condensation

[Stephen FollowsParticipant @stephenfollows82099]

My workshop gets very cold in winter so when I heat it during use anything metal gets wet through condensation. It would cost a small fortune to keep it heated 24/7 so i'm thinking of building a heated cupboard for precision tools.

Has anyone tried this? I figure a small thermostatically controlled heater would be off most of the time the cupboard was shut.

[Stephen FollowsParticipant @stephenfollows82099]

[TrisParticipant @tris]

Little 30w tube heaters are ideal, think you may want a little ventilation top and bottom to let moist air out.

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

The drawings in our design department (old days when we had drawing boards) would go mouldy in winter and we installed a small strip heater at the bottom of the storage cabinet. It only drew about 50 watts of power but stopped the mould.

Even an incandescent light bulb should be enough to keep your cupboard warm. ( 2 bulbs in series will produce heat but not as much light)

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Old refrigerators make excellent insulated and sealed storage cabinets in a wet environment.

[Stephen FollowsParticipant @stephenfollows82099]

Like the light bulb idea but don't think incandescent lamps are sold now….

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by Stephen Follows on 12/04/2022 23:06:08:

Like the light bulb idea but don't think incandescent lamps are sold now….

They still are, but so are vivarium and home brewing heaters, both of which often

have the advantage of built in thermostats.

Bill

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

While a small heated store may be needed, can you not insulate your workshop? Incandescent light bulbs are not to be recommended – high voltage, they can fail. Proper, safer heaters would be far better.

Are you using open fuel-burning heating while you are in the workshop?

Can the workshop be draught-proofed – and run a desiccant dehumidifier to lower the humidity on a regular basis?

Reducing the humidity and maintaining the workshop above zero Celsius most certainly helps protect machinery.

I’m now using one of the chinese diesel air-heaters, when needed, to warm my workshop when I am in residence. Generally cheaper than electric heating and does not produce any unwanted moisture.

[AdrianRParticipant @adrianr18614]

Instead of heating the cupboard, you could dehumidify it with something like this https://www.appliancesdirect.co.uk/p/md100/amcor-md100-dehumidifier

Just remember you will need to make the cupboard air and moisture tight. So plastic lined and seals on the door.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, in my old job of many years, we used to have an old small steel electrical cabinet with shelves made from cable tray, which had a one hundred watt bulb in the bottom, this was used to keep welding electrodes dry. OK, we didn't have to pay the electric bill, but the cost wasn't even peanuts for the company with all the machinery used in the factories and I was once told they used four megger watt hours a day of electric 24/7. Never had any damp issues with the welding electrodes.

Regards Nick.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by Stephen Follows on 12/04/2022 23:06:08:

Like the light bulb idea but don't think incandescent lamps are sold now….

Google Rough Service light bulbs and pick what you want.

regards Martin

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

I am using Android, have got an app called Barometer. Just checked and it's saying it's 92.9% humidity outside. Nearly an hour ago it was 98. something. This gives me a rough idea how 'bad' the damp atmosphere is outside, down here on the South coast, having had a fog/mist weather forecast this morning. At least it's giving an idea of surroundings so if a shed/ garage being used as a workshop, you have an idea of how much it's being affected by conditions outside. I have gentle heat on 24/7 most of the year. 4 off, 60W bulbs in brass battenholders, connected in series encased in a 3-ply box produce low light but importantly, low wattage heat. Wiring is protected against possible shock risk. Workshop entry routine, switch off heaters, switch off lights. Still use stock of new bulbs for reading indoors but when they get a bit tired, pension them off as workshop heaters. I believe that total wattage is around 15, so X 168/wk = just over 2.5 units a week, x 25p (+ VAT, =30 p) up to recently, =75p. Leccy now jumped to 45 p + (VAT = 54p), total now £1.35/wk. Still very low compared with all else that's going on. That's for one of my mills, under plastic shroud. Tubular heater back of myford drip tray, on thermost. Just large plastic bags over Dore-Westbury mill and Fobco drill and workbenches. Enough heat escapes to warm whole 10 X 8' wooden shed which is heavily insulated.

