Crap vee blocks and “Oxford Precision”?

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

I've got a lovely pair of Mitutoyo vee blocks that I bought for £15 from my favourite market stall, secondn hand. Good as they are, they have almost never been used! So, look for s/h quality tooling, much cheaper and generally better, especially for things like this that are almost never used and so don't wear out!

[An OtherParticipant @another21905]

Having been near as dammit penniless most of my life (or at least not having money to spare on luxuries for a hobby), I always had to take the path of trying to make do with what I had, or make something better in order to pursue my interests.

Looking at old copies of ME and similar mags, there was often emphasis on developing your own equipment, or devising alternative ways to achieve satisfactory results. It is surely a good thing that companies such as ARC do their best to provide equipment and tools which at one time could not be had for any amount of money – if you don't like what is offered, don't buy it – don't buy it then moan about it. You have always got the alternatives outlined above and in other posts in this thread.

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by larry Phelan on 26/06/2017 15:31:48:

Hi Bandersnatch,

Dont feel too bad about your vee blocks

I don't feel bad at all about my v-blocks, Larry. I'm quite happy with them in fact.

Perhaps you were looking for Choochoo-baloo?

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Bear in mind that Cromwell Tools supply Industry, ( And their prices tend be Industrial!) so if they sold rubbish, professional customers would soon vanish. My employers (before I retired, and now) have Cromwell as one of their many suppliers. As one of the world's largest manufacturers of their product, cannot believe that they would buy rubbish for long. Any doubts over dimensions and the item would soon be in a temperature and humidity controlled Standards and Calibration Room, awaiting a pretty searching check.

Have never had reason to return or criticise any of the measuring equipment or tools that I have bought from them, which is more than can be said of Machine Mart. (Would you replace in the showcase a vernier just returned by a customer for a 0.004" difference between Inside and Outside jaws?)

Have never worked for, or had any connection with Cromwell, other than as a user or customer.

Howard

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by An Other on 26/06/2017 18:44:09:

if you don't like what is offered, don't buy it – don't buy it then moan about it.

Even if what you bought was not what was offered?

The OP clearly stated "supposedly ground precision vee blocks" and "were not ground on the vee surfaces"

I'd sure as heck moan under those circumstances. If, on the other hand they had been offered as "unground, dimensionally inferior v-blocks" and were purchased as such, then you would, indeed, have a point.

(… and lets be quite clear. The OP only mentioned ARC as a means to identify the type of v-block. Not that they actually supplied this kind of carp )

[choochoo_balooParticipant @choochoo_baloo]

Posted by Muzzer on 26/06/2017 08:47:06:

What a silly, thoughtless post by the OP. You can indeed buy utter crap from "the far East" but you can also buy absolutely top notch stuff from there. Same with UK made stuff (if it really is UK made in the first place) – there is plenty locally made crap available too. Far better to sit back in your armchair and never spend a penny – that way you won't waste a penny either.

Why not buy based on reputation? That's how some retailers gain a loyal following, based on years of careful work, sourcing good quality parts and giving good customer service. If you've been on this forum for any time you will know that the retailer you mention consistently gets pretty good feedback.

Murray

1. What is silly or thoughtless about questioning good and poor quality tooling? I did not realise it was a taboo subject.

2. Please do not put words into my mouth RE Arc the company. The reality is that Warco, Clarke, Axminster etc. all get their same manufacturing from the same few factories (source: Axminster employee). Thus it's valid to question the quality of unbranded tooling.

[choochoo_balooParticipant @choochoo_baloo]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 26/06/2017 13:52:45:

Jumping to conclusions about the quality of a product depending on where in the world it was made is illogical. If you read industrial history you will find that assumptions of quality based on Nationality always been dubious. Birmingham was once infamous for churning out cheap nasty tat even though many seriously good firms were also located there. Nowadays it's even more difficult to generalise. Manufacturing and services are much more globalised. Design, manufacture, sales, tax, management, ownership etc. can all be based in different countries. What's manufactured by anybody will be aimed at a market: as Ketan remarks this has space for the good, the bad and the ugly.

Rather than worrying about country of origin, you're better off buying by specification and checking it. As this is liable to be costly and time consuming, buying by reputation is quicker, though you always need to confirm that a reputation is still justified. A brand-name is nowhere near as solid as a reputation: when a company goes out of business their brand-names are usually sold to the highest bidder. I always treat brand-names with suspicion.

My V-Blocks are fine for what I use them for. I've no idea where they were made.

