Decent Quality Tap & Die Sets?

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Can anyone point me at a supplier which offers a decent quality (metric) tap and die set in HSS, for a reasonable (for the quality) price?

Looked at the usual suspects (Arc, Chronos, RDG) but they all include those dubious pot-metal diestocks and tap wrenches which I've come to associate with iffy quality (apart from Chronos who appear to have nicer sets but only in Carbon steel)

Cutwel offer a very complete presto set M3-M24 fine and coarse, which is actually reasonably priced for what you get, but it's got a lot of stuff I'm unlikely to use in it, so not worth the (significant) expense.

I have priced up buying a full M3-M16 coarse set from Tracy Tool as singles, and they're pretty competitive, but it would be nice to be able to get a decent set which is easy to keep organised.

Edited By Jelly on 20/03/2023 22:25:53

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

[peak4Participant @peak4]

The monthly MSC Advantage offer(s) might be worth a look. P8
https://edition.pagesuite.com/html5/reader/production/default.aspx?pubname=&edid=a52409c2-5ae8-4ce5-84ec-355514bd5ba9

Bill

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Make the box and go to tracy ! 3 – 16 mm you will need 3 die stocks and tapwrenches. Noel

[egaParticipant @ega]

I've been pleased with the quality of the spiral flute tap/tap drill set from Arc.

As you say, a comprehensive set will always include items that don't get used or are of inadequate quality so better to pick and mix.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

This is decent quality [I've got several Sherwood die stocks and tap wrenches, as well as many Sherwood dies and taps], though it's bound not to have everything you want.

Sherwood [aka Kennedy] die stocks, bought in sets, are a bargain price at the moment.

Edited By Bill Phinn on 20/03/2023 23:19:02

[Anonymous]

I buy sizes as needed from professional tool suppliers. Most of my metric threading gear is Dormer, but I also buy from Drill Service, commonly FEW brand. I often buy spiral flute taps rather than a set of hand taps. I no longer buy from Tracy Tools.

Andrew

French Engineering Works

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Well now you've given me a conundrum…

I had all but forgotten about the existence of Drill Service despite them getting me out of a bind with weird size/form factor drills available next-day multi times, and buying one spiral tap is about the same price as a set of three hand taps (cheaper in larger sizes), so that would be a good option if I bought singles.

On the other hand that Sherwood set Bill pointed out is pretty much bang on the sizes I commonly use, and a very attractive price-point.

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by noel shelley on 20/03/2023 23:05:27:

Make the box and go to tracy ! 3 – 16 mm you will need 3 die stocks and tapwrenches. Noel

I know myself well enough to admit that there's no chance of any good intentions to make a box translating into me doing so in a timely manner…

If I go down the singles route then the preferred option is popping them in one of my bisley cabinets with bubble wrap lining the drawer to protect from damage, which is how all my imperial and UN[X] taps and dies are stored.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I'm much the same as Andrew, I buy what I need and have gone over to mostly using spiral flute, the ones from ARC for general duties like the odd jig or fixture and for the models I have YG-1 taps in the common sizes I use. Dies mostly Vokel from Rotagrip. Wrenches as I've bought them over the years cheapies do for the small stuff and I've a couple of Eclipse ones that are nice. Common sizes for me are M1.6 – M4 on models and to to M6 on jigs I seldom use larger with the exception of the off metric fine or pipe thread.

As for storage I put a sheet of 6mm MDF in th eBisley draw and then superglue small strips of the same to that to divide the draws up. Bottom left is metric taps and dies in their plastic boxes.

[Roger BParticipant @rogerb61624]

I don't know if this German supplier will fit your requirements or if shipping to the UK will have become too much of a problem.

Threading tool sets | VOELKEL Threading Solutions (voelkel-shop.com)

I use them for obscure threads like M8 x 0.5.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Tracy Tools seem to supply reasonable quality at a reasonable price. Happy with the ones I have bought from them several times over the years.