Edited By DMB on 13/04/2022 09:26:15

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

The quick solution, today, is an old cotton sheet over the machine then a blanket over that. (the sheet keeps the fluff off the oil). You must have a few old incandescent bulbs around you can swap for LEDs eg in the attic and cellar to put under the machine, This provides a microclimate although obviously not sealed it is a quick helper improvement. Don't use plastic sheet and cotton/wool is a lot better than man made.

Often in abandoned workshops and even in houses one sees metal items that have the top surface rusty and the undersides better. This is because dew forms even inside at a tiny level and falls down, maybe from the coldest air near the ceiling that has radiated its heat into the night sky. This can happen when the conditions are not such that a cold machine attracts the condensation onto all its surfaces. So cover metal with a cloth whenever possible.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Insulate the workshop, it’s amazing what a difference it makes, I have a small dehumidifier working at night on economy seven tariff and a small oil filled radiator on a very low setting, solves the problem. Dave W

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

If you get condensation when you start to heat the space, it is likely that the heating process produces damp air. For instance, a paraffin heater – simply because burning anything with hydrogen combined in it produces water vapour.

If you use electric heating, you won't get this problem – but you could still get condensation if, for example, you return to the garage after a frost (which cools everything down) and the day is warm (so the air that comes in with you can include a lot of moisture).

Removing the moisture using a de-humidifier will help in both cases – and delivers de-ionised water for all sorts of useful jobs (topping up car radiators, lead-acid batteries, etc).

Regards, Tim

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 13/04/2022 09:06:39:

Posted by Stephen Follows on 12/04/2022 23:06:08:

Like the light bulb idea but don't think incandescent lamps are sold now….

Google Rough Service light bulbs and pick what you want.

regards Martin

Reasons for not misusing incandescent light bulbs as heaters:

• Shock and Fire Hazard
• Short filament life due to overheating in an enclosed space
• Bakelite bulb holders go brittle due to overheating
• No temperature control, wasting electricity, frying insulation, cooking anything heat sensitive in the cupboard, and maybe starting a fire.
• Glass Bulb easily broken
• Light spilling out can be a nuisance

Although these problems can be partly fixed with a guard, ceramic holder, thermal cut-out, and silicon wiring, it all costs time and money. And at the end, light-bulbs aren't designed to run hot – they normally have plenty of ventilation. Better, I suggest, to cough up the precious and buy a Tubular Heater. One with a thermostat would save electricity. You can get small ones intended to warm equipment enclosures rather than airing cupboards, but I don't know of a supplier.

Dave

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

My workshop is a draughty cold single skin garage with absolutely no insulation, and depending on the wind and rain, can leak!

I use some self regulating heaters from RS Components, in my case Part No. 360-4059.

These are mounted, two on the underside of the lathe, and one on a large piece of thisk ali sheet and wedged in the bottom of the base of the milling machine. I also use a cover, not sure of the material other than it's woven, and a plastic sheet on top. This effectively keeps the two machines that bit slightly warmer than the ambient. Hey presto, no rust.

The downside is that although mine are rated at 10W, in fact they draw the equivalent of 19W: this appears to be correct according to the spec., hence the running costs may now-a-days be a bit two much. (As far as I am concerned, since it saves the lathe and milling machine from rusting, it's worth it, but your opinion may differ.)

Cheers,

Peter G. Shaw

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

But, SoD – the OP says he uses brass bulb holders, and four bulbs in series. So many of your concerns do not apply here, surely?

Tim

[Stephen FollowsParticipant @stephenfollows82099]

The workshop is draught proof but built of heavy duty blocks. Another project this year is to clad the outside with treated shiplap, there goes £1000 +.

I have a dehumidifier but it stops working below 5 degrees. I could get a desiccant type but the running cost would be too high.

