Cylinder Boring Techniques for Steam Engines

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Hi Clive,

A bit OT but have you heard about this discovery of British Black Bees in a Northumbrian church? I'm sceptical they could be there fo 100 years and nowhere else!

Is it true they were thought to be extinct, or was it just BBC hyperbole?

Neil

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Hello Neil, They often find the original, 'Black English Bee' but it nearly always turns out to be a dark Hybrid variety.

In the 30's , what is knoown as the, 'The Isle of Wght Disease' wiped out most british bees. Now most bees in the UK are hybrid bees from imported varieties from Italy and Scandinavia and some other countries. There is very little control over the wild fertilisation of a Queen bee in flight, in fact she goes out to mate about 10 or 12 times so she may mate with several different types of Drones.

If they are genuine British Black Bees it will be a very nice thing to breed back the true British bee.

In fact in Denmark there is an island that has bees that are said to be Black Bees and no bees are allowed to be taken there otherwise they dilute that strain of bee.

It will take years and of course they would still be subject to wild mating. I often get asked for, 'Pure Bred Bees' that will not swarm and are not aggressive. I laugh and just carry on. The quality of a queen is paramount in the hive as she rules with Pheromones, as soon as the bees detect that the queen's pheromenes are failing they prepare a queen cell and she lays an egg in it and then they supercede her.

In the Spring the natural instinct of bees is to propagate themselves , hence swarming which is the bane of every beekeeper.

Lastly, I doubt very much if a colony of bees could last so long without dilution of the gene's that govern the type of bee they are. Even if they are proven to be genuine then all the other bees around will dilute that pool.

Please ask any questions that interest you.

Clive

[Will RobertsonParticipant @willrobertson16447]

Very interesting to learn more about the bees. I share your doubt that the bees in Northumbria could have lived in genetic isolation for a hundred years. There's a lot of interest in 'pure' Scotts Pine seed – a notion of limited validity since there haven't actually been that many generations of Scotts pine since the last ice age.

The cocking handle on the SA80 thankfully got replaced in the SA80 A2 – a big relief for my ribs. I remember a lot of nostalgia for the SLR… before my time.

I couldn't find http://www.pts.uk.com – maybe there's a typo in the URL? Really interested because most model suppliers are only imperial but I see metric as the way forward for new engines.

When you lapped the bores of your two cylinder engine did you use a set of cylinder laps/break laps?

Hope the swarms are under control for now.

Will

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Hi Will, nice to hear from you again, yes the bees have now stopped swarming and with the fine weather over the last week have been very busy foraging and drawing out comb.

I have upgraded three nucleus boxes to full size National hives to keep up my hive numbers. I lost two hives over the last winter.

The address for pts is wrong, here it is again:- pts-uk.com My bad for using . instead of a – in the middle. It will be OK now.

When I lapped the bronze bores of the steam engine I used a piece of PTFE slit down the middle and a tapered screw to apply pressure. I applied 1000 grade abrasive and the pistons fitted fine.

Today I have been making some of the linkage in S/Steel but it is hard work as the holes are 2mm and the drills do not like the s/steel.

You have not said if you are improving in yourself Will, hope you feel better and more mobile now.

Clive

[Will RobertsonParticipant @willrobertson16447]

Hi Clive,

Sorry to hear about the two hives you lost over the winter. I've often wondered if some form of small low-power thermostatically controlled electric or gas heater could be used to warm the inside of the hives at the coldest times and help the hives survive over the winter. Do you give them fondant over the winter (very popular in Scotland)?

Am I understanding "1000 grade" correctly – is that ISO/FEPA grit P1000 with particle diamiter 18.3 micron? (I'm having to improve my understanding of this sort of thing.) Is bronze hard enough that there's no need to worry about the abrasive embedding itself in the metal surface?

http://www.pts-uk.com look great – wide range, metric and they supply small quantities. Many thanks.

You'll know much more about drilling stainless than me. One thought did come to mind though – in the first shop I worked in we didn't have flood coolant on the pedestal drill so used to squirt on coolant from a bottle sold to spray water onto plants. It seemed to help a fair bit when drilling harder metals.

