Colchester Master Mk1 lifting + moving advice

[choochoo_balooParticipant @choochoo_baloo]

[choochoo_balooParticipant @choochoo_baloo]

Dear all,

I'm finally able to move my under-cover Colchester Master Mk1 into it's proper home. It's still sat under tarpaulin from delivery.

The plan is:

• Lift off the pallet onto scaffold poles
• move about 50 yards on flat-ish ground,
• lift up a step into the workshop

I've never moved a lathe of this size before. First step suggests an eye bolt + engine crane? What is the thread of the tapping in the lathe bed for the eye bolt?

Any advice will be gratefully received.

[Nick M0NPHParticipant @nickm0nph]

7/8 Whitworth but i think you should be ok with UNC or i think you can get / make a plate that goes under the slide and clamps on top with an eye bolt

Nick

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

If moving over "ground" rather than a hard pavement, concrete et al surface seriously consider splashing out on a couple of sacrificial sheets of shuttering ply or OSB to give a better surface to run on. Having used both I think OSB is a little better than shuttering ply as the surface is harder giving a cleaner roll for the poles. But OSB is more brittle and likely to break if the underlying surface is not flattish enough. Best is waterproof chipboard under floor board but thats getting spendy. Its advisable to use boards if you are moving over slabs too. If you don't odds are you will sit a lot of weight or the curve of the crowbar in just the wrong place to crack one.

A quick way to get unpopular with the domestic authorities!

As you have a full length base consider sliding the lathe along scaffold poles laid rail fashion rather than using them as rollers. Worked a treat for me with long lengths of thick wall 1" water pipe and a quick squirt of lube to help things along. Having used both rail and roll methods I now think rail style is a bit better unless there is a crossways slope which will let the rails roll sideways. Should I ever move a hefty machine again I'm minded to try some fairly hefty angle iron laid point up as rails. Probably need to blunt the corner tho'.

Clive

PS  Taking advice from a more experienced friend I flattened the end 4 inches or so of a 6 ft length of scaffold pole to make a hefty "lifter, pusher, lever alonger" thingy.  Very handy.  The extra leverage compared to the usual crowbar makes life far easier.

Edited By Clive Foster on 28/10/2019 09:24:54

Edited By Clive Foster on 28/10/2019 09:29:58

Edited By Clive Foster on 28/10/2019 09:30:27

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

I have owned round head and square head Masters ,and have also moved bridgeport mills and other machines plus lots of stationary engines 2 cwt to 2 1/2 tons. First thing avoid using scaffold pole tubing, its about 1 7/8 diameter and if one of the poles slips from under the machine or worse on one side the machine can possible tilt by nearly two inches and machine tools with some height and a narrow base are likely to get close to tipping over and on uneven or sloping ground the risk is greater ,3/4 inch bore water pipe is a lot safer Thats steel not plastic pipe !! A friend who has moved lots of machines only uses one inch solid bar as rollers, machines are too expensive to drop and very difficult to get upright.Greased steel plate was also a method of sliding machines along ,though not so easy for the amature to aquire. Three of us moved my long bed Master into position using an engine crane on the headstock end ,and a rectangular angle iron frame with three long rollers and spindles fixed to the frame,actually it was a length of roller conveyor cut short,stiffened and used upside down , the snag with moving the master with its pedestlal legs,with rollers is one is forever moving it a short distance and then having to reposition the rollers. With the engine crane and roller frame it can be pushed for a long distance especially if using 8 by 4 plywood sheets, use 19mm ply thinner ply will curl up with the weight ,a long bed Master is 3/4 of a ton.Take the move slowly and steadily do not rush , Regarding lifting eyes,my Colchester Triumph had its original lifting eye and this was stamped UNC

[choochoo_balooParticipant @choochoo_baloo]

Thanks chaps. I'm away from home so can't readily uncover the Master to check, but RE lifting eye bolt some places mention a steel plate that sits over the ways that seems to support the eye bolt.

