Cylinder Boring Techniques for Steam Engines

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Hi Will,

Sharpening the cobalt boring tools, I only give them a stroke towards the cutting edge, if it was badly damaged I would go on the wheel.

At the moment I am lubricating with PTFE loaded oil which is a bit thin, but the PTFE is bringing out all the muck and then I will go to a multigrade oil, not that I will need much. 10 W 30 grade sounds about right but I think it is mostly synthetic oil now.?

Found a little problem with the piston and piston rod, when the piston is tightened onto the rod it is canting over so I will make new rods slightly longer and recess a couple of mm into the piston which will keep it straight. With 3mm dia thread it may cut slightly off and wander. I will have to turn a couple of hundredths of a mm off before I thread the new rods.

All the honey is nearly sold now, all over the UK honey production is down about 60%, personally I am down about 40%. this is a bad season, all down to the weather. We all live in hope though, a friend has lost 2 hives so far and I hear news of lots of bee keepers losing 1 or 2 hives through failing to supersede the Queen. I now have two hives left to collect from and I estimate about the same amount as I have already taken if I am lucky. Ivy is the next plant to flower and the bees will make straight for it like all the other insects. There is another plant, Marsh sage but it does not flower very well in cooler weather, my hives are very close to the tidal river and I have seen them working the Marsh sage.

Clive

[Will RobertsonParticipant @willrobertson16447]

Hi Clive,

So for the cobalt tools am I right in thinking just a stroke on the fine diamond stone to shapen (no need for oil or water stones). (These seem like high quality tools so I want to be sure that I know exactly how to care for them – I hate seeing tools being attacked by people who are ignorant of how to use them – **LINK** .)

Yes – the 10w30 is part-synthetic. Based on your advice I'll use it. 200 litre drum next door so no shortage of it

Should I try to use this oil as cutting oil or should I look for something more appropriate?

Thank you very much for the information about the piston and piston rod – I'll bear that in mind as I plan mine.

Very interesting to hear more about the bees. I'd never thought about how plants time their flowering in that way.

Today 150 years of steam navigation on Waldstattensee were celebrated with an illumination of the fleet. I can try to upload some (very badly made) videos if anyone is interested. It's amazing to see 150 year old steam engines still in daily use – especially given that most mechanisms made now are designed to disintegrate irreparably after a year or two at substantial environmental and financial cost.

Will

[VersabossParticipant @versaboss]

Posted by Will Robertson on 25/08/2012 17:28:23:

…

Hi Hansrudolf,

I live at the North end of canton Schwytz – near kussnacht am Rigi and Luzern.

Look-a-there! Well it's Schwyz (with a long yyy), but Search.ch knows you nonetheless.Nice coincidence, just next to my garage. But the car was serviced 2 weeks ago, so no visit planned in the near future. I will send you my address via PM, so if you feel inclined you can come over for a bit of workshop talk.

Greetings, Hansrudolf

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Hi Will,

I would be dubious aboyut using the Lube oil as a coolant, as its long chain polymer with the synthetic part it would get everywhere.

I use a can of WD 40 and if I want to cut wet I dispense a little into the plastic cap and use a brush against the work as the cut progesses.

The Cobalt tools very seldom need sharpening unless you want a particular shape to cut, they come with the correct geometry for use out of the box and they just do the job as is.

Clive

[Will RobertsonParticipant @willrobertson16447]

Hi Hansrudolf,

>but Search.ch knows you nonetheless

I suppose since they've put my telephone number online I should get a telephone…

It's been interesting living next door to these two legendary mechanical geniuses – and helping out on tasks that need an extra pair of hands. Come over and visit any time. Everything (garage, house, et all) is due to be demolished next year to build concrete flats. (I think the plan is to gradually demolish the entire canton and cover it in concrete.)

Hi Clive,

Many thanks – I'll get some WD40 and use that – nice and simple. (You're right – all those sticky long chain molecules in the semi-synthetic do make a bit of a mess.)

The Cobalt tools seem a world away from HSS

Will

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Glad you still got a decent harvest Clive. I( noticed today flowers covered with hoverflies, but no bees

Neil

[Will RobertsonParticipant @willrobertson16447]

One part I forgot to mention. To get the steam into the valve block I was planning to simply thread a hole in the valve block then connect the piping using a Single Pipe Union (or similar). Seemed really simple, easy and flexible. Unfortunately I'm having problems finding metric Single Pipe Unions in model sises (imperial are easy but not metric). Does anyone have any suggestions?

Edited By Will Robertson on 26/08/2012 22:39:40

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Hi Neil, I noticed yesterday that a lot of larger Hover flies were out, much later this year than I have seen before. Some of them very brightly coloured.

With over 300 species of Hymenoptera ( Lace Wing insects) the weather controls their life.

This year we have seen very few Wasps and my wasp trap has only caught about 3 so far where normally I would have a full trap. Unless they come very late then its a bad year for wasps as well.

I have seen no Dragon flies so far, they usually hang about the garden but then the Nymph can stay as a nymph for up to three years in its underwater life cycle.