Re. me I'm due to be allowed to drive again next week. Will be on crutches for a while longer. Typical to survive over 10 years ice climbing without injury then to have all this trouble as the result of a simple everyday lifting accident!

Will

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Hello Will,

Good to hear you have more mobility, the car will extend your freedom.

The abrasive is what you have described, I have had it for many years now and use little else when lapping. A little goes a long way.

Regarding the overwintereing of the bees, in the Autumn I do a last Varroa treatment and make sure they have stores of honey. That is I leave one shallow box over the brood chamber that I never touch and this gives them about 12 to 15Kg. of stores plus what they have in the brood chamber.

Its natural food and is better than white candy (Fondant) Heating the hive will do no good as it will make the bees active and they will consume more food. Thay can stand -5C for periods of time as long as they are dry. Moisture is the killer for them.

What happens with my losses is not starvation but the failure of a Queen, the bees try to supesede her late in the Autmn and as there are no drones she cannot mate and therefore the bees kill her off and then dwindle away. I then find that situation in the spring but can do nothing except move them to another location and then amalgamate them to a Queenright hive. but as I have made up my hive numbers I do not bother and in any case if the wax moth gets in then its had it anyway.

The only fondant feeding I do is for 5 frame nucleii that I have overwintered for early sale in the Spring. Everything depends on the weather as you know.

Drilling the S/steel means using Cobalt drills and I am awaiting some coming through to complete the job. The stainless steel is work hardening and the drills are not going through as I would like. Even reamers are a problem. I broke one last night.

Clive

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Will, I was wondering if you could do a personal profile and then you could do,' Personal messaging' (PM)

It would be easier to do messages rather than put them on the Forum postings.

Clive

[Mark P.Participant @markp]

I always bore my cylinders on the boring machine and then run a fine hone through them. By the way Will I still have a soft spot for the SLR but would prefer an AK47!

regards Pailo.

[Will RobertsonParticipant @willrobertson16447]

Yup – that's a good idea – I'll try to do that – this topic has gone a bit off-topic.

Back on topic – did you drill then ream or drill then bore before lapping the cylinders? What did you use for the piston? (Would I be right in guessing a cast iron piston for a bronze bore?)

Let me know how the drilling goes with some water based coolant squirted liberally into the hole during drilling with the cobalt drills. My theory is that water based coolants have a much higher specific heat capacity and thermal conductivity than cutting oil and so should hopefully help to carry heat away and reduce local heating, reducing work hardening – not sure how strongly this works in practice though. We used to adjust the bottle so that the coolant came out as a jet rather than as a spray.

Will

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Intersting to learn more about the bees. thanks Clive.

The Olympics are tempting me to make a target and pellet catching box, so i can do some 10M air rifle shooting in the back garden.

Neil

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Hi Clive ( et al) I don't think you need a personal profile to send a PM. Just log in and go to "My Messages" – "Compose New message" – enter the addressees screen name in the "To" box and the message below.

As far as bees go I can't recall seeing any this year ( in rural Devon) . We have a large hebe in our garden which flowers at the end of June and is normally swarming with bees. Not a single one this year. Worrying eh?

Norman

 

Edited By NJH on 28/07/2012 22:35:07

Edited By NJH on 28/07/2012 22:37:02

[Nathan SharpeParticipant @nathansharpe19746]

Hi Clive and Will,

Please keep this thread going in public, I can't be alone in finding it both informative and fascinating. It seems to cover my main interest, an interest from years ago which I'm trying to afford and an interest in bee keeping with the aim of supplementing my winter income!! I'm also learning a heck of a lot !! Like you Clive I prefer the L1A1 and it's 7.62mm round, 223 just feels too light. Like you Will I need the help of people like Clive and others who always offer advice and encouragement.

I hope the knee allows you better mobility Will but spend your cash on materials not ice screws, I and my son have spent a fortune over the years on ice/rock/hill gear but my favourite bit of kit is a 1970s Stubai ice screw now used as a corkscrew!!

Nathan.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Haha, I did not know we had a following Will.