Do I also need this plate, since this manual photo suggests just the eye bolt is needed – can't see a plate too?

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

I have a very early Colchester Master (1946)…it's about 30 years since I installed it in my workshop but it was not too bad to shift….first, remove the securing bolts that fix lathe bed to stand…next, go to local firestation with 'tinnies' under both arms..see the watch commander and ask very politely if the watch could pop round for lift when their session is over…they will get more 'tinnies'……

When the firemen come offer more tinnies and then organize lifting the lathe off of the stand and out to waiting vehicle….four fireman can lift/move/negotiate hazards quite speedily.

At my workshop I took advantage of some previous favours and selected the four strongest neighbours…unloaded from van…stand first (obviously!)…then the lathe out of van down the side passage, along patio, down path, into workshop and onto stand… It helps to remove anything possible from lathe such as chuck, tailstock etc.

[Phil JOHNSParticipant @philjohns74870]

When I moved house I employed a guy that moved grand pianos, he came with two piano trollies, jacked up my lathe, 400kgs Boxford, slid his trollies under it and rolled it out of my workshop, over the step and along the drive. At the other end the exact opposite. He did have trollies with pneumatic tyres but made the job look easy, no stress or strained backs. Cost me £100, he did say that lathes were easy compared to getting pianos up narrow staircase!

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

As I recall things the Master Mk 1 1/2 I helped move didn't have a tapped hole in the bed for an eyebolt.

It came with an eybolt fixed to hefty plate shaped to sit on top of and between the shears of the bed with a flat plate to bolt up underneath to hold it in place. The manual gave instructions on where to fit the plate and where to set the saddle and topslide to get the beast balanced.

I suspect the lifting plate rather than a tapped hole came in some time after the Master was introduced. The idea seems to have been kept for all the more modern machines.

Nigel is right about the risks from using scaffold poles rather than smaller diameter iron water pipe or solid bars. But plenty of machines have been moved safely on scaffold poles. Quite practical and safe so long as you are aware of the potential problems and the chosen route isn't demanding. I'm inclined to think that you need at least 4 poles decently longer than the machine is wide. If there are never less than three under it things are adequately safe. A 6 ft or more pole with flattened end as describe in my previous post can be very useful to teach the machine manners should it start to get out of line. Just the job for easing the machine up a bit so that wooden blocks can be popped under acting as brakes so it stays put whilst you take a think break or re-organise for the next part of the job.

Clive

Edited By Clive Foster on 28/10/2019 23:34:29

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I think the advice given so far is potentially dangerous for this poster. I would not be suggesting moving a lathe, on a base, for perhaps in excess of 50m over undefined terrain. ‘Flatish’ is not a good enough description.

To be safe my method might involve a suitable crane, another pallet and a pallet truck, at least. But actual details would require a good deal more applicable information before committing to the final details.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

The biggest risk with a top heavy load like a lathe is toppling over, always make sure that you or any bits of you are never at risk if it goes over, you will not be able to save it so let it go. I would strip all parts off that could be damaged if it goes over and put some blocks of wood to take any impact if it does. A heavy gang may work hard assembling the gear to move things but they don’t use their own strength to do the lifting. It might just be worth employing some experienced people, apart from the exchange of drinking vouchers you won’t need to assemble and hire any gear, just make sure the kettle is working and you have some good tea, or coffee if they are a posh heavy gang.

Mike

Edited By Mike Poole on 29/10/2019 11:03:53

[BikepeteParticipant @bikepete]

Agree re more info needed… also about the step into the workshop – how high is it? What's the access around it like? Pictures are always helpful

But my first thought was that if it's already secured to a pallet, I'd suggest leaving it on the pallet for moving. That's if the pallet is sound – if not it might be worth getting (or making) one that is and shuffling the lathe over onto it (and then bolting and/or strapping it down so it can't tip).