I heat with a fan heater when I'm using the shop. I used to use a convector with a thermostat permanently on but the electricity use was far too high. The cold itself isn't a great problem but when I do heat the shop even small metal things are so cold that they get wet through condensate pretty rapidly. I've lost a digital caliper set through the electronics getting wet.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Would I be right in thinking that heating only needs to exceed the dew point or a de humidifier only needs to dry air to avoid condensation at dew point temperature? Dew point sensors seem to be rather a lot of money but the calculation seems to only need to know the temperature and humidity so maybe an arduino could do the calculation and control equipment to keep the workshop safe. The worst situation seems to be a cold spell followed by a warm wind coming in, my workshop could look like it had been hosed in that situation.
Mike

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by AdrianR on 13/04/2022 07:38:36:

Instead of heating the cupboard, you could dehumidify it with something like this https://www.appliancesdirect.co.uk/p/md100/amcor-md100-dehumidifier

Just remember you will need to make the cupboard air and moisture tight. So plastic lined and seals on the door.

Silica gel will typically only reduce the humidity to 20%, at best(and over time), so the cupboard will still need to be maintained above dew point.

Posted by Tim Stevens on 13/04/2022 10:36:52:

But, SoD – the OP says he uses brass bulb holders, and four bulbs in series. So many of your concerns do not apply here, surely?

Tim

Did he? I used to use fluorescents under honey buckets to warm them – they were low wattage, but Watts are Watts – and mine were cumulative as the lamps were in parallel connection.🙂 While less likely to fuse at reduced wattage (lamps in seies) if one fails the whole string fails.🙂

—————-

I don’t care how low the humidity might be, if the interior drops below freezing point, any/most remaining moisture in the air will likely/possibly condense – dehumidified or not – somewhere.

I’m like Dave, my (desiccant) dehumidifier runs for a couple hours during the night on E7. The dehumidifier adds about 0.75kWh of heat over those two hours. If extremely cold weather I may leave two dehumidifiers running – or if I am away they run for an hour apiece, just in case one gives trouble – or the water collection receptacle fills up.🙂

SOD is right on most of his points. Even with my efficient fluorescents, the light was absorbed inside the box and converted to thermal energy. I’ll add that the heater must be installed low down, because heat rises, so needs protection,

As per Peter, above, I am happy to spend the money on protecting my machines and all the other items in my workshop – but I installed good insulation and efficient draught-proofing in order to reduce my day-to-day heating costs. It is so efficient that in the summer, I often have to keep my workshop door closed to avoid over-heating!

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

Like the OP, my garage AKA workshop suffers from damp in the winter. My solution for the measuring kit was to treat myself to a cabinet (See photo below) to store it all. The cabinet itself is kept in the house.

 

Other stuff like MT chucks, lathe chucks, milling cutters etc are stored in the workshop in plastic food boxes with sealable lids. I also use several protective products from Arc Euro (other substances and suppliers are available). These are used both in the boxes and on the machinery, where any horizontal surface attracts condensation.

Edited By Anthony Knights on 13/04/2022 13:42:10

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Small hardware shops still stock old type bulbs.

My box, see above, has one side open with the edges about an inch above the tops of the bulbs, to protect them from breakage. Bottom end also recessed to avoid exposure of the (insulated) wiring arrangement.

When bulb supply runs out, may well get small heater. They're made for pianos, would you believe? About (15W?) Aquarium s, Vivarium s, plants as in greenhouses, soil heaters. Just need to look around to gain knowledge of different designs and wattages.

Still use, on occasional loft visits, huge 150W lamp, spreads a lot of light around for short while in use. When it busts, I'll find something else. Case of using up what I have.

[Nick Chase 1Participant @nickchase1]

as i understand it , relative humidity is related to air temperature

when its warm the air can hold a lot of water vapour, so 90% humidity might hold a cup full in a sq meter of air

when its cold the air cant hold so much so then 90% humidity might only mean a thimble full in a sq meter

so you could try opening the doors in the morning when the air outside is cold and only contains a little bit of moisture and then you replace out the warmer air inside and the extra water it holds with the dryer cold air

that way you will gradually dehumidify the workshop for free?

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

that way you will gradually dehumidify the workshop for free?

’Fraid you are under an illusion on that one. Won’t work. No such thing as a ‘free lunch’. It can be quite cold and very foggy.

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