One thing about the methodology used in the 'crap' video worried me. The diameter of the dowel is small in comparison with the size of the V block. The chap may have been measuring the accuracy of the notch at the bottom rather than the accuracy of the V surfaces. I wish he'd used something bigger: Jason's test with the shank of an HSS cutter is much more convincing.

I'm quite intrigued to know what will be made in the Choochoo-balloo workshop. Not a criticism, but chaps new to metalwork don't normally start at the precision end of the hobby: it's expensive. If the plan is to own 'quality' tools for pleasure rather than profit, that's fine by me.

Dave

Thanks for the constructive reply Dave. Yes I'm well aware of the largely globalised nature of modern manufacturing. Having had bad experience with far eastern tooling before, and then watching the aforementioned video, I decided to seek the wisdom of fellow members.

Yes the 'quality tooling for pleasure' is indeed a motivator for me!!

[choochoo_balooParticipant @choochoo_baloo]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 26/06/2017 21:45:28:

Bear in mind that Cromwell Tools supply Industry, ( And their prices tend be Industrial!) so if they sold rubbish, professional customers would soon vanish. My employers (before I retired, and now) have Cromwell as one of their many suppliers. As one of the world's largest manufacturers of their product, cannot believe that they would buy rubbish for long. Any doubts over dimensions and the item would soon be in a temperature and humidity controlled Standards and Calibration Room, awaiting a pretty searching check.

Have never had reason to return or criticise any of the measuring equipment or tools that I have bought from them, which is more than can be said of Machine Mart. (Would you replace in the showcase a vernier just returned by a customer for a 0.004" difference between Inside and Outside jaws?)

Have never worked for, or had any connection with Cromwell, other than as a user or customer.

Howard

Thanks. Useful information Howard. That Machine Mart anecdote is uncomfortably familiar!

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

I have recently bought several items from ARC, one of the items being a standard machine vice which has been machined to a finish, as I intended this vice to be used mainly for first or rough cutting I didn't buy the dearest, in fact it was only a mid-priced item.

Once unpacked I removed the swivell base as I have no need for it (yet) and mounted the vice to my mill. My only negative observation was the bolts and washers supplied to fit it are not the best, so i substituted them.

Once fitted I dialled it up to see where I was going to have errors or problems, I couldn't belive how accurate it was. 1 thou difference between the jaw hieght when opened up to 75mm (sorry for mixing units, 3&quot. Overall the quality and finish far surpassed my expectations at the price I paid.

Other than being a repeat customer I have no connection with 'ARC' and maybe I have just been lucky, but I now have a feeling that the guys at ARC are a bit fussy about what they push out to customers in order to maintain their credibility. I will certainly continue to buy with confidence from them and will of course let them know first, if I do find something is not as it should be.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by choochoo_baloo on 26/06/2017 22:09:25:

Posted by Howard Lewis on 26/06/2017 21:45:28:

Bear in mind that Cromwell Tools supply Industry, ( And their prices tend be Industrial!) so if they sold rubbish, professional customers would soon vanish. My employers (before I retired, and now) have Cromwell as one of their many suppliers. As one of the world's largest manufacturers of their product, cannot believe that they would buy rubbish for long. Any doubts over dimensions and the item would soon be in a temperature and humidity controlled Standards and Calibration Room, awaiting a pretty searching check.

Have never had reason to return or criticise any of the measuring equipment or tools that I have bought from them, which is more than can be said of Machine Mart. (Would you replace in the showcase a vernier just returned by a customer for a 0.004" difference between Inside and Outside jaws?)

Have never worked for, or had any connection with Cromwell, other than as a user or customer.

Howard

Thanks. Useful information Howard. That Machine Mart anecdote is uncomfortably familiar!

Howard and ChooChoo you may want to read Ketan's post again particularly the second paragraph

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by choochoo_baloo on 26/06/2017 22:00:05:

The reality is that Warco, Clarke, Axminster etc. all get their same manufacturing from the same few factories (source: Axminster employee). Thus it's valid to question the quality of unbranded tooling.

That's only true with respect to some products, the more complex ones like machine tools, vertical slides and rotary tables. However even with these one factory often produces a wide range of specifications (take mini-lathes for example) and this can include fit and finish. Some of the very cheap imports you see can be the machines rejected for supply to established customers.

For general tooling (especially that used by industry or in huge quantities) like cutters, v-blocks, calipers, drills there are innumerable suppliers and a huge range in quality. Even a single distributor may source from different suppliers over time.

Neil

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by choochoo_baloo on 26/06/2017 22:00:05:

2. Please do not put words into my mouth RE Arc the company. The reality is that Warco, Clarke, Axminster etc. all get their same manufacturing from the same few factories (source: Axminster employee). Thus it's valid to question the quality of unbranded tooling.