Depending on the surface it needs to be moved over, a pallet truck might then be all you need, at least as far as the step into the workshop. Place the pallet edge right up against the step then, if the step is roughly the same height as the pallet, the lathe could potentially slide straight off the pallet onto the workshop floor.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

+1 for leave it secured to the pallet, AND move over thick (18 mm min ) Ply, OSB, / Sterling Board.

Short (wider than the machine ) lengths of scaffold pole, (Again, at least 4 ) It should move quite easily.

Be VERY careful if the ground slopes downwards, think how you will positively be able to prevent the machine running away

Keep away from ground that slopes sideways, a recipe for a topple over, unless you are EXTREMELY careful.

If possible pack the boards so that they are leve, but not splitl.

Good luck!

Howard

[peak4Participant @peak4]

I've just moved a workshop myself and also had a Warco 1330 delivered, which I needed to move into its final resting place; Also recently helped a friend move a large Elliot Turret mill and a Large lathe, Triumph I think. I've also had a fair amount of practice moving 10' x 4'6" equipment racks around at work, up to about 3/4 ton.

As with many of the above comments from other contributors, caution is advised. Yes it's good that metal to metal friction is fairly low, which helps one move stuff about, but it also allows things to go wrong very quickly.

You obviously don't need telling that you lathe will be fairly top heavy, so side slopes are to be treated with caution, and even on the level, things can still fall over. For that reason, I'd be reluctant to have longitudinal bars for the cabinet to slide along; if it slides off them, it's well on the way to falling over, due to the momentum.
Don't be afraid to have an extra rope(s) transverse to the bed, going to solid anchors, one either side, to ensure it all stays upright.

Steel rollers transverse to the bed work well enough; on a concrete floor I prefer thinner solid ones, but over an uneven surface, a larger diameter can be advantageous as it allows the roller to climb over the odd pebble etc. If a roller stops suddenly, there's a danger that the lathe can carry on going by sliding over the now stationary roller, due to the aforementioned low friction.

I don't know the layout of your garden, so am reluctant to give specific advice, more just food for thought. If your cabinet has suitable bolting down points, how about using them to attach two pieces of box section, transverse to the bed, with a wheel on each end. Anything to widen the "wheelbase" has to help stability.

Personally, this is the only way I'd use longitudinal rails to slide the lathe along, and then only angle iron, rather than scaff tube, unless the latter is somehow constrained to prevent it rolling.
Engine cranes, whilst having a decent capacity, are also quite cumbersome with something as wide and long as a lathe, particularly if the ground beneath is less than ideal. However, if you have one, maybe it could temporarily loan its castors to your two lengths of box section; they should have the capacity.

Here's how I've done stuff recently, utilising some specially designed angle brackets which were attached when I took delivery of a large and heavy cabinet at work, not sure of the weight but well over a ton.

I re-purposed the brackets, and use a couple of lengths of threaded rod at each end, to form a pair of cradles in which the lathe sits, shown here on a Myford, but have been used on bigger stuff such as my large fire safe. I think I used them on the big Warco as well. 600+Kg

If enlisting help, I always make it clear that only one person is in charge at any one time; it may or may not be me depending on the individual logistics. I prefer a rule that states anyone can shout Stop, but only the person formally in charge, at any one time, says Go. Discuss the plan in detail before moving anything, and make sure everyone fully understands it.
Also, its perfectly reasonable to hand control to someone else part way through a move, such as going through a door. I always do that formally, even if it does sound officious, i.e. "John, you're now in control"; make sure they've heard you and confirmed/agreed.

N.B. Ensure all personnel have an escape route in case it goes pear shaped.

Good Luck

p.s. whereabouts roughly are you in the country?

Edited By peak4 on 29/10/2019 19:16:14

[choochoo_balooParticipant @choochoo_baloo]

Thanks all for the helpful input. I know the time it takes to sit down a write a comprehensive post (I’ma slow typist by modern standards!) This is an excellent forum for noobs like myself.