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

Be careful when buying boxed sets,if buying say 3/16 to 1/2 inch whit, the tap wrench and dieholder are usually not suitable for the larger sizes,the tap wrench may hold the tap but the handles are too short to turn say 1/2 inch, like wise the od of the i/2 inch die is very small to suit the sets dieholder which again has too short handles to get enough grip to turn the die unless the owner is a giant, and of coarse a small die will drop through a larger die holder,so they can only be suitable for a tailstock die holder which has a long sturdy tommy bar, Best to buy individual taps and dies as and when needed,Quite good tap wrenches and dieholders can be purchased at boot sales /auto jumbles ,Many years ago while still at work,the company bought very good drills from Drill Services,of course quality is not cheap,and they were being used on cnc machines running 24/7 .he boxed sets I have seen were routed out of mdf ,so could easily be made to keep taps in set order and put in the bottom od small filing cabinet drawers.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

When buying larger sizes bear in mind the od ! I had an M12 in 1" od that split, a bigger od would have not done. Noel.

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

Forget boxed sets.

Buy them individually starting with the most common sizes, if you search ebay you will find lots of new old stock taps and dies from the very top brands (Dormer, SKF, Presto, Hall, Goliath etc) at reasonable prices. Don't worry about them matching, who cares? You can then fill in the gaps with cheaper ones.

My go to brand for new taps and dies is osborn / europa tool. They seem to offer the best quality/price ratio. The higer end HSS presto ones are decent too.

Edited By Hollowpoint on 21/03/2023 09:58:32

[Stuart BridgerParticipant @stuartbridger82290]

I bought a Voelkel metric set via MSC. The taps and dies are very nice quality and get regularly used. It was quite expensive around 100 GBP around 12 years ago though.

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

I had one of these Senator Brand M3-M12 sets purchased from Zoro at work. A size down on your spec. (assuming you don't want M14 as well as M16) but they worked well & completed several large projects without wearing out or breaking any of the contents – even survived Production borrowing them for use in machines on occasion. Senator are one of Cromwell / Zoros brands.

Nigel B.

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

On reflection I ended up going for the Sherwood set from Zoro, it covers the exact range I want to have on-hand, and ultimately the price and portablity of a shadow-foam case swung it for me.

I will probably buy singles of some sizes of spiral flute taps in due course as and when I have projects which require large numbers of tapped holes.

When I actually thought about why I had stuck with dodgy metric sets (when most of my tapping is metric) it was because I kept not having taps to hand whilst working away from the workshop and having to buy cheap sets from the nearest trade counter to get the job done, which then land at home and justify not fleshing out a decent set of core sizes, which leads to breakages and further perpetuates a cycle of emergency purchases.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Jelly on 20/03/2023 22:22:53:

Can anyone point me at a supplier which offers a decent quality (metric) tap and die set in HSS, for a reasonable (for the quality) price?

…

Though I sort of know what you mean, the answer is 'no'!

Sorry to indulge a personal hobby horse, but words like 'decent', 'quality' and 'reasonable' are all meaningless in this context. Better to identify what the tools are for, and then define exactly what 'Fit for Purpose' and 'Value for Money' mean in your particular circumstances.

For example:

• I'm a general hobbyist working mainly in metric (most sizes). I cut hundreds rather than thousands of threads per year, mainly in free-cutting metals. I almost always align taps and dies in a mill or lathe rather than manually. Tools are lightly loaded and used carefully. In my case, 'Fit for Purpose' and 'Value for Money' are easily met by mid-range tools from Tracy, ArcEuro and similar. At my age and rate of work I'm unlikely to wear many of them out.
• My requirement is different from say Andrew or Jason. Andrew runs a time-is-money workshop, which means he values tools with a high-service life that deliver reliable value for money when worked hard. Though Jason is a hobbyist I reckon he cuts about 30 times more metal per year than I do, a rate of work that makes his tool requirements closer to Andrew's than mine.
• The way we each use our tools creates 3 overlapping views of what constitutes 'Decent', 'Quality' and 'Reasonable'. The tools that are 'Fit for Purpose' and 'Value for Money' in my workshop are unlikely to meet Andrew's criteria. Judging by Jason's posts, his buying policy is a smarter version of mine: he also buys mid-range, but orders more knowledgeably than I do when it matters.
• I guess we all treat taps and dies as consumables, not heirlooms!

Workshop requirements also decide whether sets are good or not. Starting with a set makes good sense for general threading in many sizes, and replacing bust taps and dies as necessary makes good sense. Alternatively, standardising on a few sizes only so that a set isn't needed, makes better sense in a more tightly focussed workshop. There is no right or wrong answer, it depends.