Clive

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Will, I am sure the pipe threads and connectors are not Metric but follow the Pipe Thread sizes, someone will tell us if they are not.

Reeves 2000 have a good selection of copper unions and items for pipe work.

Clive

[Alan JacksonParticipant @alanjackson47790]

Clive.

I had my workshop door open yesterday and a great big green dragonfly flew in to check the lighting etc. Managed to open the window turn off the lights and help him out, don't like spies checking out my bodging, probably even now having a laugh with the other dragonflies at what he was up to in there.

Alan

[Will RobertsonParticipant @willrobertson16447]

Hi Clive and Alan,

I tried Reves but their pipe unions seem to be all imperial. After a bit of searching, metric pipe unions do seem to be available from http://www.dampfmodellbau-keifler.de/

I think you're maybe right re. the pipe threads. I don't mind the steam pipes being imperial but I'm trying to avoid taping imperial threads anywhere on the engine. Maybe I'm using the wrong approach?

Not many dragonfly here compared to last summer.

Will

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Not many full size engines ( except very small ones ) were ever connected up using pipe unions – the flanged joint was much more common .

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Unless its an American engine in which case they love their threaded Maleable iron fittings.

 

And here is another site with metric (fine pitch) threaded fittings

 

J

Edited By JasonB on 27/08/2012 13:23:36

[Will RobertsonParticipant @willrobertson16447]

Hi Jason,

Thank you very much – that's exactly what I'm after.

Hi Michael,

Thank you very much as well. That is a very good point. I'll think it over in detail.

I know I must come across as someone who hates imperial. I've got a collection of farm engines (Lister D Type, Stuart Turner, Petter) which are all imperial and I love them to bits but I come from the metric generation so it's more intuitive for me for anything small and precise. Metric also keeps the number of taps and dies to a minimum (I can borrow more exotic ones when needed).

Will

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

@clive

Isn't hymenoptera membrane-wing? Lacewings are the delicate green things that come to a light at night.

I was startled by an orange underwing moth in my workshop today. Quite big, but not hawk moth sized. Also a darter dragonfly of some sort in the damp garden. I haven't seen any hornets this year, last year there were dozens on the windfall plums.

@will don't feel bad about it I think many of us are the last fully bilingual (metrc & imperial) generation.

Neil

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Hello Neil, bees and the like are kept under the generic name Hymenoptera ( Lace wing)

You may be confusing the name Lace Wing with a type of insect that has that name, that insect is a benificial insect and eats Aphids. Its name is, 'Neuroptera'

Bees come under, 'Apis Mellifera'

Regards the Hornets, are you definatley seeing Hornets? or wasps.?

We are expecting an invasion of a large Hornet that has already reached the Northern shore of France and Spain, whether it will be able to cross the Channel is causing a lot of concern. Most of all to Bee Keepers as the Hornet will target the entrance of hives and kill bees as they come and go.

There is also a larger Hornet which I believe is the Asian Hornet whicch is also causing concern and in both cases if seen should be reported to the, Insect Identity, British Museum London, with a sample if possible. It is a case, 'When' not , 'If' as they can hitch rides in hibernation in pots of soil when plants are brought in from abroad. If they ever get here then they will be obvious as the are nearly 4 times the size of ordinary wasps and very distinctly colpured, yellow and black.

Clive

[VersabossParticipant @versaboss]

Posted by Will Robertson on 27/08/2012 19:16:06:

Hi Jason,

Thank you very much – that's exactly what I'm after

Will, I was not quite sure what you want, but stuff like that you can get almost literally just around the corner.

Have a look here. and search in the "Katalog"

Greetings, Hansrudolf

[Will RobertsonParticipant @willrobertson16447]

Hi Clive,

Worried to hear about the proximity of the hornets. How destructive are they to the bees?

Now that the metal stock is decided on I reckoned I'd start on the tooling. Please let me know if I've got anything wrong:

For milling the valve faces of the slide valve of the S50 and other general milling I reckoned a handful of HSS end mills **LINK** rather than the carbide end mills (10 times more expensive) **LINK**

For milling the block of scrap cast iron for the base plate will the HSS endmills be tough enough or should I fork out the extra cash for carbide? (Guessing that carbide endmills may be difficult to sharpen without a specialist stone.)

I'll just hold the endmills in the existing ER collets and collet chuck on the milling machine – that should easily be strong enough for light cuts (correct me if I'm wrong about any of this…).

I think there are enough parallels, mounting bolts, etc for the milling machine.

For boring Reboring tool IFANGER ASB Standard, cobalt **LINK** (let me know if this is appropriate or not – I may have misunderstood your recommendation)

Will

[Will RobertsonParticipant @willrobertson16447]

Hi Clive,

What did you think of my proposed choice of tools? Let me know if I've got everything right and correctly understood your advice on the Chrome boring (oops – "internal turning&quot tools. Also let me know if my guess re. endmills is right – I've never had access to a milling machine before so I'm guessing.

I'm not enjoying this choosing-of-tools-and-stock very much – it's too much like work! – but I know that I have to get it right before I can start the enjoyable part. Thank you very much for all your help and advice.

