Coal

[Michael CallaghanParticipant @michaelcallaghan68621]

Hi all. Yesterday I went to buy some coal from my local coal merchants here in Somerset. Along with the beans I ordered I asked for some house coal. Sorry he said, unless you are a pub we can’t sale it to private individuals anymore. He also stated that in two years they will not be able to sale any type of coal at all to individuals, unless you live in Wales or Scotland.
what effect will this have on our hobby. Is there a work around?

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Work around, go to one of the Steam Loco Preservation clubs, find out where their base is and ask if you can have a few picking off of their coal heap. Take a few photos of your model with you. Worked for me.

Bob

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Look at it as an investment, as I’m sure it will be and buy may be 10 or 20 bags from Signal Fuels. I have 5 bags in the yard now. May well get more just in case.  I can always resell it, might even make a profit. Noel.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

What about “smokeless coal”? Or does the future ban apply to anything with “coal” in its name?

[Michael CallaghanParticipant @michaelcallaghan68621]

Nigel, it looks like anything with coal in its name.

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

The Guidance says that

“Coal suppliers and retailers can continue to sell:

anthracite coal
semi-anthracite coal
low volatile steam coal”

Not being a steam person I have no idea what this might mean for steam raising.

[Nigel Graham 2]

On Nigel Graham 2 Said:

What about “smokeless coal”? Or does the future ban apply to anything with “coal” in its name?

Nigel may be on to something.  Did Michael ask for ‘coal’ and the merchant assumed he needed the dirty old stuff that’s been banned for years in smokeless zones?   A simple misunderstanding.

Smokeless alternatives to coal, including Anthracite, are widely available.  Big long list here of what’s legal.

Incidentally, if steam coal really is being banned, how well do locos run on smokeless fuels?

Dave

[ChrisLHParticipant @chrislh]

In 1830 all the locos at the Rainhill Trials had to run on coke so that they were “smokeless”. This carried on until the invention of the brick arch in loco fireboxes enabled coal firing to be called smokeless although it often wasn’t. But I have no idea if coke is widely available these days.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

A quick check on .gov.uk found this … which clarifies the definition a little:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/domestic-solid-fuels-rules-for-local-authorities-in-england#traditional-house-coal

As a non-steam participant, I would venture to suggest that Bituminous Coal  might be inappropriate for use in model boilers anyway !

… So is there really a problem ?

Don’t know … and not knowing, can’t say … but I thought I would just chuck that into the discussion.

MichaelG.

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[Michael CallaghanParticipant @michaelcallaghan68621]

I was told by the merchant that unless sold to a business like a pub with an open fire, all types of coal are to be banded within three years. Unless again you live in wales or Scotland. This did include anthracite.
like most of the green nonsense, it’s all very silly.

[Hugh Stewart-Smith 1Participant @hughstewart-smith1]

Does anyone remember Nutty Slack, or are you too young to have heard of it? It was inexpensive and composed of coal dust and small lumps of coal. I recall it being delivered by horse and cart in the 1950’s when living in Woodford, to the east of London. It was responsible for the awful London smogs which of course led to smokeless zones.

Hugh                                                                                                          Amadeal Ltd

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

And there was me thinking it was peanuts in hard toffee!!

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You have just got time to build an American loco, they tended to burn wood. Or convert to gas.

[Hugh Stewart-Smith 1]

On Hugh Stewart-Smith 1 Said:

Does anyone remember Nutty Slack, or are you too young to have heard of it? It was inexpensive and composed of coal dust and small lumps of coal. I recall it being delivered by horse and cart in the 1950’s when living in Woodford, to the east of London. It was responsible for the awful London smogs which of course led to smokeless zones.

Hugh                                                                                                          Amadeal Ltd

As in “Don’t go down the mine Dad there’s plenty of slack in your pants”

🥴

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

You have just got time to build an American loco, they tended to burn wood. Or convert to gas.

