Definition of Handycrafts in Show competition

[Tony MartyrParticipant @tonymartyr14488]

The winning entry at our town Show in the category of 'Metal or Wooden' objects was a metal plasma cut Dragon that is commercially available on line. It beat some well crafted Black-smithy entries and a remarkable wire sculpture but, since there was no wording in the entry form to disqualify such entries there was no legal grounds for its exclusion. Most of the general public would not have known of its origin. I am proposing to send the following message to the organisers – if any reader has dealt with tis problem I would welcome suggestions of better wording.
"In order to preserve the true meaning of Handicrafts in all sections of the ….Show and in view of the present and increasing availability of items created by CAD/CAM technologies and 3D printing, I suggest the rules of entry should in future contain a clause along the following lines: – All entries must be substantially created by their own hands without the aid of techneques requiring Computer Aided Cesign or Manufacture and/or 3D Printing"

Tony M

[Tony MartyrParticipant @tonymartyr14488]

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Might also be worth asking for a new class to be added for CAD/CAM, 3D, CNC Etc items which would help keep the entries and interest up as more and more people make use of these technologies

I assume it was a CNC plasma cutter and not one used free hand, if it was used free hand then where do you draw the line as it would just be another powertool or should they be excluded too?

Edited By JasonB on 06/08/2023 10:10:17

[Mike HurleyParticipant @mikehurley60381]

Fully agree Tony – . whilst not against the rules as such, but sounds very much like being against the spirit of hand-made crafts.A simple change to those rules as suggested would remove any future confusion.

regards

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Fully agree too Tony – doesn't matter whether it was done by normal means or CNC because if, as you state, it was 'commercially available on line' then it is not a 'handicraft' – anyone can have one if they are prepared to part with the cash.

I well remember a conversation with an entrant at an Old Warden Scale day who had flown this beautifully built twin engined Bristol Beaufighter R/C model which subsequently had won the best model award. I asked him how long he had taken to build it – Oh I didn't build it, he said, I bought it from the person who did. Hollow victory in my book so do send your letter but check the spelling of techneques (sic)

Best – Tug

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Seems unfair for items actually hand made by carpentry, turning, milling etc to be ouclessed by a lasaer cut kit that can be bought.

Less Handicraft, more assembly!

It should be a condition of the entry being accepted into the compettition that the majority of the work should be carried out by the entrant. (It should not be possible to win "Best Model Locomotive" with a Hornby or Bachmann model, good as they are )

Howard

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Perhaps entrants should have some form of recognition for the number of hours the entry took to complete.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Fully agree with Tony, Had the same scenario when I used to organise classic bike part of a local show and only entries that were ridden in were judged. After a couple of years the trailered bikes with no internals didn't bother coming.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

They need to change the classes to Hand built and CAD/CAM/Digital entries

You don't even need to be in the same room when these items are being made, the only hand built bit is the cleaning and tarting it up bit

[Anonymous]

Posted by Speedy Builder5 on 06/08/2023 10:57:56:

…recognition for the number of hours the entry took to complete.

Would that include the hours spent creating CAD drawings, generating G-code and designing and making fixtures?

Andrew

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

The big difference with cad/CAM is once you've done the bespoke bit you can run a million of them off with machines going 24/7

[peak4Participant @peak4]

I can understand the issues surrounding the CAM aspect of it regarding a craft competition, but less so the CAD.

When I need a drawing to make something, I still use a pen and drawing board or similar, but that's only because I've not got round to learning and CAD packages. (proviso here I normally use crafty methods mend stuff, rather than being "crafty" for the end artistic result)

Does it make the end product any more "craftwork" for using CAD? I'd suggest not.

e.g. I suspect you could download a design for a wooden clock, but make it purely by hand with a fretsaw and chisels etc, in the same way that one time it would have come from a "craft workers" paper book of published clock designs.

I would certainly draw the line in a craft competition of downloading the design and then using a laser cutter for all the parts, (unless perhaps it was clearly explained in the items description)
The might though be an argument for exactly the same laser cut design if it was intricately painted by hand afterwards, such that a substantial part of the item was indeed craft work, provided that the description makes that clear.

I see the need a very careful consideration of the how the rules a written to avoid causing offence to one camp or another.

Bill

[Cabinet EnforcerParticipant @cabinetenforcer]

People entering stuff they didn't make has always been an issue in this sort of event, a good judge would have picked up on it, there is no need to "ban" such entries.
All you can do is complain to the committee that a commercially available product won, maybe you could offer your expert services as a judge in future?

Edited By Cabinet Enforcer on 06/08/2023 11:35:41

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Anything made on CAD/CAM is commercial because of its portability

It's a completely different skill set compared to hand built

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

I think Andrew got a new spoon for his birthday!

Seriously it's pretty much an impossible distinction. Especially in the context of a small local display with limited number of entries. Where do you draw the lines between made with hand tools, made with machine tools made with CNC et al. Ultimately its going to be down to quality of finish and "wow I like that" factor.

Even in the Model Engineering world where there is some appreciation for techniques and how difficult something is to do judgement is ultimately on finite and finish. Complexity and difficulty get extra points once the looks really good hurdle is crossed but it has to look good first.

When you put something in a display competition it's a "this is what I made at home" beauty contest.

When it comes things like vehicle restoration it is tacitly accepted that the professionals did most, or even all of the work. No fundamental difference there to the racehorse owner getting the trophy for winning the race!

Rather than go overboard on distinctions better to have a text panel briefly saying what the entrant had to do, what tools were needed and how long it took. The just lookers will ignore it, the folk who are interested will read it and the person thinking "I might like to do that" will find it useful.

