Coping with voltage spikes

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

A 12volt LED question

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

I added a tiny 12v LED to illuminate the oil gauge on an old motorcar. I have tried it and it works wonderfully, until I start the engine. It seems that voltage spikes generated by the ignition system may be the culprit, so is that likely, and what can be done about it?

The system has a big 12v battery and a small dynamo, and the ignition is electronic so the sparks may be 'better' than conventional points systems. The only other symptom which might help is that the warning light for the indicators (flashers) can be seen to flicker at low engine speeds when the flashers are not being used (but only if you look very closely) – this might be caused by the same spikes, but the LED survives.

I am sure that a solution is there – a Zener perhaps – but can you point me towards something that works – thanks

Tim

[Bryan Cedar 1Participant @bryancedar1]

You have not stated what actually happens to the LED when you start the engine.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

I have a WALT led indicator on a 6volt Austin 7. Some times it works and other times it D'ISNEY.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Tim – a bulb ??

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

Nothing happens. It just ceases to produce light. It is not in a position where I can stare into the beam while pressing 'go'. The diode, when removed, looks exactly like a new one – no connection failure, not even anything visibly different about the gismo in the plastic blob.

But I can send a failed one if this would help diagnosis. I have several …

Cheers, Tim

[Brian Sweeting 2Participant @briansweeting2]

At low engine/dynamo revolutions the regulator will be busy switching on and off to balance the battery/load.

Do the lights settle down as the revs come up?

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

A bulb? A BULB? The whole machine is devoted to LEDs instead of those desperately inefficient filament contraptions. And I need to use it at night and 8 amps max is not enough.

Cheers, Tim

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

The simplest is maybe a large capacitor before the current limiting resistor in series with the LED?

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

The rest of the lighting system comprises a range of LEDs, Headlamps sidelamps, rear lamps brake and rear fog and reversing lamps, white, amber, red, all 12v LEDs, and they all seem to last well. Just these tiny little 3mm failures.

Cheers, Tim

Edited By Tim Stevens on 13/08/2020 18:57:25

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

A capacitor across the feed, you mean, (not in series with the feed) ? What capacity, roughly, and electrolytic or not?

Tim

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

Tim

Be patient, i'm sure one of the many electronic buffs on here will provide a solution, you may even have many choices of methods to try.

Emgee

[Maurice TaylorParticipant @mauricetaylor82093]

Have you measured voltage across the led when the engine is running ,it will be more than 12V .Probably the led does not like the higher voltage .Try putting a resistor in series with the led, 470 ohms will do ,see what happens,might need different value series resistor.

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

In your original post you said you had added a '12 Volt LED'.

The 3mm LED you mentioned does not sound like one that incorporates its own limiting resistor or constant current circuit, so have you fitted a limiting resistor externally?

Ian P

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

Are headlamp LEDs legal ?

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Tim, You are going to have to provide more information on the "LED". A single actual LED (I am assuming it is a white LED as different coloured LEDs have different forward voltages.) would have a voltage of between 3.0 and 3.6 volts across it when driven with it's rated current. As you are calling it a 12 volt LED it must contain something to limit the current and it may consist of more than one actual LED. Until we know more about the "LED" we can't work out a possible reason for it failing.

Les.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Couple of possibilities, assuming the LED is the ordinary 12V type with a built in resistor:

• The supply itself is spiky, or
• The LED's unshielded cable runs closely parallel with wiring carrying ignition pulses, and they're coupling.

A regulator/filter should clean up a spiky power supply but it may need a bigger load than a single LED to work properly. I'd try it first.

If no luck, try shielding the indicator cable. (Pickup or microphone cable?) If that doesn't work, maybe a 12V Zener & 0.1uF in parallel with the LED at the dial end.

Dave

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Didn't dynamo volts bob around 16V ? 12V might be the very max the 3mm can take.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 13/08/2020 20:29:29:

Couple of possibilities, assuming the LED is the ordinary 12V type with a built in resistor:

• The supply itself is spiky, or
• The LED's unshielded cable runs closely parallel with wiring carrying ignition pulses, and they're coupling.

A regulator/filter should clean up a spiky power supply but it may need a bigger load than a single LED to work properly. I'd try it first.

If no luck, try shielding the indicator cable. (Pickup or microphone cable?) If that doesn't work, maybe a 12V Zener & 0.1uF in parallel with the LED at the dial end.

Dave

 

"ordinary" LEDs do not have an internal resistor Some do but it's not standard. Can the OP provide a part number or link for the LED they are using and then we can stop guessing!

Edit,
That "regulator/filter" could be anything, even a empty box, there is no specification at all.

Edited By Robert Atkinson 2 on 13/08/2020 21:14:16

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by roy entwistle on 13/08/2020 19:42:29:

Are headlamp LEDs legal ?

