Couple of things at Lidl

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Ady and Martin,

Thanks for your comments about the Charger

… There's nothing better than a forum to collect a wide range of answers.

I now have both extremes

MichaelG.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 17/10/2016 12:52:22:

.I saw an interesting 'intelligent' lead-acid battery charger for about £14 at Lidl.

… Thought it might be a bargain substitute for an OptiMate, but then looked at the instruction leaflet.

Has anyone tried one of these ?

MichaelG.

.

http://www.lidl-service.com/cps/rde/SID-52F99B77-6D378E19/lsp/hs.xsl/product.html?id=189590446&rdeLocaleAttr=en&title=CAR%20BATTERY%20CHARGER%20ULG%203.8%20B1

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 17/10/2016 13:08:33

I have something similar by Gunson. It works well. Totally different though and I have had it for a long time. I think it works by setting sensible float voltages but may pulse. I've used it to maintain car batteries and caravan batteries that aren't going to be used for a long time.

John

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[VicParticipant @vic]

I don't think those HSS drill bits are particularly cheap. The largest sizes seem to be only 6-8-10mm. I've been getting cobalt bits from a local discount shop for a good price. Screwfix have also been selling those Bosch "drill anything" bits at a discount recently.

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 17/10/2016 17:19:24:

Ady and Martin,

Thanks for your comments about the Charger

… There's nothing better than a forum to collect a wide range of answers.

I now have both extremes

MichaelG.

Michael

You can add my positive experience to the tally. I found Martin's description completely matches my own findings. I have two of the Lidl chargers bought a few years apart but both seem to work identically apart from LEDs on one and a voltage indicating LCD on the latest one.

I leave mine permanently connected for weeks at a time and none of the vehicles batteries have suffered.

Ian P

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Well, I'll agree with Martin 100. I bought one a couple years ago and added another the last time they were on offer.

Perhaps not as good as some chargers (but those are much more expensive!). No complaints yet, for me. I have yet to check the current take when on float (they cannot be used with timers for auto top up on a fortnightly basis, per eg). They should avoid gassing, which is generally due either to over-voltage charging or a cell (or more) is weak.

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

I also agree with Martin, Mine has been used wwith no problems for the past 3 years, on both 6V and 12V.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks guys,

Looks like I may have to try one.

MichaelG.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Sorry guys. Applying a continuous DC voltage of 13.2 "trickle charge" will kill a wet lead acid battery unless its in very good condition or the available current is suitably restricted to match the condition and capacity of the battery. If the charge current is low, essentially very little more than the self discharge rate, and the battery large this can take a very long time but die it will.

If the battery is small, probably somewhat abused and not that well made in the first place i.e. typical motorcycle battery it will almost certainly be dead by the fourth winter on such a regime.

If it were that easy 13.2 V trickle fixed voltage would have become the norm ages ago. Fact is the idea has surfaced at least 4 times for the motorcycle market in my lifetime. Had a certain flurry of interest with folk saying how wonderful it is then died a protracted death as the new wunderkids get a bad reputation for killing batteries. Car batteries are bigger and more robust but again it never really got traction except among the inspector meticulous types who really don't need an auto control charger anyway. Despite theoretically knowing better I've tried a couple myself and commiserated with folk who got no benefit from other varieties. About the only guaranteed way to get the expected life out of a vehicle battery is to use the beast regularly.

Static battery charging and condition maintenance is hard because the chemical shift between electrolyte and plate occurs at millions of semi-independent sites which all need top move pretty much in step. If things go wrong at one or more points the whole balance is upset locally and the cancer spreads. Modern vehicle batteries actually like being shaken up as the vehicle drives along with regular hefty bursts of current when the starter engages. Helps shake up the bits going wrong. Fortunately wet lead acid batteries are a lot more tolerant than lithium ion which run close to the ragged edge under charge, especially fast charge, and are totally dependant on effective condition monitoring to avoid going into bomb mode.

Way back when I was a lowly lab rat at RARDE Elektor magazine published a circuit for one of these battery maintaining chargers. Showed it to my boss who was less than impressed and dropped a massive tome on battery types, maintenance and charging thereof on my desk a few days later. Presumably quite authoritative as it was prepared for MoD who have a natural vested interest in keeping batteries up to the mark on stored and rarely used equipment. Lunchtime reading for the next fortnight (ish). For a while I knew more than any sane person should about the care and feeding of batteries but have always retained a healthy respect for just how difficult it is to always keep all batteries in good condition. A few weeks testing thermal batteries left an indelible impression as to how close a battery under high discharge conditions is to a bomb, or at least fire-lighter!

Clive.