I would like to clarify. Sourcing is a lot more complex based on many factors, to include country of origin, as well as relationships. There are some overlaps with certain products from certain factories among all the suppliers, but for a good percentage of products, the sourcing is well spread geographically throughout China, by all importers, rather than limited to a few factories only. Also, various grades of products are available from the same factory, based on what the importer wishes to pay, as well as what relationship the importer has with the said factory.

For India, the focus is based more in and around Delhi, and heading towards the Punjab. The overlap of product between importers is far greater from this origin, especially for what you see in the hobby market. However, here the quality is far more open to question. With exception to Zither chucks (for whom we have a high level of trust), we employ the services of a company based in Delhi, to do all the buying from specific manufacturers, check, pack and supply product to our requirement. This operation has been developed by us over two years. That part of the journey has been very difficult. There is a rejection rate picked-up at origin, with which neither of us are happy with, but the the inspection process works for us. Initially, ALL Indian manufacturers were peed off with us, but they still agreed to play, as we are paying higher, for a specific specification which they agreed to pre-purchase. Our purchase costing from this region is higher than many of our competitors, but it is cheaper to deal with rejection at origin, than having to deal with problems once the goods are in the U.K..

So, you raise a valid question ChooChoo. As a beginner?.. you dont know ARC from Adam before you buy. Reading various comments on this thread, I think the general concern is one about how you raised the question – i.e. Thread Title: Crapy Vee blocks… followed by the opening comment… the unbranded far eastern type from Arc … and a YouTube video of unknown origin … all together could possibly give the impression with one sweaping 'thought' (rightly or wrongly) that all far eastern stuff – Indian or Chinese could be crap. I am sure that it was your intention to ask about the quality of Far Eastern stuff, but it has come across in a negative way.

Sellers in this industry are equally responsible for the correct and incorrect information we spread through our marketing, and at the end of the day, it is up to you to decide who and what you believe. So take it easy and enjoy the hobby

Ketan at ARC.

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

.

If the OP so strongly about it presumably he will not mind putting his hand deep into his pocket to purchase 'Satisfactory' ones made by Mitutoyo then.?

Nick

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

I would like to add, on the Indian front, what we reject goes back to the manufacturers who then sell it off – as is – to other local – Indian – trading companies, and they in-turn DO sell the rejected stuff on ebay.

I am sure that other legitimate importers go though processes which are similar to us, and I know that the stuff they reject also ends up on ebay. If such a buyer/user figures out that there is a problem with a product, he/she can automatically presume that all such product is crap, which is unfortunate for all legitimate sellers, be they on ebay or not.

Ketan at ARC.

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

Talk about a storm in a teacup !! Like the last man said,"If you want the best,buy the best". That said,the stuff being offered should live up to it,s claim. Fair play to ARC for making it,s position clear.While I dont think they were being singled out,they were being put in the line of fire,unjustly,I think.Let me add that I have never bought anything from ARC,not yet anyway,but who knows?.

For those who want bargain basement vee blocks,do as we do over here. We just chop off two bits of angle iron and weld them onto a lump of flat and away we go.Might not look the part but they,re cheap ! What,s a few mm here or there? Sure with a drop of paint on them,you,d not know the difference,never mind where they came from.

Life is too short to get your knickers in a twist over something like this,just dump them and move on.

PS We are working on a rotary table built around a car wheel,might be better than the one I bought !

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Nick_G on 27/06/2017 12:58:36:

.

If the OP so strongly about it presumably he will not mind putting his hand deep into his pocket to purchase 'Satisfactory' ones made by Mitutoyo then.?

Nick

Hi Nick,

I think that the OP is looking for guidance, given the choice available. I think that he has indicated on this and on another thread that he is prepared to put his hand in his pocket for a higher priced product, guided by what various people on the forum say.

Ketan at ARC.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

I think it's a shame this conversation even exists. Thirty years ago, you could be fairly confident that what you bought was fit for purpose. Now the culture seems to be keep exchanging until you get a good one. Chisels and screwdrivers were made from decent steel. Any equipment that was assembled or adjusted by machine screws had machine screws not made of cheese. Products were generally built to last regardless of what market they were intended for. I know the argument is you get what you pay for but the default position is that the buyer should EXPECT less than stellar products. I disagree. The price makes the product competitive. It should not be an excuse for accepting poor products. Again thirty years ago, if something was even remotely below par, people would take it back to the retailer. Now people advocate just junking it and putting it down to experience. I've seen cheap lathes from respectable retailers that have wonderful finish on the bits you can see and shoddy finish on the bits (which still need to be functional) you can't. I find this deceitful although there is sufficient wriggle room to allow the manufacturer to "get away with it". On the same note, I wonder how much stuff simply gets junked because the buyer can't be bothered to go through the hassle of complaining. Again, a case of the manufacturer getting away with it. I confess to not even having a point to make about the subject because the world is what it is other than to say there is a very real pleasure in using good quality second hand equipment without the stress of "no confidence" that some new tools bring with them.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Chris Trice on 27/06/2017 14:45:15:

. Again thirty years ago, if something was even remotely below par, people would take it back to the retailer.

