CovMac Lathes

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Phil,

Thank you very much for taking the trouble, and what a surprise. It will change completely my rough calculations for the gearbox gearing which at the moment check out very nicely for a leadscrew of 4 tpi.

Just as well I asked you to check it, I can rework things accordingly.. Chris tells me the big move is happening this weekend.

Best wishes

Brian

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Hi All, No problem Brian, my pleasure.

Chris, Gloves! Safety shoes (steel toecaps) Slow and steady, and good luck with it all! I can't wait to see it all cleaned down.

Phil.

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Hi All, No problem Brian, my pleasure.

Chris, Gloves! Safety shoes (steel toecaps) Slow and steady, and good luck with it all! I can't wait to see it all cleaned down.

Phil.

Edited By Phil Whitley on 25/09/2014 21:04:01

Edited By Phil Whitley on 25/09/2014 21:04:43

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

[CHRISTOPHER MILLS 1Participant @christophermills1]

Planning the CovMac Move:

Having removed clutch pole, and its twin mountings, tailstock, gear guards, gap piece, motor, motor plate, and removed four bolts holding bed to the legs, de-concreted plinth and legs, we intend to remove the headstock and shackle it to a cradle and pallet in upright position.

Leaving the carriage on, because we cannot work out how it comes off, we will go in with a 2 ton engine hoist set upon its 1 1/2 ton position, and lift the bed down onto a custom made pallet. This is a very short lift – lifting the bed about six inches to clear the tray, reversing it about two feet, and lowering it onto pallet. We should get a balance, I figure, between a pole inserted through the eye under the headstock, and that part of the bed where it rises towards the tailstock.

We estimate weight of bed and carriage to be about 1200 pounds, so the hoist should cope on its 1 1/2 ton position.

Then we will shackle the bed to the pallet, and wheel it, on two hefty plates of plywood, and castors, to the road, where we will use the engine hoist again to lift it onto our trailer.

We will use wood blocking to protect the lead screw and power feed bar from the lifting chains.

I am unsure, where to place the carriage, towards the tailstock end, or the headstock, or somewhere between?

Views on all aspects are welcomed, particularly upon the carriage position.

I have never done this before, but have given it a lot of thought, and have taken advice from many directions.

In running the lathe bed out to the road, if I use two sheets of 1/4 inch ply, placed alternately as we go, it will smoothe the ride. The journey from shed to road is all on level concrete.

Many thanks for all help received from members of this forum, so far; it has all been very useful and reassuring.

Chris.

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[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Hi Chris, Sounds like a good plan to me, and I think you are right with the plywood, sweep the concrete as clean as you can, and take out anything growing in the gaps of the area you have to pass over, when you have a lot of weight on, you find every pimple in the surface. If you lift between the through holes and a web as near the end of the bed as you can get you can use the saddle to get the balance. When moving anything with the engine crane carry the weight as low as possible, preferably across the legs of the crane, then it cannot swing or tip the crane. Watch your fingers and toes. Good luck, and good moving!

Phil.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Chris,

I agree with all that Phil says with one little addition; close the 1/2 nuts onto the leadscrew when you have the saddle balance position right..

My final comment is to secure the pallet itself down to the trailer bed so that it can't shift about and have a couple of bags of sawdust [enclosed in second bags] handy to keep things well separated in the journey home; you will be surprised at how much slack will develop in the tie straps, chains and shackles just from road vibration.

Have a safe and dry trip.

Best wishes Brian

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Nice one Brian, also there is a ball handle at the back of the saddle next to the single T slot, this is the carriage lock.

Phil

[CHRISTOPHER MILLS 1Participant @christophermills1]

Thanks, gents. I am looking forward to the move.

Chris.

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

When does it happen Chris?

[CHRISTOPHER MILLS 1Participant @christophermills1]

Hi Phil,

It will undoubtedly happen on a day in October (2014).

I have one more recce visit, likely this week, to undo the fourth head bolt, de-concrete the legs & plinth, remove motor and motor plate, tidy up, and remove all loose stuff.

