Complete Beginner Requiring Lathe Info

[Corey Lucas-DiversParticipant @coreylucas-divers20633]

Hello everyone, this is my first post. I'm not sure about forum etiquette requirements here, but I didn't see a place for introductions, so I thought I'd just go ahead and ask questions.

I don't really have any machining experience, but am interested in acquiring a lathe not necessarily for model making straight away, more just to learn how to operate a lathe and perform various cuts and threading in various metals. I only intend to work with small things, so I wouldn't require a big lathe in terms of size, but I would like to able to work with a range of materials, so I would want enough power to use harder, more difficult metals.

So being a complete novice with the thought of doing some machining, a lathe seemed like the most versatile machine to start building a workshop, but I have no idea about anything really. What sort of specs to look for, whether I should enroll on courses or whether I would be able to get by with reading and online resources. What tools I would need to perform a range of functions with the lathe. What materials would be best to use to practice and gain experience. What accessories I might need, different chucks, faceplate, steadies, etc.

Obviously I've been doing some reading, but being from the UK, this forum seemed to be the best place that I have found where I may be able to get the answers I'm looking for. Sorry, if the information I need is already here in a similar thread, I did have a look, but didn't really find anything specific.

Any help or guidance would be greatly appreciated or being pointed in the right direction to get the information I need. Thanks in advance.

[Corey Lucas-DiversParticipant @coreylucas-divers20633]

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Corey, welcome to the forum, your question has been asked many times in different ways. Have you tried typing "What lathe" in the Google search box on the home page, this will show many of the questions that have been asked here.

If you have had no experience with using a lathe, it may well pay to seek some kind of instruction before buying one. Lathes are like many other things, in that what will suit you won't suit others. One of the best ways of getting ideas is to go and have a look at them in a showroom or at one or two of the many model engineering exhibitions dring the year and ask the various companies about what they sell.

You could always buy a cheap socond hand one off ebay or somewhere similar which you won't be to afraid to damage during your learning curve, but it is far better to get some practical training first.

Regards Nick.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Before you buy a lathe you need a shed, a bench and a vice, then a bench drill, and perhaps a grinder. You can then do some work filing bits of metal to a precise shape. If you find this too boring to maintain your interest you might not get much value out of a lathe because although a lathe is useful 80% of any metalwork project doesn't use it.

Meanwhile get some books. eg The amateur's workshop by Ian Bradley or The Amateur's Lathe by Sparey.

[Derek DroverParticipant @derekdrover32802]

Perhaps it might be worth while looking to see if there are any model engineering clubs in your area. Go along and have a chat and see what sort of things others are into making.. not everyone makes locomotives/traction engines. You can also get a good idea on what people like/dislike on any particular machine.. also advice on good tuition material. Some clubs have quite good libraries too.

I'd suggest research carefully on equipment. Some things may look like a bargain, but in the long run are not true value for money.. some things you pay a premium for the brand name when there are alternatives of equal measure.

Also.. understand that this is not a cheap pastime.. tooling and material cost money.. which I'm sure the "better half" would much rather invest in handbags !!!!!!!!!!!!

del.

[Anonymous]

Corey: First, welcome to the forum. Second it is not necessary to spend hours filing bits of metal to shape before using a lathe, although a bench, vice and grinder will be useful. Third, there are no definitive answers to some of your questions, as everyone has different requirements.

My advice would be to buy a lathe, any lathe, and get started. Certainly reading will give you an appreciation of what is needed, and some idea of tool shapes and speeds and feeds, but in the end there is no substitute for actually trying it. Joining a club, or finding a local mentor, will certainly help speed up the learning curve, but you also have to learn by making mistakes. Machining is not an exact process, so while rules are useful they're not the whole story.

Ask lots of questions; there are no dumb questions, just dumb answers.

Regards,

Andrew

[SteambuffParticipant @steambuff]

Corey,

Important question … What is your budget for the lathe and essential tooling?

Take a look at the ArcEuroTrade web site to give you some idea of costs for a reasonable chinese lathe, if you are based in the UK, give them a ring .. they will answer any questions you may have and advise you. (They also offer excellent pre-post sales support)

Dave

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Hi Corey

Read lots, search out your local Model Engineering Club and ask lots of questions. Be aware that buying the lathe is only a small part of what you need so don't blow all your cash on a new machine without any tooling! Training is VERY hard to come by these days – the SMEE do run some courses in London and, if you are near to them, so do Axminster power Tools see HERE

Take some time over your choice – the anticipation is always enjoyable- and you will reach a conclusion in time.