OT but LED hedlamps are legal, my car has them.

What is NOT legal is replacing the filament lamp (bulb) in any exterior car light with an LED. The only exception to this is the reversing light. The legal reason for this is car lights and replacable lamps have to meet certain standards and be tested and approved . They are "E" marked to show compliance. There is NO approved standard for LED repalcable lamps. It is possible to have a complete LED light compliant but the LEDs in it are not replaceable.

The practical reason is that LEDs have different optical characteristics to filaments so a reflector and lens desigined for a filament almost certainly won't have the same pattern and brightness with an LED fitted. It might be possible to design a LED replacement lamp that works in one, or some, lights but it is impossible to design one that will work in any because there i so much variation in light optical design. You can get legal LED replacements for sealled beam headlight units because thi is a complete light with optics, not a replacement lamp for a set of optics.

Robert G8RPI.

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

I know the supply is spiky – from the flickering of the flasher LED. I cannot suggest another reason for that LED to flicker.

Now some other responses:

the white LED (from E-… like most of the others) comes fitted with wires with bulges in. I presume these include the necessary resistance. Other similar but coloured LEDs – same 3mm type – are OK so far.

The dynamo is regulated and charges at about 14.2v – the same voltage is applied to all the other bits of the system.

No I have not measured the voltage at the LED, but I have a voltmeter (see above) across the feed to the Charging socket, which is connected to the LED in question through the sidelights switch, so no reason to be higher.

The regulations for headlights specify that for some (not all) vehicles any required lights using filament bulbs must be properly marked. This has caused a huge raft of confusion as it is interpreted by users and dealers as covering LEDs. My view is that LEDs are not filament bulbs. I don't think the matter has come before the courts.

The actual regs covering my vehicle require a headlamp. No more – I have two and they both dip. I invite the court to consider which is safer, your honour …

I will try a capacitor in the feed – as close as possible, or up to 60mm away?

As far as I am able to search, I can find no part number (etc ) for the LED which fails. But I recognise that alternative sources might be better or worse at curing this (minor) problem. So I will see what I can find. The oil gauge is in the original dashboard position, but no provision for lighting it was made back in 1928. Proper oil pressure is now more important as more modern big ends etc are fitted.

Anything else? I will try to help if I can – thanks

Tim

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 13/08/2020 18:56:48:

The rest of the lighting system comprises a range of LEDs, Headlamps sidelamps, rear lamps brake and rear fog and reversing lamps, white, amber, red, all 12v LEDs, and they all seem to last well. Just these tiny little 3mm failures.

Cheers, Tim

Edited By Tim Stevens on 13/08/2020 18:57:25

Ref my earlier posts,

1/ What is the part number / suppler of the 3 mm LEDs ?

2/ What is the vehicleand how old is it ?

Robert G8RPI.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 13/08/2020 20:52:30:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 13/08/2020 20:29:29:

Dave

"ordinary" LEDs do not have an internal resistor Some do but it's not standard. Can the OP provide a part number or link for the LED they are using and then we can stop guessing!

Edit,
That "regulator/filter" could be anything, even a empty box, there is no specification at all.

Couple of reasonable assumptions I feel

• Ordinary 12V LED indicators from Farnell. Commonplace rather than ordinary if you prefer.
• Ye of little faith, the regulator filter might be an empty fraud, but more likely it's a buck mode stabilizer with a few capacitors. They're sold to people having mucky car power bother, usually rear facing cameras.

Dave

[MacolmParticipant @macolm]

Assuming the device consists of an LED with a series current controlling resistor, the capacitor would need to go across the LED only. A capacitor directly across the supply will almost certainly be useless.

If you can manage simple electronic assembly, you could use an ordinary LED, and make a small constant current circuit with a LM317L chip and a single resistor. This could be only slightly bigger than the ballast resistor you have. The Texas Instruments data sheet for the LM317L can be found easily as a free download, and shows a suitable circuit. The LED will then be unaffected by the battery voltage, provided you can keep within the power dissipation of the chip. Likely safe choice of LED current would be less than 10ma.

F

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

Two more answers:

There is no part number – the failing LEDs were purchased on e-bay to a brief specification – 12v narrow beam 3mm white.

The vehicle is a 1928 Lea Francis model P 12/40 coupe-cabriolet. The dynamo is CAV driven at 1.5 wengine speed as original, and the voltage regulator came from a British supplier whose details I have, but not handy at 11.pm – sorry. It has been converted to a two-brush system in place of the original 3-brush which was controlled by the driver when he remembered and turned the dynamo on, or off (ie too much or not enough). If this information really helps to diagnose the problem do please let me know how.

Tim

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