Clive

[Martin Johnson 1Participant @martinjohnson1]

Seems to me the OP is barking up the wrong tree. Surely the qualifying point is that it must be "of your own manufacture". Jason B among others on here does great things with CAD, CNC etc. That is a world away from buying it on the internet and claiming credit.

Martin

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Tony, when you say commercially available is that the actual Dragon being entered or just the CAD files which I see there are several to choose from in which case it begs the question what is the difference between buying a set of printed plans and buying a digital file? In both cases someone else has done the design work and the entrant just used their tools to make the part.

Even with CNC there are some that I know who have done away with their manual machines and use the CNC for everything be that just drilling a hole where the CNC is no more than a combined DRO and power feed. Others who don't have the latest CAM will spend many hours writing out G-code from their 2D drawings to those that use the full 3D capabilities designing teh part themselves and using the CAM to generate G-code.

As for CAD I would rate a model designed from scratch in CAD and built with traditional mill and lathe far higher than someone who went and bought say an old set LBSC or Evens drawings and used similar tools to make it so don't see why the CAD user should be looked down upon

Edited By JasonB on 06/08/2023 13:25:23

[DC31kParticipant @dc31k]

I think you also need to re-assess (in the sense of narrowing the scope of) the 3D printing part of your exclusion clause.

Entering a 3D printed item is probably not within the spirit of the competition, but using a 3D printed something to assist in the item's creation is no different to drawing it in CAD.

In a model engineering context, would you disallow a 3D printed pattern used for a casting because you want the person to whittle it out of a dead tree?

In a woodworking context, there are numerous 3DP add-ons and gadgets that extend and enhance the capabilities of a 1/4" trim router.

For a sculptural item, there might be good reasons to 3DP some level of prototype, gauge proportions and modify as necessary before proceeding to make the real thing in an expensive material.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

CAD/CAM isn't unskilled insofar that it lets you go from a new idea to manufacture within 24 hours

It unleashes your creativity by making a complex process very efficient and relatively simple

"Manufactured by hand" may be the description, but the lines are blurry

Edited By Ady1 on 06/08/2023 14:03:31

[Nigel BennettParticipant @nigelbennett69913]

Posted by JasonB on 06/08/2023 13:16:24:

As for CAD I would rate a model designed from scratch in CAD and built with traditional mill and lathe far higher than someone who went and bought say an old set LBSC or Evens drawings and used similar tools to make it so don't see why the CAD user should be looked down upon

Edited By JasonB on 06/08/2023 13:25:23

+1 for that, Jason. I have a CAD system, which I use to generate drawings for subsequent manufacture in the workshop which contains no CNC but the odd DRO. I like to check that the work I'm about to do in the shed is going to fit together without having to hack lumps off it or add bits on to make it work.

The skills involved in transferring a 3D solid model or 2D DXF into actual hardware is not insignificant. Complex 3D shapes need a lot of careful planning work beforehand to establish the method of manufacture, whether any fixtures are needed and how second- and subsequent operations on the job are going to be carried out. This requires a lot of acquired knowledge.

Because something has been manufactured using CAD/CAM, folk seem to think that somebody has simply typed "Widget" into a computer, waited a few moments for the whirring and flashing lights to finish, extracted a memory stick from the computer, opened the workshop door and chucked the memory stick in, slammed the door and waited for a little while before the door opens and the beautifully-finished, accurate-to-a-thou Widget emerges into the daylight…

But yes, Tony's original comment that a commercially-available artefact has won a handicraft competition is hardly in the spirit of such contests.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

I've got a wood router which could take a plasma cutter. Fabulous accuracy 0.1mm at super speed.

Does perfect curves or whatever you want.

But all the operator does is press a button

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

I guess it serves to show how 'things have changed' by so many replies that have picked up on the CAD/CAM versus 'physically' created by hand rather than the OP Tony's remark that the item is, quote 'commercially available on line' unquote.

How it's created should have no reference to the question as if one creates something either by knife and fork, pen and paper or indeed computer based methods its none the less a 'creation' by an individual.

To go to the local emporium or on line and purchase something, whether built by an individual or a commercial item, to enter or pass off as one's own work cannot in any way be considered as 'handicraft'

Simples

Tug

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Ramon, that is why I asked if Tony could clarify it it was a completed dragon that was purchased and entered or a downloadable file that was used by the entrant to make the dragon from.

If it were bough in as a finished item I don't see why Tony is asking for CAD-CAM-3D to be excluded, in this case you would ask for finished items to be excluded. Sounds more like the Dragon was built from a purchased set of files on a CNC plasma cutter and then assembled and presented by the entrant with little "handwork" involved even if the may have made the plasma cutter themselves.

I would agree that just entering an item that was bought "finished" is not really cricket but what about purchasing plans, a digital file, a casting, an embroidery or knitting pattern all are similar where the "maker" buys another persons design.

 

Edited By JasonB on 06/08/2023 15:30:53

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

I think that what we are considering is creativity. The process by which you create something only matters to the creator, wether by hand or machine. As an amateur photographer, I use everything bought except for the image which is shown on the paper, much the same as any artist. In recent years competition rules have evolved to ensure that the basic image is 100% by the photographer. A few years ago an international wildlife competition was won initially by someone using trained animals to create the image, it was withdrawn once the organisers were informed of the use of trained animals. Rules now even go so far as being requested to show meta data of winning image files. I would expect a hand crafted competition winner to be largely that. In model steam while expecting some parts to be bought finiished, such as pipe fittings etc one would not expect to see something like a Polly Engineering kit locomotive as a suitable winner.

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

Well you can download a DXF file for these at a cost of a mere $15. Operating the machinery I guess requires some skill but the output can neither be considered original nor handicraft.

If on the other hand the item is produced from your original artwork then it may well be handicraft.

John

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