Good luck

Norman

[Corey Lucas-DiversParticipant @coreylucas-divers20633]

Thank you all for your input. I appreciate that it is probably difficult to make specific recommendations with regards to machines not knowing what my requirements are or will be in the future. Because my knowledge is so limited, my concern was not wanting to make a poor investment by either buying a machine that did not have the power to machine SS or Titanium, for example, or buying a machine that uses cheap components and is prone to breaking or requiring constant servicing or buying a machine that doesn't have sufficient accessories available for it. I've no idea what is or isn't interchangeable from one manufacturers lathe to another.

In terms of a shed, I will also need to buy one, I really am starting from scratch. I do at least have a place to put the shed, albeit not as large a space as I would like. I was expecting to have to get a bench, tool chests, a lathe stand or at least something to stand the lathe on. I expect to get a grinder at some, but I read that you don't have to shape your own tools if you use indexable stuff. Likewise I would probably want to get a pillar drill, mill etc. but to begin with I just want to be able to size round bar, bore and cut thread accuratly, as well as parting cleanly, being able to cut small grooves and chamfers, etc. I am unlikely to use anything much above 25mm/1" round bar to begin with.

I have seen that you can get milling attachments for some lathe, is that a good route to go, if you have limited space or is it advisable to get a separate machine? I also don't know if I am better off buying something new, which mostly seem to be from China, which worries me or buying something 2nd hand like an old Myford, which also worries me. I would prefer to have features like digital displays in terms to ease of set up and use, but I would prefer to have robust build quality and rigidity, which is probably more associated with an old Myford.

Is there a good site that has reviews of machines that I can read?

[Keith LongParticipant @keithlong89920]

The almost definitive site for reviews of lathes is – http://www.lathes.co.uk – but a word of caution there, most of the machines on that site are by now "old" machines – some of them are from the 1850's or thereabouts. However you will find a lot of the machines that folk on here use, as we don't all use modern lathes by any means, and we definitely don't all use Myfords. What you will find on there is a good description of a lot of the machines often with the good and bad points mentioned. It will also give you an insight into the history of the various makes such as Boxford and Myford that you well might consider buying if you go the second hand route. The information will be of great help when you see a machine advertised as you'll be better able to judge it's age and whether it's likely to have seen service in a light machining environment or if it has been worked to death in a more industrial application.

Good luck, I think you'll find the hunt for your machine as fascinating, rewarding – and as frustrating – as actually using the machine when you get it.

Keith

[Corey Lucas-DiversParticipant @coreylucas-divers20633]

Thanks Keith, it looks like I'm off to do a lot more reading. My concern with buying an older machine is that with my lack of knowledge/experience, I won't really know what I'm getting in terms of how much time or money will need to be spent to make it fully operational as well as things like availability of parts, which I believe is generally for Myford, but have know idea for other makes. Whether or not I will need to make a lot of changes to allow for metric cutting, threads, etc. It's frustrating that you don't seem to able to buy anything with the build quality of these older machines, brand new with modern features like digital displays, etc. I assume the older machines can have digital readouts and other modern tech type things retro fitted.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Hi Corey

|" I assume the older machines can have digital readouts and other modern tech type things retro fitted."

Yep they certainly can but digital displays are a " nice to have" rather than a "must have". ( After about 35 years I'm still trying to persuade myself that I NEED one – I know how good they are as I had them on my machines at work – but there is always some other, more important call, on my funds!)

It's a far easier call to make with a milling machine where a DRO really helps.

I suggest that, once you have identified a machine ( or a number of machine types) that you are interested in, you spend your hard earned on the best example that you can find. All the accessories can be added later as you come across them or if you find a particular need. This is another case for finding someone knowledgeable to assist you – and making contact with your local model engineering club is likely to be the best way to do this.

If you have no knowledge or experience of lathes then the secondhand market can be a bit of a minefield – even quite rough machines can be "scrubbed up" to look attractive.

Norman

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Hi Corey,

Welcome aboard. I always wanted to do model engineering, and in 1999 I cgot hold of a few issues of ME and then convinced my wife I had enough cash to buy a small lathe (I got a customer returned mini lathe from Machine Mart at a silly low price – it turns out there was nothing wrong with it). Before I could use it, by coincidence my Dad let me have a big pile of old Model Engineer magazines, mostly from the 40s and 50s and I went on holiday. I already had a small workshop (about 5' by 7'!)

That week of reading helped no end, and I wudl suggest you do the same, read (you can use the net these days) and try and get to a model engineering exhibition to see the sorts of models people make. They range from the tiny to the huge. Try and decide what you would really like to achieve – some people start with the lifetime ambition project and succeed. Most of us start simple. I made a very strange hombrew stationery steam engine, then decided top build a Stuart 10V as the classic 'beginner's first model'. It is actually a damn good introduction to model engineering, and involves a range of skills but most of the work is done on the lathe.