I am happy to keep it going if you are. It seems the Forum likes the 'Chat'.

Norman, yes, the bee numbers are down this year as my Lavender normally has a very high Bumble bee attendance but this year I would say about half the number that normally visit. In general the number of bees of all types is down including wasps. There will be a resurgence of insects shortly as the higher temperatures hatch more adult insects. The Ants have started to put out Queen Ants in the last few days.

Of interest is that they have recently re-introduced a type of Bumble bee back onto the Dymchurch marshes. It became extinct some years back as farming methods changed but now they have re-created the right environment and the Black Hairless Bumble Bee is back in residence. They obtained the bees from Norway/Sweden and overwintered them artificially in the UK. They were released in April this year. I am awaiting reports of how they faired. An earlier attempt with bees from New Zealand failed as they died in hibernation.

The South West has had a lot of inclement weather this year and so the bees have been late in developing but now the weather has cleared they will pick up quickly like they have here. Mine have roared away in the last week of sunshine. Another interesting thing is that my orchard has Sand Lizards in it and this year there seems to be a lot more than usual.

Neil, make one of those rotating pellet targets, balanced so it always comes upright again. The pellet stop just needs to be a sheet of metal, with a wooden backing inside a wooden box. Other wise old phone books. You only need to stop ricochets.

Will, I bored the cylinders and left them until I had carried out all the brazing assemby then I lapped the bores. Then I had to make a spigot jig to machine the top and bottom faces. Only then could I machine the steam ports and drill the steam passages.

I have just ordered some more Cobalt drills from someone on Ebay, perhaps these may drill better and get through the S/steel. At the moment I am hand filing a quadrant that has a 2mm slot. I could not cut it any other way. Thats 2 of them as well, one for each end of the engine. Its all 2 offs or even 4 offs for this engine.

Nathan, there are plenty of bee courses if you are a Tyro, if you have bee keeping experience then jump in straightaway, dont hesitate. Read all you can and subscribe to a bee magazine like Beecraft. I can give you details if wanted.

The 7.62mm round is one I like too, having had several types and calibres of rifle including Magnum and Express rifles the 7.62mm is about the best. The .223/5.56mm is fine on Foxes and was originally designed so that small stature people like the South Vietnamese soldiers could handle it. The 7.62mm is a fine 'Suppression' round and with a GPMG keeps the enemies heads down. There is no ideal round as such, as the weapons are used for different purposes, big game hunting or vermin control. A lot comes down to the skills of the shooter anyway. Tracking, observing and bullet placement. An air rifle in the right hands is quite lethal but not on elephants!

I have just uploaded some photos of the steam engine, in bits but shows the type of build etc.

Clive

Edited By Clive Hartland on 29/07/2012 10:17:05

[AESParticipant @aes]

Will,

You've started off a fascinating and VERY useful topic, so although I have no interest at all in building steam the whole thread (sorry!) is excellent. As someone else has already posted, please keep this thread open, your own comments and the replies are very valuable to me.

I too live in Switzerland, have done for over 20 years, and having married a Swiss lady it's permanent now – Passport, voting, taxes, the whole bit. I'm also in the German-speaking part, in the NW, about 20 mins out of Basel. Drop me a line (PM if you like, but note I'm overseas for about the next 3 weeks). Tell me where you are and I may be able to help you a bit re local suppliers.

But you're right, compared to UK, Swiss suppliers of our sorts of stuff, both tooling and materials, are pretty thin on the ground. One thing I have found (if it's an "emergency" and/or if you don't mind paying relatively high prices) is that odd stuff like small Metric nuts & bolts (1.5mm up, Fine & Coarse, hex head and socket head) can be found quite easily in local aeromodelling and RC car & helicopter shops. But as said the price of a packet of, say 10 off 2mm nuts and bolts in such places is pretty outrageous (as a mate of mine said "At least Dick Turpin had the decency to wear a mask!)

So I've tended to use UK suppliers and as above, send me a msg and I'll send you a list of reputable suppliers that I've dealt with on the net (usual disclaimers).

