Damaged motor – Not Happy

[Gone AwayParticipant @goneaway]

Posted by Ian Phillips on 04/02/2014 20:31:49:

Regardless of all the various opinions expressed in the thread, the original motor was not properly packed, Full Stop, end of story!

Unless the recipient dictated the shipping method (which happens occasionally – but not in this case):

If the shipment was improperly packed and arrived damaged, the damage is the full responsibility of the sender.

If the shipment was properly packed and arrived damaged, the damage is the full responsibility of the carrier.

Either way, it cannot be, even partially, the responsibility of the recipient

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

It certainly is not the responsibility of the recipient. As you say it is a combination of the second and third of the options you outline. As some have said, the motor is likely to be serviceable and I am well aware of this. However, as I've mentioned previously, when I pay for a brand new, serviceable item, that is exactly what I expect to receive. I expect the supplier to have the common sense and the respect to pack the item in such a way as to be proof against any  mishandling in transit. Anything less is treating me, as a customer, with contempt.

Edited By Carl Wilson 4 on 04/02/2014 23:31:04

Edited By Carl Wilson 4 on 04/02/2014 23:31:57

[WALLACEParticipant @wallace]

It’s no good reflection on the company – I had a oil central heating boiler delivered a few years ago that looked ok on the outside but when unpacked, had obviously fallen on its side and was damaged – the pipes didn’t line up with the holes in the casing.
That was replaced no questions asked – a new one delivered and the damaged one taken away at the same time.
Can’t remember who I bought it from but I’d certainly recommend them !

W.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

You might suggest a compromise solution whereby they send you the replacement foot and reimburse you some of the original price for your trouble. With some companies this might be as much as 100% reimbursement but that's a good starting point for a discussion. To a Scottish-blooded Yorkshireman like myself, this could be a very satisfactory solution. And it would allow you to focus on the job in hand again….

Merry

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Carl, take a look at this **LINK**

from the Citizens Advice.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 05/02/2014 06:47:42

[john kennedy 1Participant @johnkennedy1]

Carl, this wont help you a bit,but just to let you know what you should expect from a good trader.

I had the exact same situation when I bought a motor from Hydor ventilation and control via Ebay. The motor arrived with the connection box smashed. I rang them and they asked for photos to be emailed to them,which I did. They told me to bin that one. Two days later a perfect motor arrived at my door. Fantastic service.

Did I bin the Damaged one? What do you think. John

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Hello Chaps,

Thanks for all the replies and the useful links. Muzzer, as a Yorkshireman who lives in Scotland I can well appreciate your sentiments!

I have to admit I was tempted to go with RJW's suggestion of sending me a new foot, as of course I want to get on with my mill/drill conversion. However, I am in no pressing rush to get it up and running. I decided not to let them get away with treating me like this.

I have yet to hear from them today, no doubt I have fallen down their list of priorities, now that I'm not buying anything from them.

It is quite strange because in the matter of my obtaining a VFD from them, they were very helpful when the one I ordered had been discontinued.

[garyParticipant @gary44937]

carl, trust works both ways, have you proof that you didn't drop it yourself and then simply take photos of it back in the box minus some packing. the company have offered you a new foot , and now a new motor do you want them to fit it as well I feel there are to many people willing to bad mouth suppliers without giving them a chance to rectify, we do not live in an ideal world accidents happen

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

I take it you are calling me a liar. Thats interesting.

The box was opened, the motor was found inside resting on its shaft at a 45 degree angle. There was packaging in the box, ie inflated poly tubes, but not enough to protect the motor and the position it was in they'd have done no good whatsoever. Others have written here about how a motor should be packed, and I received another motor last month from RJW that was packed properly, so they know how to do it.

The Law is VERY clear on this matter. I suggest you read it. Accidents do happen but I am out of pocket now and I do not intend to be further so by buying a new motor elsewhere or paying to return the faulty one I have. If the motor had been packed CORRECTLY in the first place the "accident" would not have occurred. If there is a problem with the courier, then that is for RJW to sort out to prevent this happening again. That said, it was their responsibility to ensure the motor reached me in as new condition. They failed in that regard.

[garyParticipant @gary44937]

carl iam certainly not calling you a liar, just looking at it from both sides, I hope you get an outcome that is going to make you HAPPY BEST REGARDS

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Posted by OMG on 04/02/2014 22:01:44:

Posted by Ian Phillips on 04/02/2014 20:31:49:

Regardless of all the various opinions expressed in the thread, the original motor was not properly packed, Full Stop, end of story!

Either way, it cannot be, even partially, the responsibility of the recipient

Actually, it is the responsibility of the receiver to check the goods on receipt and then refusing to accept same from the courier if any doubt existed. ie "In the event of already externally recognizable damages of the parcel you should – if ever possible – check the contents in the presence of the forwarding agent immediately for completeness and for unobjectionable composition. In this cases insist on a damage report by the carrier".