Buy tools and accessories as you need them – at least they get used once. If you buy cheap, be prepared to work around shortcomings or make adjustments or even face the odd disappointment. If you spend a lot you will get stuff that usually does things very well, but will still be diappointed from time to time. If you enjoy fiddling and modifying, then go for things that you won't feel guilty about chopping about. I've since spent a fair bit of money and a lot of time on my mini lathe and it's now a very satisfying and flexible machine to use (within its capacity).

The main thing is to have fun, and most of us enjoy the 'problem solving' aspects of the hobby, whatever we make or whatever standard we work to. Websites like this one mean that, unlike Sudoko, there is always someone who can help when the problem is that bit too hard to solve!

Finally, this is a hobby with no hard boundaries or limits, you can tackle any subject you like using anything from hand tools to computer controlled systems, but the basic satisfaction of creating working mechanisms from the same or similar materials as the originals is shared by all.

Enjoy!

Neil

[Corey Lucas-DiversParticipant @coreylucas-divers20633]

Thank you for the additional input. Steambuff asked about budget and I'm not entirely sure. I don't want to spend more than I need to obviously, but I don't want to buy something that Is not capable of doing what I want. My emphasis would be on the quality and accuracy of the end product I could create. I appreciate that much of the quality would come down to skill and experience, but I understand that the structural rigidity of the machine would play a large part as well. Space is more my limiting facot, however, I'm not looking to anything big, but again, it will be in a shed and I suspect large machinery would be an issue for the floor, although I guess that could easily be strengthened.

Stub, you mentioned a scary term for me, "hand tools", the reason I am keen on the idea of DRO is I don't consider myself to be great with my hands and my eyesight is also not great, so I would want to be able to rely on knowledge more than skill. In terms of acquiring, storing and using knowledge I am not so useless. For example, I was never good at woodwork, then I spent a long time watching New Yankee Workshop and learned that, if I had the right tools, and the knowledge of which tool to use and how to set them up, then the skill was not so much of an issue. I realise you could still call the knowledge a skill, but it's just my way of differentiating between hand skill and brain skill.

I have read elsewhere that I would need a 750watt motor to be able to machine SS well, but most mini lathes seem to have less power than that, hence looking for something larger. Power requirements are also a concern. I have fitted waterproof sockets outside the house, but they are just spurs of my normal socket ring main, so I am not sure they would have the capacity to run anything huge for long periods. I could get a sparky in to add a thicker cable if needed, but I would prefer to keep costs as low as is reasonable to get what I want. I'm not really sure what capacity would be needed, but I'm definitely expecting to stay single phase.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Hi Corey,

Welcome to the forum.

In summary, you say the following:

— You are unlikely to use anything much above 25mm/1" round bar to begin with

— Lathe to be capable of turning SS or Titanium

— You are considering indexable tooling

— You will have a small shed

— You want a lathe with DROs

— You have no experience

— Considering new or old

— Lathe mill combination

My comments are based on seeing many beginners at ARC. Steambuff suggested you can ring and ask us (thanks for the plug Dave).

1. If you call us, the first thing we will ask you is what you are intending to do with the lathe – i.e. 'make'. To this, so far you have no answer. Without the answer to this question, it is difficult for anyone to really guide you.

2. The best advise on here is for you to join a club, and/or get to know someone who can guide/help you hands-on. Where a bouts are you in the country?. For a seller, the issue is a little bit like buying a car. You can buy a car from a showroom but the car dealer cannot show you how to drive it. So, a seller can sell you a machine, but they cannot show you how to use it, in terms of lathe work principals.

3. Also equally good advice for buying a book and doing a course, be it at Axminster or SMEE. There are also some really good free places/links on-line to lathe work. I am sure that someone here can guide you to them.

4. Lathes fitted with DROs are usually bigger than what is on offer at ARC. Current new offerings for this size machines come from Warco, Axminster, Chester, most with interchangeable parts, but they may/may not supply said parts for interchangeable competitor machine use. For used machines, there are plenty available, but again, in all cases, it helps to be guided by an experienced lathe user. For new machines – Chinese origin, in our opinion, there will be an element of preparing or setting up a machine, depending on how the said machine has been assembled at the factory. In most cases, you can use the machine straight away, learn to make swarf – which is also an art!. Once the machine has settled in its environment and you are used to the machine, then you can make adjustments to the lathe, one step at a time, to meet your specific requirements. Beside this forum, there are plenty of forums dedicated to specific machines where you can get advice.