Clockwork? could always go back to that eco form of propulsion

Hugh

[Adrian R2Participant @adrianr2]

What the big boys are up to, will be interesting to see if this runs in 2025:

https://www.nymr.co.uk/news/no-2253-omaha-to-be-converted-from-coal-to-oil

[Chris GunnParticipant @chrisgunn36534]

As i understand it, coal merchants can sell coal to a business or steam rally organiser or heritage railway for example, but not to private buyers/homeowners. This is how rally organisers are able to buy coal for their exhibitors. Coal supplied thus is deemed to be used on the railway and rally field, not to heat someone’s house.

Chris Gunn

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Re-reading Michael’s opening post, he said “Along with the beans I ordered I asked for some house coal.”  That was certainly refused because “House Coal” is legally defined.  Merchants are fined for selling it, and consumers fined for burning it.   It’s specifically a bituminous coal, first banned in smokeless zones 60 years ago, and increasingly discouraged since.  It’s dirty – sulphur, phosphorous, lots of carcinogens, and particulates. The “Nutty Slack” variant was particularly nasty.  Small bits of coal and dust mixed with a clay, rock and other muck.  Last thing one would want to burn in a model loco!   It was cheap…

“House Coal” has always been a poor choice for locomotives because it’s low heat value and high ash & tar content mean it underperforms.   Back in the day, it was found building a brick-arch inside the firebox cleaned up cheap dirty coal rather well and got most of the heat out of it.   Once the bricks are incandescent hot, tar and unburned coal particles are largely consumed before they scour the tubes and scatter burning cinders into the undergrowth.  I guess a model sized brick arch is too small to work – better to burn a clean fuel.

Plenty of smokeless alternatives to “House Coal”, and no sign they’re about to be banned, hurrah.  All the online coal merchants I checked sell Anthracite, which is high heat and low ash, and a few sell steam coal as well.   Cost was surprisingly high to me and delivery off the beaten track is extra painful.   A few of the merchants I checked had large minimum order quantities.  No problem me having a ton of Welsh Steam Coal delivered though.  Cost about £700 and then I’d have to store it in the bath…

For the future though, it would be wise for loco-owners to experiment with smokeless fuels.   Though I’m confident Anthracite is better than “House Coal” and BBQ Charcoal, I’ve no idea how well it burns in a real model loco.  Or which of the many smokeless fuels perform best in a model.  Somebody needs to try and report back.

Dave

 

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Conversion of a Simplex to gas firing might be a good article for ME. About 30 years ago I was driven round the LALS track (Los Angeles Live Steamers) behind a propane fired loco. I think they might have already banned solid fuel because of the fire risk back then. That track is currently under threat from the current conflagration.

[Chris GunnParticipant @chrisgunn36534]

Sod, many of us tried the smokeless briquettes in our miniature traction engines, and mostly could not get on with it, i found it too slow to react and burn when on the move. That was with a 6″ scale engine. Then the supply of real coal came back, and this was down to the reason quoted above. For an exhaustive discussion on the topic, have a look at Traction talk. I would imagine the briquettes would be pretty useless in smaller scale locos.

Chris Gunn

[Michael CallaghanParticipant @michaelcallaghan68621]

The house coal I asked for was for my house, not the locomotive. However during the conversation I was told that ALL coal was to be banned along with wood burners unless they use some rubbish shipped half way around the world and cost a small fortune to buy. And just when the U.K. is being forced into the dark age by green zeolites and their nonsense, the far east is doing very nicely thank you.
it’s just total madness.

[Chris Gunn]

On Chris Gunn Said:

Sod, many of us tried the smokeless briquettes in our miniature traction engines, and mostly could not get on with it, i found it too slow to react and burn when on the move. ….

Chris Gunn

Thanks Chris, there’s nothing like actually trying it.

Full-size locos were provided with fireboxes proportioned to burn available fuel.  Wood burning engines don’t run well on coal, and vice versa.   GWR engines ran extremely well on Welsh Steam Coal, but didn’t do well on Northern coal.  Oil is different again.