Like the Winfield lathes ? The Pooles and the Sooper Adapts of this world ?

Even the Myford ML1's to 5's were adulterated junk

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Problem is the people who buy items of e-bay or Aliexpress for a few quid direct from country of manufacture do find it easier to bin it than send it back as postage alone would be more than they paid for the item.

Unfortunately they then assume all stuff from the same part of the world is below par.

What this thread has shown is that the OP won't be getting a better item by buying "Oxford" brand than he would get if he went to ARC and bought their equivalent for half the price. At least ARC are open about where their goods come from and don't try to dress them up with a once respected name and charge a premium for doing so.( Stevenson named products excepted)

J

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Frankly ground to within 0.001" on all faces and matched for around £13, seems a bit ridiculous to expect amazement from them. They probably couldn't give a toss if it's 0.1mm taper in full length.

Michael W

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

I have been more than happy with my purchases from ARC/Chronos etc. I spent my working life as a toolmaker and still have quality tools from 50 years ago. Now nearing 70 and using my machinery as a hobby the quality for the money is good. I no longer need stuff to achieve super accuracy or last another 50 years.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I think there's a big element of rose-tinted glasses about what you could buy 30 or 40 years ago, certainly on the DIY market. Across hand tools and test equipment I recall a huge range in quality from excellent to utter 'use it once' crap. Obviously most of the crud ended up in the bin years ago, so now we only see the better stuff.

I also think most buyers were too deferential to return anything back in those days.

Neil

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 27/06/2017 15:54:08:

I think there's a big element of rose-tinted glasses about what you could buy 30 or 40 years ago, certainly on the DIY market. Across hand tools and test equipment I recall a huge range in quality from excellent to utter 'use it once' crap. Obviously most of the crud ended up in the bin years ago, so now we only see the better stuff.

I also think most buyers were too deferential to return anything back in those days.

Neil

Had the internet and the forums been around 30 years ago, perhaps things would have been more transparent.

Ketan at ARC.

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

I think that one of the issues is that with the advent of the internet, it is so easy to price compare.

Secondly, there is so much choice now, again because of the internet, and more importantly easy access to what you want to purchase. One click and it is yours.

I was talking to someone the other day, and we were discussing how, if you wanted to buy a piece of machinery 30 years ago, your choice was probably limited primarily to who advertised in Exchange and Mart, and you would rush down to the shop as soon as it opened to get the latest copy, to try and steal a march on anyone else.

Photographs of what you wanted to potentially purchase prior to the advent of digital cameras, email and smartphones? No chance, you had to get in your car and go look at it.

That coupled with the fact that there has been a change in buying perspective over the last 30 years or so, because so many people now buy solely based on price, i.e. the cheapest, and it is no wonder there is such a huge choice from the far east and India these days.

The problem is that people expect Moore & Wright and Eclipse etc (UK produced items quality) at far east prices.

It ain't gonna happen.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

It seems that all sorts of prejudices are creeping in to this topic. I really cannot get my head around it. We should all be aware that old British tradenames have been sold off when the company closes. Look at Alba and Bush in electrical goods. They both produced half decent products. Today they represent the bottom of the market and made presumably in China.

The answer to this topic is really quite simple. Buy from a reputable dealer who provides the appropriate quality and service, at a price you are prepared to pay! Simple as that. If you buy from Ebay at knock down prices you will invariably get a knock down product.

Once you have found the right dealer, then stick with them. I am a returnee to the hobby and I have found that ARC meet my requirements. I am sure there are other noteworthy dealers, but I am not going to risk it.

I have one other observation about Indian products. I am an aeromodeller who loves diesel engines. There is an Indian company by the name of Sharma, who manufacture model diesel engines as a sideline. Their build quality is absolutely outstanding. Now I am not sure what their main line of business is, but if they make tooling, then it is probably of equally superb quality!

Andrew.

Edited By Andrew Tinsley on 27/06/2017 16:52:24

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