5. If you choose a lathe with DROs – which will be larger than what ARC offers, then, you will need a shed big enough to accommodate it, along with all the other equipment suggested here.

Continued…

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

6. You talk about turning SS or Titanium, making grooves, screw cutting, using indexable tools. To be honest, based on our experience with beginners, you will end up in a hole, be disappointed and loose interest if you go down this path, without any training, unless you have strong willpower to learn without pointing your figure at others when you make a mistake because of your lack of knowledge (sometimes such beginners raise 'the not fit for purpose' card with us). Majority of beginners will easily break indexable tips, without formal training, because of incorrect use of tips, feed rate and speed. Screw cutting is also something which needs to be learned if using a lathe tool, and a little easier if using a die in a die stock. If using a lathe tool, metric lathe for true metric threads, and imperial lathe for true imperial threads. There are lathes which can do both – using certain combinations of gears, but the key principal is as I have suggested.

7. After you have purchased a lathe, you will need some lathe tool bits, HSS or indexable, tailstock chuck and arbor, parting off tool and blade, your own bar stock to turn, some drill bits and off you go. There after, provided you haven't given up in the first three to six months, you will add to this other tools as you feel the need, probably a revolving centre, face plate with faceplate clamping set, and/or a four jaw independent and/or self centring chuck. Three to six months later, maybe a fixed/travel steady and/or a vertical milling attachment. If you are going to work with hard materials, you may/may not need/use a coolant/coolant system. You may also want taps/dies/die stocks, and the list goes on. So, within six months to a year after buying the lathe, you will have spent nearly as much on tooling as you spent on the lathe, depending on what you intend to do with it.

At the end of the day, please also remember, you get what you pay for. This is a hobby, and hobby prices are cheap, which in turn means that you may have to do some work yourself to any Chinese lathe you buy, to make it meet your specific end needs. In the old days, you had a machine tool fitter to come and make adjustments to a machine before it was commissioned. Such skills are still available to those willing to pay the price, which is outside the scope of a hobby user. Forums such as this and forums dedicated to specific machines are there to help. If you are expecting high quality brilliance at a hobby market price, this will not happen.

I am aware that there are people here who will disagree with me, but this is my point of view.

Finally, in my opinion, a lathe mill combination is a bad idea. Again, this is my opinion, and for this reason, we do not sell such combinations. However, if you have limited space, I suppose this is something you have to consider.

Ketan at ARC.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

That, Ketan, is a pretty darned good posting!

Corey – I advise that you read it carefully. I think there is no better hobby than model engineering and, with the resource of a well equipped workshop, there are few tasks that are impossible. Ketan really puts his finger on the crucial point though – first decide just what you are going to make. If you have no knowledge then, whilst it is possible to be very successful, it will be a steep learning curve. It will cost a great deal of cash to get set up – all worth while I would say – but all too easy to become disheartened if you don't progress. I would also venture to say that, although your previous ventures into hand work have not been too successful, you will still need to develop some skills in this area. Don't be disheartened though – maybe think through just what your objective is in having a lathe and workshop.

Norman

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Just bear in mind you can buy one of these: NEW WORLD RANGE and it won't make you able to cook, and a professional chef will be able to make you a fine meal over a disposable barbecue.

Knowledge can help you work around limitations just as much as skill – for example knowing there are no essential applications for titanium in model engineering (not even model turbojets or clock pallets) and that you can buy free-cutting stainless steel that will give a decent finish with HSS tools on even the most basic lathe, if it is reasonably well set up.

Like you, I am not 'great with my hands' and I combine extreme short sight with a near total lack of accomodation. My secret model engineering ambition wasn't a Gold Medal, or even a Commended Certificate – but to my amazement I achieved it this year, and it only took 14 years! What's next – to the Moon?

Neil

Edited By Stub Mandrel on 05/10/2013 21:16:21

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

As to ss with 750 W.
Sorry need to tell my sl (90 odd) that. Ok removal rates are low but its not a hard and fast rule..there is a rule about how many cubic inches (or cc ) per minute per horse power

Anyway..as to quality of result. .two things sum this up.
Finish..how smooth is the machined part..

And dimensional conformance..
This last takes in
Is it parallel?
Is it 15.010 mm when I want it to be 15.000 ( other diameters are avaliable ) ?

Then there’s threading..
Depends on how much you need to do but yes screw cutting is important. .this leads to power feed…this will help with finish

And parting off…well that apears to be a challenge of its own. .
I sympathise with “buy right buy once”..but…
Anyway back to finish..
Metal and heft seem to be critical the rigidity of your lathe and rigidity is the key it all..finish , parallel , and parting off.