Knee has healed enough for me to walk with one crutch and walk short distances without crutches so I reckoned that it was safe for me to set foot in a machine shop again. (I reckoned that trying to hobble about a busy machine shop on crutches would have affected the safety of others.) I faced off that random lump of scrap brass and it turns beautifully – very confident that I can turn it to high precision and a good surface finish

Hi Hansrudolf

Thank you very much for the link. It's really good to know that there's a company like this nearby, I'll visit them as soon as I can.

Will

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Hi Will , just noticed your posting, What dia bore are you doing? that would determine the type of boring tool size that you need.

I can extend my biggest boring tool about 3" from the tool holder, I would have to look to see which size it is. It is one of the tools with interchangeable heads. Its the bored length that worries me, your boring tool should be long enough to go right through the bore.

The milling cutters seem OK and should give a good finish to the job.

You can always lap the sliding faces on a piece of glass plate using a fine abrasive, rouge is good to finish off but then it laps itself to the other face anyway.

Re the Hornets, they will over a short period reduce the hive population considerably. The Hornets kill the bees and return to their nest to feed the larva and then more will follow.

The bees do have a defence and that is 'Balling', they bundle the hornet in a ball of bees and its temperature rises rapidly and it dies. But, bees die doing it.

One answer is to make the entrance just a small hole which is easily defended but this leaves bees at risk as they come into land and that is where the Hornets operate.

Another is a sheet of glass over the entarnce, the bees find their way past either side but a visiting Hornet will bounce off the glass.

We will have to see what happens if they do get over here, until then i will not worry.

Clive

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Sorry Clive, I don't have the benefit of a classical education, but 'hymen' is definitely membrane, not 'lace' in Greek.

I'm 100% sure they are hornets – in my line of work, you pick yup afaier bit of entomology (I'm an ecologist/botanist by training).

I get 2 or 3 queens a year in my workshop (I nearly picked one up by accident last year). Here are pics of ordinary workers, one on a plum and one found dead on our doorstep. The plum photo is a bit poor, as I was surrounded by about two dozen at the time.

I once walked into a shed on a nature reserve used for storing tools, I heard a faint buzzing and turned round to see I had walked under a small hornet's nest. At 6' 2" I must have missed it by a hair's breadth. I walked out very slowly and they didn't show me any agression (I understand they sometimes react to CO2). From my several encounters with wasp nests, i think I was lucky it was relatively docile hornets!

Back on topic, Will, as Cluive says, sharp HSS will give a lovely finish on decent quality cast iron.

Neil

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Hello Neil, had to look in my book of insects and your right, bees are Hymenoptera and Lacewing is a seperate genus. (Chrysoperla Carnea) Somehow I have got them together from somewhere.

I agree with you about the Hornets ( Vespa Crabro) but they are not the invasive Hornets expected from Europe. Very good predators but not to be encouraged around habitation. Kill the Queens that emerge in the Spring from hibernation and also when they come out to mate in the Autumn.

This year there is a very low incidence of common wasp, a few flying about and some damage to my plums on the tree. I have only caught at most 5 in my wasp trap.

Overall this year there has been a decrease in numbers of Bumble bees and Honey bees and Wasps. all down to the damp cold Spring.

When my Father was alive we would do wasp nests, him the lower ones , me, the ones in and on the roofs. Now you need a licence and insurance and the pesticide is exorbitantly expensive, no wonder they charge £80. per visit.

Clive

 

Edited By Clive Hartland on 01/09/2012 09:36:37

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

> Kill the Queens that emerge in the Spring from hibernation and also when they come out to mate in the Autumn.

Tsk! Tsk! I'm a dedicated hornet lover The queens seem to like hibernating in my workshop and sometimes wake up if I turn the heating up midwinter.

I suppose I even have a soft spot for wasps, although I have done stupid things like tread on one underground nest and put a fencepost into another.

Yes a poor year for many things, the dry winter promised excellent butterfly numbers, but the rain put an end to that.

Neil

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Neil, I see wasps as complete nuisance as they harry the bees at the entrance to the hives. The bees guard the entrance to deter them and sometimes I have to reduce an entrance to a small slot.

Clive

[Will RobertsonParticipant @willrobertson16447]

Hi Clive,

Sorry I've been a bit quiet for a few days.

The lump of brass a friend gave me is 30mm diameter so after a bit of thought and discussion guessed at a 20mm diameter bore with a 30mm stroke. I think I can visualise the tool I need to buy but I'm just a little uncertain about the exact part number. I'll maybe look up some possible part numbers and post them before I buy.

The glass sounds an interresting way to help reduce the hornet problem. Hopefully they won't come to the UK though.

I used to think that rouge only worked on soft metals but over the last few days I've learned otherwise.

Hansrudolf very kindly showed me his workshop and took a lot of time explaining an enormous amount.

One thing I forgot to ask: If a metric thread is used for medels is a coarse or a fine metric thread usually used?

Will

Edited By Will Robertson on 04/09/2012 21:14:06

[Author]

Posts