I am further waiting on the seller to remove a couple of tons of scrap from the garage, through which the lathe will have to be run to the road.

Tonight, I am just thinking preparation for the lift has to be done in more and deeper detail, to protect lead screw and power feed from lifting chains.

I really wanted to remove the carriage, but have not been able to work it out, even with everybody's advice.

My theory was, with power shaft and lead screw both disengaged, in neutral positions, that the carriage might be simply rolled right off the bed to the right, in toto, but my engineer friend in London said that will not work – why, he did not elaborate. I feel I am still right, that it will, but I have not the help to do it before the big move day, when we will not have the time on the day. The carriage stays on.

Also, Brian's latest advice, on lifting from the eyehole and the most extreme tailstock end, has changed my plan A – I was going for more of a central position, likely on the bed step up. Have to think it through more.

Brian's positioning advice seems likely to have the lifting chains running quite horizontally. But, it might be the best way of balancing it, giving better control.

I have not done this before.

Also, with the carriage on, there is a lot in the way of the chains, and I will have to plan this better.

I may go down, with the crane, before the big day, just to lash it all up ready to lift. I do not want to waste the time of the friend who will be with me on the day.

We have a tight schedule day, on the driving. We are starting out in London, the lathe is in Southampton, and it is going to a house of mine in Somerset, where the lathe may live for a year or so, and then we are returning to London.

Any more thoughts will be gratefully welcomed.

Chris.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited By CHRISTOPHER MILLS 1 on 28/09/2014 20:00:46

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Hi Chris, I think you misunderstand Brian, what we mean by the bed lift is to place a tube through the holes, and attach a long strop or chain to it, attach the other end of the chain to the other end of the bed, as near the end as you can get it, then put the crane hook in the centre of the chain, lifting as near to the centre as possible. The two parts of the chains over the hook should be at about 90 deg to each other and as you lift you will see if the bed is lifting evenly, if not move the carriage towards the light end till the weight is even and the bed stays horizontal. I am at my shop tomorrow, I will look at the bed and see if I can find good attachment points other than where the tube goes through.

Phil

[CHRISTOPHER MILLS 1Participant @christophermills1]

Phil,

Many thanks, yes, I may very well have misunderstood Brian's advice here.

I am just trying to imagine, on extreme fixing points, eyehole and tailstock end, how high the hoist hook will have to be. It also seems to me that there might be a lot of 'sag'.

It seemed logically balanced to me, on eyehole and bed step. But that viewpoint is likely not taking into account the carriage.

Will very much appreciate any more wisdom you can put my way, by looking at your own CovMac.

These lathes are such magic!

Best.

Chris.

 

 

Edited By CHRISTOPHER MILLS 1 on 28/09/2014 20:32:32

[CHRISTOPHER MILLS 1Participant @christophermills1]

Having thought this through a bit more, I am now sure you are both right, that the lifting chains need to be at the headstock eyehole, and at the end of the tailstock end of the bed. Then the weight will be better balanced and manageable.

Many thanks.

Chris.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Chris and Phil,

I haven't looked at pictures, but it did occur to me this morning that the headstock support box structure may have internal mounting holes for bolting down. Why else include the little hatch? My shaper is held down that way.

Whether or not that is the case I don't know and even if it is the added security might not have been used at Southampton; I just mention it..

It will not be easy to find enough headroom for the crane hook over the bed when lifting on the chains to optimise the angle between them over the length they are to be spread; it will all be a compromise.

Just bear in mind that the wider that angle the less effort goes into lifting and more into trying to compress the lathe bed which throws a lot of side strain onto the two ends of attachment. You might even find that the lifting eye holes below the gap in the bed are at more or less at the natural point of balance for the bare bed, the thinner tailstock end having the leverage to counterbalance the shorter thick end under the headstock.

If that proves to be so then the main weight could be carried vertically up to the crane hook and one man at the tailstock end will be able to stabilise the bed as you lift it.