Edited By Clive Foster on 17/10/2016 20:14:25

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Don't quite understand your point here Clive, All lead acid batteries have internal resistance put up by the plates and the electrolyte, and MUST be charged at more than 12 volts in order to charge at all. The usual setting for the output of a car alternator is between 13.8 and 14.2 volts, as is the output from a normal battery charger.

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Posted by Ady1 on 17/10/2016 15:09:18:

Have you tried the HSS drllls Andy ?

Cheers H

They're just basic HSS hole drillers and work fine (5mm only so far)

The ones I'm hoping work well are the masonry ones which look well made, a carbide tipped drill can be a ME "lifesaver" at times

MichaelG

Don't forget that most Lidl stuff has a guarantee(up to 3 years) so if it breaks you can at least get your cash back the next time you go shopping

Again thanks for the info

Cheers H

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Harry Wilkes on 17/10/2016 22:48:24:

MichaelG

Don't forget that most Lidl stuff has a guarantee(up to 3 years) so if it breaks you can at least get your cash back the next time you go shopping.

.

Noted, Harry … but that's the least of my concerns regarding this charger.

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't reimburse me for £100 motorcycle battery [or any collateral damage]; especially if I hadn't followed the explicit instructions mentioned earlier

MichaelG.

[quote]

• Before starting the charging or trickle charging procedure on a permanently installed battery in a vehicle, first disconnect the negative terminal connecting cable (black) of the vehicle from the negative terminal of the battery. The negative terminal of the battery is usually connected to the vehicle's chassis.

• Then disconnect the positive terminal connecting cable (red) of the vehicle from the positive terminal of the battery.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 17/10/2016 23:32:46

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

Posted by Clive Foster on 17/10/2016 20:12:44:

Sorry guys. Applying a continuous DC voltage of 13.2 "trickle charge" will kill a wet lead acid battery unless its in very good condition or the available current is suitably restricted to match the condition and capacity of the battery. If the charge current is low, essentially very little more than the self discharge rate, and the battery large this can take a very long time but die it will.

Sealed lead acid batteries do not fare much better. (They are still 'wet' inside). The one's in the attached photo were about a year old, they are from an Uninterruptable Power Supply (UPS) used as a computer back-up and never discharged in anger. The 'trickle' charge is continuous and it was measured at 13.65V which was within the manufacturer's guidelines for 'Standby Use'

Clive is correct about the daily vehicle charge/discharge and shaking routine being healthy for a lead acid battery. Compare this to a typical 'boat' battery which is often left unattended for long periods (over winter) and then fails when asked to perform the next summer.

* Danny M *

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Now, I am no particular expert on Lidl battery chargers but…. a friend of mine runs a security business and system back-up batteries are left on float charge for years on end. They are changed out after 5 years (for the approx 17Ah size) or maybe after 3 years for the much smaller items. They cannot be left until failure or even seriously diminished capacity.

I would think that modern electronics should be able to cope with maintaining a float charge for a good battery. Worn out, damaged, or low quality, batteties are another matter. The Lidl charger should cope with good batteries. Time will tell.

[Martin 100Participant @martin100]

Posted by Clive Foster on 17/10/2016 20:12:44:

Sorry guys. Applying a continuous DC voltage of 13.2 "trickle charge" will kill a wet lead acid battery unless its in very good condition or the available current is suitably restricted to match the condition and capacity of the battery. If the charge current is low, essentially very little more than the self discharge rate, and the battery large this can take a very long time but die it will.

I strongly disagree. A flooded cell lead acid battery typical for many car batteries. trickle charged at 13.2v, or 2.2v per cell in typical UK temperature conditions (assuming 15 deg C) can be tolerated essentially 'forever' it merely offsets the self discharge. Take the same battery to the tropics or the deserts and the situation changes as the voltage required reduces somewhat at about 4mV per cell per deg C

The failures seen in the sealed or recombination cells in UPS batteries and elsewhere have been known about for decades, APC for instance were destroying cells to the extent they boiled dry or swelled to prevent removal from their casings from around 1996, that's two decades of what is deliberate engineering failure.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

So what's the best way of maintaining/charging sealed types, which many people use for battery locos?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

My home made charger follows this routine:

• Charge at C/10 until at 2.55V per cell
• Charge at 2.45V/cell until current drops to C/20
• Trickle charge at 2.25V per cell

I generally take them off charge when the current falls to a consistent zero mA.

The SLA (ex-burglar alarm 3 years service) battery I use for my telescope mount has been though several dozen cycles of partial discharge this last year and a half.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Presumably you have chosen 'C' for your particular battery charger? These bought in chargers have already been set for bulk charge, and standby charge. So only ideal for the battery sizes anticipated/programmed during manufacture?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

C is capacity in amp-hours, so C/10 for a 7 Ah battery is 700mA.

The charger asks for chemistry, number of cells and capacity before starting to charge.