I did have about 1 week (I think it was) of "latheing" in my RAF 3 year aircraft engineer's apprenticeship, but that was only a week, and it was in 1961!

In other words, I'm very much a complete novice with my Chinese Minilathe, and as has already been said, the whole set up lacks rigidity (especially if you lock the toolpost down on top of a bit of swarf between toolpost and topslide bed – !).

So at risk of going OT I'd like to widen this thread a little further. please.

All the beginner's books and articles I've read make a great "Hoo Haa" about parting off. Maybe it's just beginners luck but (touch wood) I've never, ever, had a problem with this (using a thin-blade HSS parting blade bought for LMS in the US – again usual disclaimers), set up in the "usual postion" no revese direction and rear toolpost necessary for me). This is on ali, brass, MS, CI ("Meehanite&quot, and silver steel – even on some hexs, not rounds.

BUT, OTOH, I'm always having HUGE problems with boring big (ish) holes, to the extent that virtually all my attempts in no way deserve the description "round".

I start off with going up in 2-3mm steps with decent twist drills in the tailstock drill chuck up to my max dia (13mm). Overhang on the larger sized (therefore longer) drills is a problem on the Minilathe so I do start off with a problem bore, especially if it's a deep hole. Even drilling from both ends doesn't help a lot.

But after that (and with great dread) it's out with the boring tools (HSS, round shank items that fit into a toolholder with a round hole in ti – again from LMS but since buying those I've seen precisely the same items advertised by loads of other suppliers).

So my first question is "What's the point of the round shank and the "holy" tool holder?" We're told so often to be careful with the various cutting edge angles, but looking end on, it's dead easy to "rotate" the boring tool before securing to virtually any angle and there's certainly no degree of angular accuracy there – it's just by eye.

Second, exactly the same is true when looking at the tool holder from above – you can set it at virtually any angle relative to the centre line that you like. Again it seems to be just eyeballing it.

So how do you set these tools properly please?

Never mind all your talk of mirror finishes, all my bores would make a ploughed field look like a high class putting green!

I do pay a lot of attention to minimum overhang (tool and workpiece) but whatever I do about angles and overhang, rpm and feed depth, I get lots and lots of chatter, lots of "tool dragging", and the deeper the bore the worse it gets.

Any suggestions greatly welcomed.

Krgds to all, and I hope you're soon better Will.

AES

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Hi AES

I have found that the inserted HSS type boring tools (and many others) need a lot of care for good results. You MUST ensure there is no way they can rub below the cutting edge, noting taht swarf can get carried round and up into the space below the toolbit – result bad finish and conical holes.

The best results I've got have been on cast iron, using a vacuum cklenaer ofn teh far end of the mandrel to sucl away swarf before it can cause a clog.

Obviously this suggests using a small bar, but don't – use the biggest bar you can for rigidity.

Neil

[Will RobertsonParticipant @willrobertson16447]

An enormous amount to reply to… I'll try my best to reply to a few mounts now and a few tomorrow.

Great that there's such strong interest in cylinder boring.

A reason given to the move to lighter 5.56mm ammunition was that it was intended to injure not to kill – an injured soldier caused a lot more problems for the enemy than a dead one. I've never had any interest in boring rifles – I think they were part of my life for long enough that I was happy to leave them behind. As Clive said, it all comes down to the effect you want the weapon to have.

Hi Pailo,

be good to hear a bit about your boring machine. I think boring machine is beyond the means of most folk on here so we have to do what we can with lathe and milling machine. Some of the boring heads for milling machines do look fairly substantial though.

Hi Nathan.

My ice screws have seen good service and hopefully will see more in the future. They're mostly bought form one or two high quality manufacturers now (poor quality screws are a big problem on steep ice) but in the early days they were home made from mild steel then heat treated to improve hardness. I once had 3 men hanging from one of them on a route on Ben Nevis but I dread to think what might have happened under shock load… thankfully nylon dynamic ropes have a lot of dynamic…

Hi AES,

The names of some Swiss suppliers would be very useful – I'm in canton Schwytz – I am finding it difficult here and I don't want to take up fiends' time putting small orders through their businesses. When buying anything of any sis from the UK I ask UK suppliers to supply it ex. VAT (exports outside the EU are exempt from VAT). Maybe once I've recovered enough to use a lathe again I can have a look at some of the some of the things that are causing you problems.