Again, safe working please.

Best wishes Brian

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello again Chris,

At the risk of being regarded as becoming a pest, other thoughts came to mind while I was lawn cutting this afternoon.

1, Is the swarf tray a separate piece from the bed and the legs? I imagine it is trapped by the bolting between legs and the lathe bed. That might be a thickish sheet metal tray, or even a casting. It could be a nuisance when the legs are removed and it will need managing.

2. Until you are VERY sure the crane has got the weight of this load held securely, I would leave the leg bolts finger tight, the headstock end might be a self supporting box but the rather elegant legs on the tailstock will be top heavy and very unstable when the weight comes off. I know I said in an earlier thought that propping these items was wise, until you get the bed roughly balanced on the crane there could be a bit of lurching about with unpredictable sideways effects on those supports. I don't for one moment imagine you will be able to lift off cleanly in one move and adjustment to carriage position may well require a number of test lifts until you are happy with everything

Does this seem appropriate Phil?

Best wishes

Brian

[CHRISTOPHER MILLS 1Participant @christophermills1]

Many thanks Brian – I still have the option, though it will increase time pressure on the day, of de-concreting legs after the bed is lifted off.

Presently, nuts holding plinth and legs on are all off. I could replace them.

Almost certainly, the chip tray is presently a loose item sitting heavily sandwiched between bed and legs. There would not appear to be any other attachments aside of the four bolts, which I have removed.

I could de-concrete headstock plinth, but leave tailstock legs in their fillet of cement until the bed is moved?

That sounds a safe way of managing the tray?

I agree, the tailstock legs are a bit delicate looking, and Phil said his flexed alarmingly when he was moving his CovMac.

Chris.

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Evening all, I have been taking pics again, first the carriage lock, tighten it down once you have closed the half nuts.

then I got my best rope strop and mocked up how I would lift the bed once the headstock was off

and finnally the lifting point, putting the hook of the crane where the shackle is, just above the tool post.

you can then try a lift to see if it is balanced and move the carriage either way to achieve this, then lock it .

My order of the day would be;

Put the leg bolts back on, or when you try to lift the headstock it will lift the whole lathe if the headstock is stuck with paint.

Remove the headstock, pallet it and trundle it away.

free the legs from the concrete.

Try a lift on the bed, get it balanced and lift the bed just clear of the legs. (now it geta "hairy&quot

take out the legs and place the bed pallet over the legs of the engine crane, blocked up on timber baulks so the crane is not trapped under the pallet.

Lower the bed to the pallet and strap it down.

If you need to go out of a doorway to exit the shed, use the crane one end at a time to remove the baulks and lower pallet and bed onto rollers.

once outside you can pick it up again and place it across the engine crane legs, leaving some weight on the crane, and trundle over the plywood sheets to the road.

If you do it this way, you will not have to move the engine crane with the bed at height (ie to clear the legs) which is very risky.

Having said all this, moving lathes at 300 miles range is easy, it is easy to not appreciate the full magnitude of problems you may have to deal with, you will be there, unfortunately, I will not. I am now seroiusly considering moving my covmac in bits, because I have to get it through a doorway, and I don't know if I have sufficient room to turn it round. with the legs on. What do you think to the above Brian?

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Hi again, just to add, I also am assuming the drip tray is samwiched between the bed and the legs, you will see when you lift the bed, and once the bolts are clear it should just slide off. I wouldn't worry about the concrete too much Chris, looking at the pics, and at the feet on mine, there is not much depth at all, I think he has grouted round it just to stop it moving sideways.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Phil and Chris,

Phil I like that modified plan, it sounds very workable; keeping the weight low down is always best and it stops oscillations from building up. If some strong support, like breeze blocks, are moved in under the load while the legs come off that gives is a safety net for the poor sap grovelling about underneath releasing the bolts!

Instead of using the crane to left each end of the bed in turn to get it out of the door, a good bar with hefty timber fulcrum might be easier. It avoids the hassle of getting the crane out of the doorway while the bed is taking up the space it needs.