Bought in chargers rarely let you tell them the capacity so they can over-charge smaller batteries.

Neil

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Very wise of you Neil. Lead acid batteries are very good load levellers ideal for cars or applications like that. Wet nickel cadmium was the best for standby use. Our burglar alarm battery failed a few weeks ago. In other words the alarm decided it was no good any more. I'm having a bit of an argument with them. The engineer told me it was the oldest he had ever seen and that they should be replaced every 3 years.

I spent a fair few years working on lead acid batteries so should be able to quote voltage figures easily of the top of my head but unfortunately it isn't as simple as that. A lot of info that has been about is based on batteries form the days when dynamos were fitted on cars and they really needed a sensible slow discharge rate compared with starting loads. That changed when alternators were fitted. All that mattered then was starting loads. Another story. Once alternators were widely fitted it allowed them to more or less do away with the need for topping up. This was basically done by messing with the alloy that makes up the grid that hold the oxide pastes in place. Initially the grids were lead plus 10% antimony. A good alloy for batteries as they were then. The first change was to drop that to 6%. The net effect is usually called raising the hydrogen over potential – the voltage needed to make the battery gas so if charged at the same voltage less water will be lost. Later still alternator voltage were lowered. Even better so these days a battery is unlikely to need topping up at all. They are also using materials other than antimony. If this style of battery is discharged fully at normal lower rates C2 and slower it will show a distinct lack of it compared with if it had been charged to a voltage where it was allowed to gas at low current for a significant period of time. The current needed depends on several factors in the battery itself. As the discharge times get faster and faster the difference gets less. From memory a cranking test might go something like 3 to 500 amps for some mins down to 10.2v at some – degrees C. The battery manufacturers will have put the minimum possible number of plates in to achieve this. At these sorts of current I doubt if it's still possible to get anywhere near fully discharging the oxide in them. The oxide in the plate gets short of sulphuric acid which limits how discharged it can actually get.

So your long term floating voltage needs to be at a level just short of the point where it gasses. One idea of what that is would be is to measure the effective output of a cars alternator when the battery is fully charged. One way of testing a charger with a float facility is to check for water loss and or signs of gassing. Or if some one wants to knock something up alternator output for say 2 hrs a day on a time switch.

Traction batteries are generally made in an entirely different way. The oxides are held in place with what one way or the other are effectively tubes. This also helps keep it place when the batteries are gassing.

They weren't making leisure batteries when I was around them. I'd more than guess that the use the same technology as other but with more oxide and or more acid. Most likely the latter.

I think I saw a comment from MG about disconnecting batteries on float. As they have no idea what may be connected that's hardly surprising. If -ve earth then disconnecting the positive should be ok. It may be possible to get isolators that will attach to one of the batter terminals. That sort of thing has been around in the past.

Need to shake them about? I wouldn't have thought so. There is this thing about dendritic growth through the separators. I've only heard of it in theory relating to crap separators. Acid stratification – osmosis would take care of that – slowly.

John

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[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Ady1 on 17/10/2016 15:22:00:

I had a closer look at those Lidl HSS drills out of interest and the bigger ones have been sharpened quite cleverley so that the point cuts as soon as it starts to turn

The only time I have seen ground tips like this before was when I got some drills from an ex Ferranti chaps estate

Yep, I bought a set today, split point. Ground nicely but not as well as my Brooke ones, but I haven't got a full set of those (they are in my 'best metric set' made up with Dormers, mostly standard point)

Bargain for 3.99 if the temper is OK.

I could do with finding an imperial set to a similar standard.

[j malcolm priceParticipant @jmalcolmprice74576]

will have to buy some

[Adrian GilesParticipant @adriangiles39248]

I have used both Aldi and Lidl chargers in our mower repair workshops, both gave pretty good results. Most of the batteries we were charging were standard 12v lead acid, fitted to ride on mowers, and usually not in particularly good nick. They would certainly pick up most discharged batteries equally well as the Optimate we had before. Several of the American ride-ons now have a small 2 pin socket on the dash or under the bonnet to connect a similar charger for long term trickle maintainance over the winter season.

Edited By Adrian Giles on 25/10/2016 16:17:10

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Adrian Giles on 25/10/2016 16:15:46:

… Several of the American ride-ons now have a small 2 pin socket on the dash or under the bonnet to connect a similar charger for long term trickle maintainance over the winter season.

.

Thanks Adrian … but unfortunately that's the area where I found problems with the [quite specific] instructions from Lidl.

MichaelG.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

My local Lidl has a stand with Varta rechargeables at the moment, a quid a pop at the till if you buy 4 or 8 at a time, AA and AAA types.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Infra-red thermometers for about £12 in Aldi today.

The freezer is at -18.5 but I was bit worried to discover the fridge is at 8.5 so I turned it up a bit.

Neil

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