Ni Neil,

Interested to hear about your use of a vacuum cleaner – may help a lot of folk for whom flood coolant isn't available.

Hi Clive,

Thank you very much again for all your help. I thought I was the only person who counted and categorised bumble bees in my childhood – good that other people find it fascinating and I'm learning a lot from you. In Scotland it was fairly common to have hives up in the mountains over the summer to make Heather Honey then bring them down to the valleys for the winter so that the bees didn't die in the mountain winters. Thanks for the photos of the engines.

Will

[AESParticipant @aes]

Will,

I’ve dealt with the following and found them all thoroughly respectable & reliable –usual disclaimers. Some of them are “obvious”; some of them may be a surprise. But as above, I’ve had good results with them all.

—————————————-

Arc Eurotrade (small tools, lubricants, bearings, machines, etc) – when you put a Swiss address into the shopping cart their website automatically knows that Switzerland = nil VAT

**LINK**

——————————————

For all the rest of the following it is as well to remind them that Switzerland is NOT in the EU, therefore Nil VAT.

BTW, when the goods arrive home, I’ve found it’s entirely “the luck of the draw&rdquo as to whether or not you get charged Swiss import duty and MWsT (VAT). Sometimes it gets charged, sometimes not, I see no rhyme or reason for it.

—————————————-

Allcap Ltd (large range of various fasteners)

**LINK**

—————————————-

AtelierMB (steam castings & bits & pieces + a few small tools – as I’m not into steam I’ve not used them)

**LINK**

(website in D & E)

——————————————

Chronos Ltd (tools and general materials)

**LINK**

—————————————–

GLR Ltd (tools and general materials)

**LINK**

——————————————

GW-Werkeuge (Germany, but good English – tools and some materials)

**LINK**

——————————————

Simply Bearings Ltd (as the name implies, bearings!)

**LINK**

——————————————-

Little Machine Shop (USA – 100% tools and lathe & mill spares but website also has a link to a good metals supplier)

**LINK**

——————————————

(Clive Hartland has already given you “Marcels Machines” for S/H lathes & other machinery – mainly high-end)

——————————————

Model Fixings Ltd (small tools, nuts & bolts –BA, small Metric, etc, – small bearings, drills, taps & dies, etc)

**LINK**

——————————————-

Noggin End Metals (mainly non-ferrous, CI, & eng plastics)

**LINK**

———————————————-

The Tap & Die Company, London (as the name suggests!)

**LINK**

————————————————

and just down the road from me (about 1.5 hrs from Zug) there’s a decent live steam track with regular events. Website:

**LINK**

————————————-

The above should keep you going for a while. You’ll have to wait until I get back home (3 or 4 weeks yet, I’m overseas) then I’ll copy some other stuff I have and send it to you (your home address by post or E-mail).

I also have a few tips on getting metals locally – there’s a lot of industry in Zug and you shouldn’t have too many problems once you can "work the system".

Hope there’s something for you in the above.

All the best

AES

[AESParticipant @aes]

Neil, (Stub Mandrel)

Thanks for your comments, I realise this is a HUGE subject but your comments are very helpful, thanks. I'll have to wait a few weeks toget home to the shop before I can try anything but you can be sure I'll be back to you.

Cheers

AES

[Will RobertsonParticipant @willrobertson16447]

Hi Clive,

Did you bore the cylinders of your engine using an HSS boring bar or a boring bar with an indexable carbide or fixed carbide tip? Am I right in guessing that a normal boring bar would be fine for cylinders of this sise and that a between centres boring bar only becomes necessary for longer cylinders?

Will

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Hello Will, I turned the cylinder up from bronze bar and as its a built up part with five parts I drilled through as a start and then fine bored the cylinder nearly to size..

I then made all the other parts to fit and then brazed up the assembly, I then made an expanding jig to fit in the lathe chuck and mounted the made up cylinder onto it so that I could machine the top and bottom of the cylinder assembly true.