I’m away from home atm – will post pics of the route tomorrow.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Phil JOHNS on 28/10/2019 22:02:40:

When I moved house I employed a guy that moved grand pianos, he came with two piano trollies, jacked up my lathe, 400kgs Boxford, slid his trollies under it and rolled it out of my workshop, over the step and along the drive. At the other end the exact opposite. He did have trollies with pneumatic tyres but made the job look easy, no stress or strained backs. Cost me £100, he did say that lathes were easy compared to getting pianos up narrow staircase!

^^^^^ The is is what I would be seriously looking at. A tonner well spent.

Moving a large lathe 50 metres over "flatish ground" is a big ask. Moving machinery on rollers is ok on nice flat, smooth, level concrete. I would not try it anywhere else. And an engine crane and a step would worry me too.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

If rural with access then a local farmer and a telehandler is another method…

I shifted mine (still crated) using the lifting arms of my compact tractor and did the last bit in the shed with an engine crane.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Well said, Hopper. As I see it, if it is OK for pipe rollers it is likely OK for a simple pump-truck. I have a mate with an engine crane that is suitable for a lift of over half a tonne – most aren’t – and it would not fit in, or on, my vehicle!

Moving heavy, potentially unstable, items by potentially non-practical personnel is a potential accident waiting to happen. Well, it would not really be an accident – as that is an unforeseen occurrence, not a predictable one.

This thread does not seem to sufficiently reflect the unseen dangers of shifting heavy kit. I only use rollers for short straight moves on good surfaces

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Two days ago helped to load a small lathe, (Warco 918?? ) onto a van with an engine crane. As soon as it was clear of the stand, it was lowered to near ground level. To keep the C of G as low as possible, this minimised risk of the whole outfit toppling over. This was pretty easy as the floor was either concrete or block paving.

You are dealing with at least a quarter of a ton of valuable machine, so taker no chances of injury to you, your helpers, or the machine..

Would not use longitudinal round bars or tubes. If there is ANY side slope the while thing will try to shoot off sideways. Even a push on a corner may do it! Use rollers across the machine. Gentle pushing can be used to steer it

Moving may be made easier, and safer if the machine is winched along, with other hands to help steer / brake it.

Even a ratchet strap can be used to do this. And it provides an additional steady tom reduce the risk of a run away or fall over.

Call in a few favours! Two sturdy friends, one each side at the rear, can steer while the machine is pulled towards the destination, and the roller are picked up from behind the machine and placed in front (Which is why you need at least three rollers! )

You will need at least one hefty pinch bar to lift the machine onto the rollers, possibly one corner at a time, (CAREFUL! ) but preferably in the centre of the end.

To negotiate the step, lay down a board, on each side of it (Outside and Inside ).  You may need to prise the machine off the leading roller so that it can be levered far enough forward to be lowered onto a roller on the board, and then repeat the process as the rear end comes to the board.  This was how we have moved a Myford Connisseur on its HEAVY stand over two steps on several occasions.

Howard

Edited By Howard Lewis on 30/10/2019 12:15:54

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 30/10/2019 12:07:12:

You are dealing with at least a quarter of a ton of valuable machine, so taker no chances of injury to you, your helpers, or the machine..

800kg more like it. Proceed with caution. Enough to fold up many so-called one-tonne engine hoists.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Hopper on 31/10/2019 11:31:40:

Posted by Howard Lewis on 30/10/2019 12:07:12:

You are dealing with at least a quarter of a ton of valuable machine, so taker no chances of injury to you, your helpers, or the machine..

800kg more like it. Proceed with caution. Enough to fold up many so-called one-tonne engine hoists.

Agreed – and with a centre of mass which can easily, and quickly, stray outside the base area!

[choochoo_balooParticipant @choochoo_baloo]

Just had another idea: wouldn't a pallet truck with a lifting facility do everything?

