James McNeill Whistler

.

That’s a wonderful quote, Bill … and it immediately brought to mind this little 3-legged bridge in the Charles Frodsham wristwatch:

.

Ref: **LINK** https://frodsham.com/wristwatch/index.php

It is made as a flat piece, by CNC … but the tapered profiling is done by hand

I have watched him at work … with the piece simply clamped by his thumb onto a bottle-cork.

Immense skill, and dedication to the craft.

MichaelG.

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Edit: __ Please permit me a small digression to pay tribute to the creator pf that animation:

https://redfernanimation.com/

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 07/08/2023 07:17:10

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

I am sure if members of this forum chatted to potential prize winners of a handicraft competition we would be asking about methods of manufacture, about anything that was difficult to do and what tools were used. Surely potential judges could ask similar questions to a short list of top entries and present prizes based not just on the entry but also on the work put into the item. Make an event of it like a lot of the programmes on TV where presenters go around and talk to people who are painting, sewing or cooking. This fuller picture of the entry and the entrant would enable prizes to be awarded based on more than just presentation of an object.

Martin C

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I suppose a lot depends on the type of competition. Judges for the local village show may not have a lot of technical knowledge and be better suited to judging cakes or garden produce.

If it were and ME competition then points can be gained buy including some photos of particular setups, showing jigs that were used etc though whether they should be self developed and printed B&W photos and non 3D printed jigs may be upto debate.

[lee websterParticipant @leewebster72680]

I wonder how a paint by numbers painting would fare at an art exhibition? Would a judge be looking at subject matter, or the skill required to keep inside the lines?

Don't get me started on anything produced by Andy Warhol.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by lee webster on 07/08/2023 08:50:02:

]…]

Don't get me started on anything produced by Andy Warhol.

.

I wouldn’t dream of doing so, lee

Warhol’s approach to Art was [intentionally] the antithesis of Craft

MichaelG.

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 07/08/2023 09:07:22

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

I would say that

If your hand controls the tool that does the work that creates the item then it is hand crafted

So an item created with a DRO counts, but the same item with CAD/CAM does not

Basically any item made with hand-eye co-ordination is hand crafted

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

What about the hand that controls the mouse either to design or work the machine.?

Winding a handwheel to position a DRO point shown on a purchased drawing may need less overall skill than if that drawing was created with CAD and then positioned using the handwheel.

What about somethng like gear cutting, would using a division master you made yourself to index the gear then handfeeding the part be any less than using a hole plate. Similar for screws cut with an ELS where cut is put on by hand but carriage moved by the leadscrew.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

That's just the design work

You could enter it in the Digital Art category

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

An els screw thread is no different to a change wheels screw thread

I don't think there are many screw thread competitions anyway

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Ady1 on 07/08/2023 10:06:21:

An els screw thread is no different to a change wheels screw thread

In what way is it different to CNC. In both cases you enter some numbers and press Go in it's basic form. Why is an electronically controlled lathe leadscrew different to an electronically controlled lead or ball screw on a mill

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I can't see why power tools should be excluded. It's one thing having a power tool, but another having the skills to use them to their full capabilities, for example, I'm very confident when using a chain saw, but to create very detailed sculptures with one, is something that that I don't have the skill for.

Regards Nick.

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

These village show competitions started going downhill when they allowed entrants in the baking competitions to use digital scales instead of weighing everything by eye, like proper cooks.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by lee webster on 07/08/2023 08:50:02:

I wonder how a paint by numbers painting would fare at an art exhibition? Would a judge be looking at subject matter, or the skill required to keep inside the lines?

Don't get me started on anything produced by Andy Warhol.

If value means anything, Warhol paintings have sold for over $100M!

Just after WW2 a British major comedian said he'd established the value of his autograph. He always paid the bill in pubs and restaurants with a cheque. If the bill was below a certain value, the cheque was framed and hung on the wall to show that the star was a patron. He got a free meal because the cheque was never cashed. Above a certain value, the cheque definitely would be cashed, thus establishing the big stars actual monetary value. From memory, he was worth about £4. I think it was either Tommy Trinder, Max Wall or George Formby. Anyone know for sure?

Another interesting point: the value of art depends entirely on personal opinion. Art can't be quantified and checked against a specification. That means everybody's opinion of it is of equal value. There is no objective right or wrong. Nonetheless, people are often enraged by art or feel obliged to die in a ditch defending it. Emotion rules.

Engineering, Science, Maths are quantifiable, and can be checked against a specification – there is an objective right and wrong. Although Art and Engineering often overlap – Spitfires look good – it's important not to confuse the two.

Economics follow basic logical rules and outcomes can be predicted with fair accuracy. Except economics has a high emotional content. It's strongly influenced by group behaviour, even when that behaviour is daft. When it became apparent COVID was dangerous, a large proportion of the population broke the system by panic buying. Allowing emotion to trump logic created an unnecessary artificial shortage of Toilet Rolls! I think humans are driven to compete ferociously for Toilet Paper and Warhol paintings by the same primitive desire: it comes from the greedy animal part of our brains, not the clever bit.

Before deciding anything, give the clever part of our brains time to think. Allowing gut feelings to rule when facts point the other way is always a mistake. Even if the facts are unpleasant. I expect Lee would be delighted to buy a genuine Warhol at a car boot sale for a fiver, and would then do everything in his power to get the maximum he could by selling it. I would! For $100M dollars I'd say anything, even untruths, to persuade customers that Warhol was the best artist ever.

Dave

 

 

 

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 07/08/2023 10:28:06

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Once a 'model' is entered as part of a competition to win a cup, the rule book has to be constantly modified to cover the 'intention' of the person submitting it. In M/E competition in LBSC s era, a loco was downgraded because the builder had used materials from drinks cans for the cleading. Judges didn't know this until told. A later one, a 14 year old had manufactured a lathe purely to skim the coms for his own model R/C cars and was downgraded because he 'should' have used cast iron for the construction instead of Allumininium.

Used to compete in BARCS competitions thermal soaring events. Basic rule was competitor had to be 'The builder of the model', this covered own design, plan builds and kit builds. Worked fine until the 'Kits' arrived on the market which contained finished G/F fusegulges and CNC generated and pre covered wings so all the 'Builder' had to do was screw the servos in, plug the wings in and lob the 'Creation' into the air. 'Technically' still the builder but bends the intention.

Rule sub sections are used to cover the evolution of the use of teknowleggy, should a modeller be penalised for their prowess in the manipulation of binary codes to achieve a result? In industry I used to embrace tecky in the manufacture of parts for a finished product so, not, a technophobe but for HOBBY, twiddling handles and reading a mic has always been the norm.

Regards Ian.

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

SoD says: Art can't be quantified and checked against a specification. That means everybody's opinion of it is of equal value.

I suggest that this depends on how you define ‘value’. In the art trade, the value of an item is what someone will pay for it, so the decisions always depend solely on the views of the well-off. And clearly, the majority – who tend to have little or no spare cash – count for nothing.

Of course, the value of an item can be judged in other ways, but it seems to me that SoD is – just this once – wide of the mark.

Regards – Tim

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Screw threading has never been an issue at any point because everybody is on a level playing field

[Author]

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