Copper Boiler, should I make my own or buy one ?

[Phil PParticipant @philp]

The engine in question is quite an old design being the 1½” scale Burrell single crank compound, it was designed by A.J. Every in the 1940’s and then marketed by Dick Simmons up until the 1960’s I believe.

I have managed to obtain a full set of castings, drawings and many other parts such as gears and spokes etc, so all I need is a boiler and some wheel rims.

I am not sure the original boiler design meets current standards, and it is only actually rated at 50 psi working pressure, which is not enough for compounding anyway.

I have yet to collect the parts, but the man I am buying them from is a long time respected model engineer who has done a new drawing for a more up to date boiler.

Until I am in possession of the drawings I am not certain of the barrel diameter, but it will be about 3½” I think.

I have previously built copper boilers for two 3” Burrell road loco’s a 3” Ruston Proctor compound tractor, and a 2” Clayton wagon so am not phased by the prospect of doing it again. These were done nearly twenty years ago so I am a bit out of touch on prices.

My problem is lack of time, I am trying to get some idea on the price for either buying a finished boiler or buying the materials to make my own, I can then decide what to do. I do still have some stock of old Silver Solder, so that might sway my decision a bit.

I have sent out a few e-mails to commercial suppliers asking for a quote, but have yet to get any replies, so do any of you guys have any rough idea on what to expect, I am guessing it will be very similar to a 1½" Allchin.

Thanks

Phil

[Phil PParticipant @philp]

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Going by what the slightly larger 2" Fowler boilers now cost from the likes of Helen at Western Steam you won't get much change out of £1500. If you intend to sell the engine when its done then having a commercial boiler does seem to make them sell better and the prices are usually a bit higher as well.

J

[chris jParticipant @chrisj]

May I ask something related to boilers pls.

What are the rules regarding boilers ?

Do you only have to have them tested to show them in a public place ?

[SteambuffParticipant @steambuff]

Chris,

You are opening a bag of worms here…

If you use the TE at a club or in a public place then it needs to be tested.

In addition no insurance company will touch it unless it is tested. (and certs current)

But it is strongly recommended that you have it tested for your own peace of mind …. how would you feel if it blew in your garden and your child/grandchild or friend/wife/neighbourgh was injured. (You would have no insurance, or if you did it would be invalidated if you could not produce a current/valid hydraulic and steam test cert)

Dave

[chris jParticipant @chrisj]

Thanks Dave.

It wasn't my intention to open the can !!

What you say makes sense and is what I thought.

When you say insurance are there policies for model engineers ?

[DustyParticipant @dusty]

Chris

Your question raises a number of points. If I can answer your last point first, the answer is' No' but (there is always a but) and that is for your own safety(that includes your nearest and dearest) and peace of mind you should always have a boiler tested. Testing is not a one off examination but is ongoing over the life of the boiler. Boilers made by Model Engineers as opposed to professional boiler makers are constructed according to the Northern and Southern Federation of Model Engineering Societies codes of practice. In order to have your Boiler tested it has to be presented to your Club Boiler inspector at various stages during its construction to ensure that it is being constructed according to the code. When completed it is subject to a pressure test of twice its working pressure and then every four years to 1.5 times working pressure. it is also subject to an initial steam test, this is repeated yearly. These test results are recorded on your boiler certificate. God forbid that you had a boiler failure and persons were injured (or worse) and you did not have the boiler certificate then any insurance company would, I fear, not look kindly on you.

How do you get this service? by joining your local Model Engineering Club/society, without membership you will not get your boiler tested and certified, unless you pay a qualified commercial boiler inspector. I hope this helps. Just read the above posts and yes insurance is available the best way is again through a Club.

Edited By Dusty on 03/11/2012 19:30:28

[SteambuffParticipant @steambuff]

Yes there are special policies for model engineer's insurance …. Take a look at Walker Midgley's web site.

**LINK**

I am sure that there are others.

Dave

 

Edited By Steambuff on 03/11/2012 19:37:34

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

I seem, to remember that a 'Tich' boiler is small enough not to need a certificate to be covered by the WM insurance.

Neil

[SteambuffParticipant @steambuff]

Neil

That might be true for the small Titch ….

I insure my loco's with WM, some are 16mm/Inch Narrow Gauge (32mm gauge) and are well under the limit …. but the WM T&C's still state that in the event of a "Boiler related" incident, that if the boiler does not have a boiler cert then the claim will be invalid.

Also a lot of event organsers are now demanding boiler test certs for the smallest of loco's etc

Dave

 

Edited By Steambuff on 03/11/2012 21:55:37

[Phil PParticipant @philp]

Posted by JasonB on 03/11/2012 17:30:20:

Going by what the slightly larger 2" Fowler boilers now cost from the likes of Helen at Western Steam you won't get much change out of £1500. If you intend to sell the engine when its done then having a commercial boiler does seem to make them sell better and the prices are usually a bit higher as well.

J

Hi Jason

You were not far off the mark.

I just had my first quote in at £1100

Looks like I had better get my gas bottle re-filled.

Phil

[FenleyParticipant @fenley]

Hi Phil

I have one of these burrells on my bench at the moment, its an abandoned project I picked up and I like you was concerned whether the boiler was up todays standards.

The original plans are a bit vague if you are going to build your own, there is no mention to include any pads under the cylinder and the fire door mounting frame could do with some blind bushings incorporated during construction.

I emailed a well know supplier for the cost of a boiler but was told they was not familiar with the design and despite sending them a pdf of the plan I never had a response I should have followed it up as it may have gone into their spam filter. Its good to know how much one would cost.

Regards Andy

[Phil PParticipant @philp]

I just had two more responses.

One was to say sorry he was not doing anymore boilers.

The other from one of the larger outfits who said they were "Too Busy" to quote for small boilers.

The first reply from the one asking £1100 was also going to take 5 months to complete.

Phil

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

The 5 months stated is not unusual. The busier makers can have a 12 month lead time, all suppliers will have a lead in time, you have to join the queue in their production schedule. These are all one-off, nobody builds for stock these days. If they are a short quoted time then they are short of work for one reason or another!

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

As KWIL says 5 months is good going, 12 is more usual though I was lucky with the Fowler as Helen run off an extra while making two others so no wait for me.

You also need to bear in mind that its a new design if you go for the revised drawing so will need to get that approved.

Have you tried Western Steam or the guys who were at teh show that do the welded copper boilers Steam Technology Any one else spot the fault on that sectioned vertical boiler they had on their stand, I'd have missed it if it were not for KWIL pointing it out.

J

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