Wasting time and money are the most unforgivable sins in professional engineering. Just mismatch the requirement and solution:

• Buy a dirt cheap set of taps and dies, most of which don't get used, that can't cope with the job. Bad idea to order a cheap metric set to tap 200 M3 threads in a sheet of work-hardening stainless!
• Spend money you can't afford at high-end taps and dies and then fail to use them to the full, perhaps leaving cupboards full of NOS to the executors.

Mistakes can be reduced by engaging brain, but learners are a special case: one way of finding out what's really needed is to buy an inexpensive set and try it. I found they work well enough for me provided they're handled carefully and not asked to do too much. I usually cut larger threads by first removing most of the metal with my lathe, so the die only does a minimal tidy up. This is very different to die-cutting rod at full depth with a big wrench, as is often necessary when the thread has to be cut in a hurry! The way the tool is used alters the choice. Hobbyists are another special case – no harm in wasting money on posh tools if it's fun and one has a plenty of spare dosh!

In general there are no 'Wonderbrand' tools providing Everyman with 'decent quality' at hobby-reasonable prices. Instead, there are:

• too-cheap tools, brittle due to poor heat-treatment, and badly ground.
• mid-range tools, properly heat-treated and adequately ground, but made down to a price, and inferior to the best money can buy.
• high-end tools, well-made with close attention to detail, using the most appropriate materials, and carefully optimised for the job in hand. They tend to be eye-watering expensive.

A cruel world and I've had to learn to manage my expectations! Starting out, I assumed the best tools would be within my price bracket, and they're not. Second-hand is worth trying, but know good makes are only a good buy if they're in good condition.

The best I can suggest to beginners is to decide if your work pattern will be most like mine, Jason's, or Andrew's. If like mine, inexpensive tools work reasonably well most of the time within their limits. If like Andrew, there's a high risk the inexpensive tools I find satisfactory will be taken beyond their limits and not last long enough to have been worth Andrew's money. I suspect workers in Jason's class build up a mix of tools selected by experience: inexpensive when they're 'good-enough', otherwise money is coughed up as required. A fourth category is people who enjoy owning good tools, whatever that means, in which case they're free to spend their money as they want.

Maybe the only thing to avoid is going into dither-mode, it's a practical hobby, and hands-on and practice answer many questions.

Haven't consulted Jason or Andrew, and they might disagree with my perception. Everything I've said about them could be wrong, but it's how I target tool buying…

Dave

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 21/03/2023 12:41:14:

Posted by Jelly on 20/03/2023 22:22:53:

Can anyone point me at a supplier which offers a decent quality (metric) tap and die set in HSS, for a reasonable (for the quality) price?

…

Though I sort of know what you mean, the answer is 'no'!

Sorry to indulge a personal hobby horse, but words like 'decent', 'quality' and 'reasonable' are all meaningless in this context. Better to identify what the tools are for, and then define exactly what 'Fit for Purpose' and 'Value for Money' mean in your particular circumstances.

I believe what you're getting at is that I committed that cardinal sin (for which I always curse clients) vagueness of specifications!

I often find myself stuck between two mindsets:

• A poor student/young professional trying to do things for myself on the cheap which is firmly established from my younger years, and
• The one I have at work, where if it's required to tool up an additional workshop space, or to get stuff out the door on time, I wouldn't even have to think before raising a PO for £900 of Dormer or Guhring taps from Eriks, whilst the cost would just be noise on the P&L account of a project running well into 8 figures.

So using "decent" as a shorthand for me was very much "of an adequate standard for semi-frequent use in a commercial environment, such as a maintainence fitter might keep in their van/room/toolchest".

​

In my head I had effectively settled on wanting something firmly mid-range covering the sizes I regularly encounter in repair/automotive use where having them to hand is time-critical and I can't just order what I need and wait three days with a mate's car in bits in my yard/their drive.

(side note: it would be my advice never to let someone who owns a "modern classic" know you have any mechanical aptitude unless you're really good friends).

​

If I have a planned task to do which warrants professional tooling (20:1 ratio 16mm gun-drill jumps to mind), or it will make my life better (CBN turning inserts, Metal-Core welding wire) I don't flinch at buying exactly what I need, but there has to be a clear justification (or very cheap auction lot) to do that.

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