Then I lapped out the bore with an adjustable lap made from a bar of PTFE, it all seems fine and the pistons fit well,

Further maching was then carried out for steam passages etc.

My boring tools are the insertable type and the holder is like a square split collet that fits in the tool post. These are available from Brutsch Reugger in Zurich. Perhaps you can get a catalogue from them. The boring tools are also available for internal screw cutting in 60 and 55 degree.

It is a versatile series of tools and are Cobalt grade.

Today I looked at a 3 bee hives and they are doing well, I found boxes with sealed combs of honey and the bees are flying well despite the rain and wind. I was thinking that the weather would stop the bees gathering any honey but they semed to have had a good week with the sunny weather last week.

Clive

[Will RobertsonParticipant @willrobertson16447]

Hi Clive,

Thank you very much again – am I right in understanding that you're very particular in choosing the best quality boring tools?

I had a look at the Brütsch Rüegger catalogue – are your tools from the Coromant series (sorry – I didn't see tools marked as Cobalt – maybe I'm misunderstanding)?

Very good to heat that you finished the bore with an indexable carbide tipped tool –

Have you ever built a Stirling engine? I remember the cryogenics engineer at Sheffield a Stirling Engine he had made at the end of his training and I was always in awe of how a gas-tight seal could be made with such low friction.

Great that the bees are doing well despite the volatile weather.

Will

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Hello Will, I can take a photo of my Boring tool collection and post it for you to see. At the moment the draw they are in is hidden behind a pile of frames for the bees.

One thing I havent got is space ! These boring tyools have a round body and the toolholder is a square section with a sawn slit that is used to clamp the tool in the body and then in the tool post.

The tools themselves have different heads, straight, angled and screwcutting and come in different sizes from about 4mm to 12mm diameter. When you see the picture you will see what i mean.

Just had to remake 8 flanges as I had drilled the holes in the wrong place and they would not mate up and match the holes for bolting up, luckily in brass so it was quick.

Getting tales of woe from beekeeping friends as their hives founder due to the weather. Its all down to the weather really as the Queens cannot fly and mate, when they do they are of poor quality and the bees know this and want to supersede her but again because of the weather it all repeats itself. It never was like this years ago as the summers were summers and the bees never needed attention like they do now.

Re the Stirling engine, no, I never have made one though I think that they require a lot of careful work and dedication.

I much prefer the more solid engines like Steam and Locos, also IC engines.

Clive

[Will RobertsonParticipant @willrobertson16447]

Hi Clive,

That would be interresting to see a photo of your boring tool collection. I've seen the toolholders before but it would be very interresting to see the boring tools you use – there are a lot out there so knowing which are good would be a big help in chosing one.

Sorry to hear about the flanges. It gives the rest of us encouragement though knowing that even experts get things wrong sometimes so we're not alone when things don't go according to plan.

The same climatic changes seem to have messed things up for ice climbers and beekeepers alike.

I'd never understood that the mechanisms for supercedeing a queen were so sensitive.

Will

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Hello again Will, I have uploaded some photos of my Boring Tools selection.

The trade name Is Ifanger.

They have an extensive expensive tool catalogue ! I have just looked through it and found the tools I have.

If you now look through your Brutsch Ruegger catalogue you will also find them in there.

Clive

Edited By Clive Hartland on 04/08/2012 22:41:43

Edited By Clive Hartland on 04/08/2012 22:41:57

[Will RobertsonParticipant @willrobertson16447]

Wow. I have to admit that I've never seen such a large collection of boring tools. I'd thougth that most folk just had a handful or two to cover different sises.

For the detachable head boring tools, what are the different heads for? I'm guessing there are heads for screw cutting, finishing, roughing and internal shoulders but I'm not sure.

I've found Ifanger – I think I missed them because they're "internal machining" not "boring". They list Internal machining ASB, ECS, DK, GWS, TRG, etc. but I'm not sure how to work out what those codes mean (some are clearly specialised but I'm not sure which are just simple boring and bore finishing).

Are they easy enough to sharpen?

Will

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