Older engine designs hale from when suitable coal was common.   Now coal is threatened, might be worth looking again at model firebox design to see if they can be tweaked to use smokeless.  There’s a balance between the fuel (calorific value & temperature), tube volume, firebox volume,and the grate area.   If the grate allows too much air in, it cools the fire.   Too little air and the heat output drops.  Oxy-acetylene would metlt the firebox.   I’ve no idea how critical a solid fuel firebox is in a model engine; maybe it is what it is.

Dave

[Michael Callaghan]

On Michael Callaghan Said:

… And just when the U.K. is being forced into the dark age by green zeolites and their nonsense, the far east is doing very nicely thank you.
it’s just total madness.

If you say so Michael.

Another way of looking at it is that the British changed the world by exploiting coal, of which we once had a lot. Not so today. Most of the UK’s minerals have been dug up and consumed.  Although we have a small coal reserve, it is nowhere near big enough to support a 20th century style coal burning economy.  To do that coal would have to be imported, and that’s not profitable.  Remember British steel, shipbuilding, heavy engineering and textiles were all going bust long before green and H&S.  They are not to blame.

We adapted.  The Brits pulled another world first by inventing the post-industrial economy, that is ways of staying rich after industry loses traction.  Something to be proud of, I think.  Part of the trick is walking away from loss making enterprises, the other half is coming up with new, profitable, ideas.  We can’t expect old methods to work in changed circumstances.

Green zealots have very little influence on what’s going on, change is driven by global economic forces.  May well be mad, but there’s logic in it.

Dave

 

 

 

[Stuart Smith 5Participant @stuartsmith5]

Dave

Michael makes a very good point.

If the UK produced no Co2 of its own, it would make virtually no difference to the whole world situation.

Instead we import everything from other countries .( mainly China) so in effect we have exported our pollution.

 

 

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

When I steamed my half size traction engine for the first time last year to check all was well for it’s official steam test, on the way over to the engine I realised I had forgotten to pick up a bag of steam coal. So forgetting the coal ban I stopped at a garage to pick up a couple of bags of “house coal”.  Stupidly I didn’t pay much attention to what I picked up and come the striking of the match opened the first bag to find the new “house coal” branded “homefire brazier” was the synthetic compressed ovoids which are supposedly green.  Well it caught fire, smelt dreadful and until it really caught produced a fair qty of light grey smoke.  Once it was apparently burning well and the smoke pretty much cleared (still smelt horrid to my mind) and up to about 30lb on the clock I spent the next 2 hrs trying to bring the pressure right up to lift the safeties to test them.  Bearing in mind the boiler was brand new and I had never steamed it before I assumed it was my technique and firing ability that was holding things back, I tried a little blower, a lot of blower, top air through the fire door damper, no top air, various main damper settings and had started with a thin fire gradually building up the thickness and whatever I did the gauge remained stuck at 50psi!  Despite having verified the gauge as accurate on the hydraulic test only a week before, I even started to doubt the gauge!  In desperation I purloined some proper steam coal from the bunker of a full size engine and within 5 minutes I was up at 120psi and lifting the safeties.  I have steamed the engine quite a few times since using various ‘steam’ coals and never had an issue.  I am confident the issue wasn’t insufficient bottom air as I made the ashpan deeper than drawing so the damper (air inlet) is bigger than similar engines and spaced the bars wider than drawing.  In addition the proper coal that finally did the trick was added on top of an already deep fire of the artificial stuff and there was still ample air for the proper stuff to burn.  My conclusion was the home fire was just not generating the heat required.  I do know a bit about firing steam engines having fired various full size railway engines and road engines over the years with all manner of coal, ranging from best Welsh to some pretty dreadful Russian and Polish that smoked and clinkered something rotten so I am pretty sure it was not operator error that failed to get a result.

The rest of the home fire went on the brazier at a steam rally in the evening and from its name should have been its ideal purpose.  Those sat around it about half an hour after it was put on all drew their chairs closer as it was noticeably cooler!

I am told the homefire “wildfire” is a better product but as I have about 3/4 ton of decent coal I hope I don’t have to try it soon.

Paul.

 

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