I think you will find that a standard codicil applies that you sign for the receipt of an item 'in good order'

Failure to do so will make claiming any damage very difficult as you (the recipient) has signed to say all was well with the consignment 'on delivery'.

Carl has no proof in this instance (as far as I can see) that the item was incorrectly packaged, merely that it arrived into his possession in an unfit condition, after being handled by numerous persons apart from the supplier.

It has even been stated that other items have been received packaged correctly from the same supplier, so it would not be prudent to hold the supplier solely responsible for the received item condition.

As the supplier has agreed to a return, this should be carried out as soon as possible, and the sender is responsible for the return postal charges, however, these should be refunded on receipt of the item by the supplier in accordance with the distance selling regulations (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2334/regulation/14/made see para 5).

So, in a nutshell:

1, the item was received and signed for in good condition.

2, some time later the item was found to be damaged and unfit for purpose.

3, the supplier has agreed to a return of the item with the inference that a replacement will be supplied.

Get the item returned and obtain the replacement.

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

First of all, the item received was not signed for as being in good condition by me or anybody else. It was left by the courier in an agreed safe place.

I have to say that I am quite frankly astonished at the amount of support being shown for the supplier in this matter. I reiterate that the motor was incorrectly packed and this is the reason for the damage. So it is down to the negligence of RJW in not ensuring correct packing.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Lofty76, you say it would not be prudent to hold the supplier soley resposible for the received item condition, well actually it is, take a look at the link I posted from the Citizans Advice in which it states that; the trader is reponsible for the goods up to the time they are delivered to you and you do not have to prove they were damaged during delivery. It then means therefore, it is the traders problem to sort it out and find and deal with the appropriate blamer as the courier is contracted to the trader and not the customer.

Regards Nick.

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Hi Carl,

The supplier is totally responsible for the safe arrival at your address of the motor in question. He is also liable to pay any costs incurred to return the damaged goods and supply you with the item you paid for!

Tony

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Hi Nicholas and Tony,

Thanks for the support, I appreciate that fully. A lot of barrack room lawyers on here, aren't there?

[Chris123Participant @chris123]

Posted by Lofty76 on 05/02/2014 18:13:54:

Posted by OMG on 04/02/2014 22:01:44:

Posted by Ian Phillips on 04/02/2014 20:31:49:

Regardless of all the various opinions expressed in the thread, the original motor was not properly packed, Full Stop, end of story!

Either way, it cannot be, even partially, the responsibility of the recipient

Actually, it is the responsibility of the receiver to check the goods on receipt and then refusing to accept same from the courier if any doubt existed. ie "In the event of already externally recognizable damages of the parcel you should – if ever possible – check the contents in the presence of the forwarding agent immediately for completeness and for unobjectionable composition. In this cases insist on a damage report by the carrier".

I think you will find that a standard codicil applies that you sign for the receipt of an item 'in good order'

Failure to do so will make claiming any damage very difficult as you (the recipient) has signed to say all was well with the consignment 'on delivery'.

Carl has no proof in this instance (as far as I can see) that the item was incorrectly packaged, merely that it arrived into his possession in an unfit condition, after being handled by numerous persons apart from the supplier.

It has even been stated that other items have been received packaged correctly from the same supplier, so it would not be prudent to hold the supplier solely responsible for the received item condition.

As the supplier has agreed to a return, this should be carried out as soon as possible, and the sender is responsible for the return postal charges, however, these should be refunded on receipt of the item by the supplier in accordance with the distance selling regulations (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2334/regulation/14/made see para 5).

So, in a nutshell:

1, the item was received and signed for in good condition.

2, some time later the item was found to be damaged and unfit for purpose.

3, the supplier has agreed to a return of the item with the inference that a replacement will be supplied.

Get the item returned and obtain the replacement.

Youve quoted the terms and conditions of a courier company, that isn't UK law! Even stranger the quote seems tohave come from a foreign courier company?

Anyway, the courier can say what they like, the consumer dealt with the supplier, the courier company has nothing to do with him.

I don't believe their is any courier company who will let you open a box before you've signed for it. Believe me I've tried! as for signing to say it's in 'good condition' how do you know the courier company hasn't trashed the parcel then opened it and put the contents into a new undamaged box?

The supplier is solely responsible as the courier is a third party. But the courier is responsible to the supplier.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Do we have any actual lawyers on here ?

You know genuine ones, – not bar room.

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

It would be appreciated if what was written was read correctly.

I am merely making a point that you cannot make assumptions without adequate proof.

Many people handled that motor, dropped it, kicked it around etc, and it may, just possibly, have left the supplier in good order.

The supplier, for his part and quite correctly has offered you the means of a replacement item, and I have covered the means as to which you will be reimbursed for any charges made by yourself.