. best of luck in your search..
,

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Neil..shortsighted. .no accommodation. ..
Hear you.
-13D prescription
So taken me glasses off is like VERY strong readers..but cant see anything out of 100mm away. .varifocals -13 to +4..great but the zones in all thw wrong places..
Whats your solution?
..bugger getting old..but beats the alternative

[Corey Lucas-DiversParticipant @coreylucas-divers20633]

Thanks again for the incite everyone is offering. In terms of what I want to make, the thing that got me interested in the idea of lathe work is nothing to do with model engineering. About a year I switched from smoking to tobacco to using electronic cigarette and through that year have moved from using shop bought items to using custom built mechanical devices. These are very simple things in terms of built and components, but there are very few about and the choice is very limited. I was hoping that rather than always be hunting for things I could possibly make things for myself. If you do a google image search for SS drip tip, you will see the sort of thing I was planning to start practising with. A search for Mechanical Mod will show you something that I would like to move onto with more experience, but obviously as my skill increases I would want to move on to try other things, which is the part where I am unsure what I may want to make.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Corey

OH!

N

Edited By NJH on 05/10/2013 23:12:56

[Corey Lucas-DiversParticipant @coreylucas-divers20633]

I'm not entirely sure how to take "OH!"

Do you not think the drip tips would be a good thing for a beginner to practise with. It seems like they would be quite simple to me, before I move on to more varied things that require a greater range of skills. As I said the electronic cigarettes were just the catalyst that piqued my interest in machining, I'm not really sure where it might take me.

When I saw this forum, I was amazed at some of the skill and creativity and the diversity of things that can be created in a home/hobbyist environment, but I'm open to suggestions. If there are better ways to practise, I just want to learn.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Funny enough I was thinking last night that it was not models you wanted to make, though I thought it was body piercing you were into.

The straighter ones would not be difficult to reproduce, the curved ones are probably better suited to CNC or a copy lathe if you wanted to make a lot but could be done with some hand finishing in the lathe

 

J

Edited By JasonB on 06/10/2013 08:10:36

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

Hi Corey,

One aspect that needs to be addressed is access to your shed or where ever you wish to store your lathe .
If you have plenty of room , concrete driveway and no steps a larger lathe is no problem but if you have restricted access getting 1/2 a ton of lathe through there can be difficult .
You may have an area that you could set up a small lathe and pillar drill on a movable bench that will allow you to have a go at machining before committing to building a shed .

The components you are looking at are not very large so even a C3 MINI LATHE would accommodate these and you can get a vertical slide to allow the lathe to be set up for milling although not with as much capacity as even an X2 Mill.

Another aspect you may wish to consider is whether you need to cut metric and imperial threads as some machines accommodate this and some do not ,one of my lathes has a Norton box fitted and cuts both but many machines are set for either metric or imperial only – they can be modified but that's another story !

New or second hand ?

I would steer you away from second hand as you have stated you have little or no experience with lathes and you really need to know what your looking at as there is a lot of equipment that is mutton dressed up as lamb if you know what I mean.

Digital readout – You can retrofit a lathe with a DRO but for a beginner in would not recommend them as once you get used to the dials they are easy to use and if you have an eyesight issue a cheap magnifying glass can be kept handy to read the dials.

Cutting tools – I would start you out with tool steel because they are cheaper to replace or repair if you damage them and you will ! plus there will be times that you need to make a tool for a certain job that an indexible tool can't do so you may as well learn how to grind tool steel bits up front .
I would stay away from the Dickson type tool holders and mount the cutting tool in the Tool post using shims to set the height correctly as this keeps overhang to a minimum .
If down the track you are still enjoying your time at the lathe you could buy or make an adjustable toolpost and there are a few designs but the unit made by Neil Wyatt and featured in Model Engineers Workshop is one of the better ones going around .
This makes setting your cutting tools at centre height a breeze !

Gaining the required knowledge – there are many books ,DVD'S , Youtube vids etc around and I can recommend a few because I have either read them or seen them and the usual disclaimer applies .

Workshop practice series : there are heaps of them and I recommend them all especially those by Harold Hall as he along with Stan Bray have published books dealing directly with the lathe and how to use it .

Model engineering a foundation course by Peter Wright – has a good coverage of many processes of metalworking in general.

Swarfrat enter[prises : I have watched all of the DVD series from this producer and even though the postage was a killer I found these presentations to be well made , informative and entertaining .

Youtube : tubal cain ( aka mr pete 222) there are many vids on youtube but these are some of the best and he does one about buying second hand lathes .

Ian

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