Flexing tailstock legs!!!!! Wow, are they not bolted on as well?

I agree with you over the concrete/grout, I too feel sure it will break away with ease. If the leg was buried in it as in a block into a hole in the floor that would be quite different.

Any thougths on floor bolts insde the headstock box?

Just out of curiosity, is the headstock nose bore 3MT? your picture suggests nearer 4. I will be making Chris an alignment gauge from a Landrover 1/2 shaft, but can only go to 2MT for an accurate fit in my Myford and Chris will need to buy a suitable size drill sleeve.

Chris Drill sleeve. I recommend someone like Cromwell Tools or MSC supply or a name like Rohm, it does need to be good quality and I would avoid the cheap imported versions, you have no way of testing it on receipt.

If you weren't so far away I would be pestering to join the party!

Brian

[CHRISTOPHER MILLS 1Participant @christophermills1]

Thanks gentleman, this sounds a very good, comprehensive and cunning plan.

From the general state of the lathe, I would be extremely surprised to find anything stuck up by paint.

I like the idea of not having to lift the lathe higher than it is, but just to lower it. The three point fixing looks sterling.

Where can I buy a rope like yours, Phil, strong enough to lift it?

Chains are horrendously expensive, and look like capable of easily damaging the lathe.

Brian – I believe spindle bearing on the head is 3 Mt – tailstock 2 MT – according to Tony of Lathes.

I would send my chauffeur up to pick you both up, but with the late recession I had to let him go!

Best.

Chris.

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

I would use slings rathey than rope, something like these,

http://www.recovery-equipment.co.uk/strops-slings-lifting-double-single-simplex-duplex/strops-slings-lifting-double-single-simplex-duplex/269/d2000kg-4m-strop.html

They don't stretch or twist like rope does. The rope was for "illustration purposes only) I don't like rope for lifting heavy stuff, much prefer strops/slings, or chains.

Phil.

[CHRISTOPHER MILLS 1Participant @christophermills1]

Brian,

There are no bolts in the plinth end, as the holes are on the outside of the box, and empty. I shall be surprised to find floor bolts in the tailstock end, but on Thursday (my next trip to Totton, Southampton), I hope to prove it.

There is no power at the property, so I will be armed merely with hammer and cold chisel.

Chris.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Chris,

Phil has the 17 inch model, that has the 4MT head socket, I realised that after I posted my comment. Slings are good for this sort of work, as Phil says they don't stretch and being flat they have a broad face in contact with the job..

There was a time when a man of power and influence would have been able to dispatch a 'light' train to Southampton just for his personal use; like yourself I had to dispense with those services so I will have to watch from these distant sidelines!

Bolting of feet at the tailstock end would have been a bad idea I think. The design choice would have been to install the lathe using the plinth as the primary location. The tailstock legs would act as props, packed up as needed to eqiualise the load on them. That way the bed is in a stress free condition, without any twist.

When you finally get this on it's feet in the new location I do recommend bolting the plinth down for two reasons

1. The motor and it's mounting plate will impose a significant off centre toppling load

2 An out of balance job on the lathe could add to that and allow the whole thing to fall over backwards. My Myford lathe motor is hung out on a cantillever and the lathe needs bolting down to stop just that from happening

Brian.

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Hi all (or both?)

Mine is the 13" model Brian, but it isnt the one illustrated on lathes.co.uk, which I assume is the very early model. Mine seems to be exactly like Chris's apart from small details (mine has a lever lock on the tailstock, though this could be a latter addition) The 17" has the motor actually inside the much larger foot. When I first saw mine on ebay, I was convinced it was a 17 untill I actually saw it in the flesh, it was the headstock pillar with the "cupboard door" (access to belt adjusring nut) that fooled me!

Very valid comments about the weight of the motor and mounting hanging off the back, and also out of balance jobs. I will be aware of that when I install mine.

Phil

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