You cannot expect the supplier to pay you to return an item until the correct amount is known and receipted (it stops fraudulent claims), and he may not have an account that covers return collections. To set one up just for you would not be viable.

Why you insist on boring me at least, and possibly others with a non-model engineering related subject I can't imagine, and quite frankly if you had returned the item as requested by the supplier, this thread could have ended halfway down page one.

And Nick, you are quite right, but until Carl sends the item back the supplier can't / won't do anything.

Additionally as you again quite rightly say, you do not have to prove damage in transit, but a refusal to receipt, leaving the item with the courier gives far more credence to the story, and of course it would have been returned to the supplier free of any charges to the consignee.

Interestingly enough, and I'm not sure if I got the correct RJW Engineering, but it clearly states in their terms and conditions: Returns are credited for the returned item(s) amount including VAT and do not include a refund of carriage unless RJW Engineering (Manchester) Ltd are at fault with the items shipped.

Returns are credited for the returned item(s) amount including VAT and do not include a refund of carriage unless RJW Engineering (Manchester) Ltd are at fault with the items shipped. – See more at: http://www.motorsandinverters.co.uk/Delivery-1.html#sthash.GtuiR48J.dpuf

Returns are credited for the returned item(s) amount including VAT and do not include a refund of carriage unless RJW Engineering (Manchester) Ltd are at fault with the items shipped. – See more at: http://www.motorsandinverters.co.uk/Delivery-1.html#sthash.GtuiR48J.dpuf

Returns are credited for the returned item(s) amount including VAT and do not include a refund of carriage unless RJW Engineering (Manchester) Ltd are at fault with the items shipped. – See more at: http://www.motorsandinverters.co.uk/Delivery-1.html#sthash.GtuiR48J.dpuf

[Chris123Participant @chris123]

Posted by John Stevenson on 05/02/2014 23:58:18:

Do we have any actual lawyers on here ?

You know genuine ones, – not bar room.

No idea.

Some of us have studied consumer law though.

People need need educating on it TBH as retailers like to fob you off with inaccurate information.

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

An interesting point re delivery; you say that " It was left by the courier in an agreed safe place." At this point the courier has delivered it to you whether this is your home address or behind a barn door. If it is then left unattended, assumed as there was nobody to sign for it, until you collected it who is to say that the damage didn't occur after the motor was left especially if the courier claims it was fine when it was delivered.

Just an idle thought.

Martin

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Thank you Lofty, for deigning to let me know what I can and can't do. I'm sorry I have bored you. You chose to read the post and then chose to comment on it. Not model engineering related? The supplier I'm having troubles with is a VFD and motor specialist, so I'd have thought there was some relevance there.

By grouping together and sharing information about suppliers we help each other and prevent unscrupulous dealers getting away with murder. I thank all those who have posted helpful links that have saved me much time researching the sales of goods/distance selling regulations.

I did not ask for the contributions from all the armchair Rumpoles out there. And then you wonder why no-one wants anything to do with your ME clubs.

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Carl,

I would never deign to tell you what to do, should you wish to not follow a standard procedure that's entirely up to you.

However, I cannot see the point of labouring a subject when you refuse to take the advice of the supplier and then moan about them.

Martin W has just voiced a very possible scenario so now an element of doubt has crept in, albeit unrelated to the return of the item, but does again empathise my point of the seller not being wholly responsible, and just for clarity, that means that they may have packed correctly and the damage occurred elsewhere, NOT that they are not liable to sort your problem out.

So, I take it you are not a club member? well sir, my clubs are doing very well thankyou very much, and so are the majority of others that I have dealings with, so again your view seems to be somewhat limited.

For Chris123, I never stated that my first quote was UK law (the second one obviously is), but again pointed this out as an example that most couriers have a policy for the receipt of damaged items.

So you don't believe a courier will let you open a visibly damaged box until you have signed for it? ok so don't sign for it, tell him to return it – the problem solved.

If you subsequently find the item damaged in 'good' packaging, follow the procedure and return the item as previously described – the problem solved.

[LambtonParticipant @lambton]

Carl,

I really think this saga has reached its end point and I suggest that you accept the best deal that you can negotiate with the supplier. If you keep your totally understandable indignation going it will only eat away at you. Sometimes in life you just have to accept the best practical solution and get on with enjoying what you like doing.

Very best regards

Eric

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

I've just ordered some stuff off the net, the seller insists that it is signed for as" unchecked" to make it easier for him to claim. I always do anyway. This van delivery is a cut-throat business, what usually happens is the overnight trunker drops off at a depo, then the little guys pick up and deliver locally. Thats what happens round here anyway. Some years ago I had heavy wrought iron panels to deliver, van came to collect from me , driver just threw each one into the back,on top of all sorts of parcels, teles, cut flowers etc. Goodness knows what condition they were in.

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