I would lay substantial OSB across the patio as well to cushion the ride. At the step up into the workshop, I could have the engine crane + eye bolt to do the final positioning.

[BikepeteParticipant @bikepete]

As mentioned before, pictures and/or an annotated sketch (or whatever) to give further essential info are needed for people to provide meaningful advice – as it is, I think plenty of knowledgeable people here are keen to be helpful but on the limited info given so far we can only guess as to the actual situation and constraints.

I don't think a patio was even mentioned before… and you still have not told us what sort of 'ground' it needs moving over. Turf? Gravel? A narrow strip or a wide lawn? Gradients?

How high is the step? What is underneath supporting the patio? etc etc.

Until we have photos etc. to go on (and further answers to any questions which may arise from those), nobody can really give you meaningful advice on how to do this safely (other than 'hire some professionals' ).

Edited By Bikepete on 01/11/2019 14:01:01

Edited By Bikepete on 01/11/2019 14:01:32

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Hire some professionals.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by choochoo_baloo on 01/11/2019 12:50:33:

Just had another idea: wouldn't a pallet truck with a lifting facility do everything?

I would lay substantial OSB across the patio as well to cushion the ride. At the step up into the workshop, I could have the engine crane + eye bolt to do the final positioning.

Maybe. Difficult to advise when the problem is still blurred. I understand the lathe weighs about 800kg (nearly a ton), and there's 50 yards to cover, then a step. What's missing is the all important nature of the ground. Not too difficult to move heavy weights across 50 yards of flat concrete. Much harder if it's 50 yards of soft boggy ground on a slope or a river.

Think about the ground pressure. An engine-crane is probably worst case because they're designed to work with 4 narrow wheels over short distances on a good quality floor. With care it could certainly move the lathe 50 yards over a good surface, but it would fail utterly on grass or gravel. Similar issue with a pallet-truck – although more mobile than an engine crane they too are designed for good surfaces.

Laying boards is a good way of building a temporary road, but the result needs to be firm. Even thick OSB will bend on soft-ground, and 200kg at each wheel on hard surface might be enough to crush the wood. Boards alone would be good enough to move 800kg across my flat lawn after a dry spell, but inadequate in the field over the road especially when it's wet. To move 800kg 50 yards across the field I would have to level the worst bumps and stiffen up a few very soft bits with paving slabs and sand. (Or ask the farmer to lend me his tractor!)

Rollers spread the load over a much wider area, and running them over a temporary road made of OSB on any reasonable surface should be OK provided the boards lay truly flat. Provided there's room to manoeuvrer it, an engine crane would deal with the step at the end.

An approach to an unknown job is to do a quick risk assessment and apply counter-measures. What could possibly go wrong?

• Risk. Unfit gentleman attempts the job on his own and has a heart attack or gets trapped under the lathe. Counter-measure. Don't attempt alone. Minimum is someone else to dial 999!
• Risk. Lathe topples over. Counter-measure. Lift at the balance point, Ensure ground underneath is firm, keep the lathe low, fit ropes so the crew can hold the lathe erect from a distance.
• Risk. Lathe bogs down or gets stuck at an obstacle. Counter-measure. Plan the route, remove obstacles, stiffen the surface, and provide any tools and materials necessary for each stage.
• Risk. Team mess up. Counter-measure. Have a plan and make sure everyone understands it, what their job is, and anything they mustn't do (like running in to catch a falling lathe!) Identify a leader to coordinate movements.

Don't panic. Although there's a fair amount to think about and the job has to be treated with respect, moving heavy machines isn't rocket science. Pushing a Colchester on rollers along a metalled road isn't much of a challenge. Gets hairy when there isn't enough space to accommodate equipment, you can't trust the ground, the lathe has to be manoeuvred, and it's your first time. Whether ChooChoo has a hairy job or not depends on those 50 yards!

Dave

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