Clubs shrinking, exhibitions disapearing, poor magazine articles

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Some random jottings to think about:

There have been a number of threads recently decrying the apparent loss of interest in our and associated hobbies.  It seems that most active members here are the older age group so what can we do?

There does seem to be a lot of interest in the TV program “Repair Shop”.  Men’s Sheds are growing in popularity but mostly amongst retirees.  Fab Labs with their 3D printing, laser cutting, electronics equipment, etc., are popular with youngsters.  So why is Model Engineering in decline?  I suspect it’s partly due to lack of awareness of the hobby and what it encompasses.  If you look at photos of early exhibitions at Seymore Hall and Olympia you will see crowds of children visiting. By contrast recent pictures of the 2023 Midlands Exhibition show the average age of visitors being about 70.

We need to attract the youngsters and encourage them.  There is a lot of knowledge in our clubs to be passed on before it is lost. we also need to welcome new ideas and techniques alongside the traditional ones.

Is “Model Engineering” still an appropriate name?  Many contributors on this forum don’t make models. How about “Hobby Engineering”?

Are we publicizing the hobby well enough?  I wonder how many clubs have a good internet presence.

Exhibitions in Germany seem to be very popular amongst paying visitors, making them a commercial success:

https://www.faszination-modellbau.de/

You can use google to translate if you right click on the link.

Russell

 

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

I think many people who, if they had started 20/40/60 years ago would have identified as hobbymodel engineers, now identify as ‘makers’.

I don’t identify as a ‘maker’ but it is probably a much better term for what I get up to… I just like tools (old and new) and making things. I don’t make models at all and ‘models’ actually puts me off a bit – i’m not exactly sure why… probably because I haven’t paid enough attention to models. I think I prefer tools and process of making to the final product.

I think the best way to engage with younger people is to use the formats they are most used to – phone, internet, youtube, tiktok, discord, teamspeak. Start a Reddit channel

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Can’t go using words like Hobby Enginning as Hobbyengineers . com and several others that are similar have already been taken!

I wrote similar the other day about the content needing to move with the times but two comments today saying they did not want to see 3D printing I MEW shows that there are those that don’t want to move with the times which won’t encourage those who use the newer technology to look here or pick up a mag

I’ve posted links to that show in the past and even said today the German MiM mag has more interesting content than out titles. let’s see someone making an excavator rather than a Loco for a change.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Germany still has a big engineering industry so model engineering still thrives

Britain… um…

It’s a changing world

That “Inside the Factory” program makes me cringe

One week its biscuits, the next week its jelly pots, or cakes, followed by crisps, then beans…

There ain’t much about making stuff because stuff ain’t getting made

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You need to start watching “How it’s Made” plenty of engineering subjects on that as well as food.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Most of that is USA stuff, especially the manufacturing

I always have a squirrel to see what they’re doing if I spot it on a channel scroll

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

At the St Albans club show at the end of every September we get huge numbers of children, but mostly under 10. Very hard to attract the 10-20s. Even though the school where we hold it has a workshop classroom there was no interest either from a tech teacher or pupils.
Model railways has declined as has actually making stuff when instant plastic toys are available. I think a lot of MEs progressed from model railways and meccano which gave them some hands on practical skills. Broken toys are now unfixable even if you can get inside the plastic body as the fault is probably electrical. Instant gratification for 5 minutes until it breaks, then buy another.

Our men’s shed has outreach activities to both toddlers and secondary school but the level of attainment from the school instruction for a 14yr old I was guiding last week was about my level at 9 but at least he is keen now he has tried carpentry.

Amusingly the 7yr old grandchild a shedder brought along yesterday who one time would have delighted in pointless hammering nails had moved with the times and was keen on using the battery drill to drive in screws.

[Ady1]

On Ady1 Said:

Germany still has a big engineering industry so model engineering still thrives

Britain… um…

 

Agreed. Germany has a bigger population than UK so there are more youngsters to encourage.  However look at Belgian exhibitions and compare to the UK with six times the population>

Russell

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, maybe ME could be renamed Model & Mechanical Engineer?

Regards Nick.

[Ed Dinning 1Participant @eddinning1]

Hi Folks, I totally agree with your comments and I am a STEM volunteer, generally on the Greenpower car at primary level.

If we get an enthusiastic teacher we count ourselves lucky; even then the teachers have no background in these activities they are often restricted by the cost of taking the children to the associated race events.

They also have to to practice “inclusion”, meaning that a totally homicidal child is allowed to drive the car (conveniently forgetting H&S assessments). This has resulted in 2, fortunately minor accidents on our patch last year.

 

At the other end of the spectrum I also volunteer at the local grammar (private) school, assisting the students with engineering projects. This is a total difference. These are our (very sadly) few top engineers of the future, both male and female.

 

Ed

[jaCK Hobson]

On jaCK Hobson Said:

I think many people who, if they had started 20/40/60 years ago would have identified as hobbymodel engineers, now identify as ‘makers’.

I don’t identify as a ‘maker’ but it is probably a much better term for what I get up to… I just like tools (old and new) and making things. I don’t make models at all and ‘models’ actually puts me off a bit – i’m not exactly sure why… probably because I haven’t paid enough attention to models. I think I prefer tools and process of making to the final product.

I think the best way to engage with younger people is to use the formats they are most used to – phone, internet, youtube, tiktok, discord, teamspeak. Start a Reddit channel

Jack’s first sentence covers all the supposed ‘problems’ that are frequently repeated here. Model Engineer is a badly misused phrase, that means different things to lots of people. The worst definition is, unfortunately, steam train(usually) modeller. That was always a niche interest, and it’s becoming increasingly more so due to natural wastage – the majority of people with enough interest in, or memories of the subject to build models are dying off. I’m 53, and have never seen a steam engine that wasn’t a special service. Lots of interests have similar issues; twenty years ago a big question amongst hot-rodders was where are the next generation coming from, even though new drivers were still modifying their 15-20 year-old cars in the same ways we had at their age.

 

Current makers are using tools like CAD, 3D printers, laser cutters, small and cheap CNC routers, etc to model or create things that are relevant to them. That’s no different to somebody 60 years ago coveting an ML7 to build a model(I really want to write toy there) locomotive. And there will always be people like me who need to make/modify/repair things for their real hobbies – my lathe, mill and other tools are only there to create the adapter for a Getrag to MGB propshaft, or replace a broken headstock bolt to get the bell ringing again without a long wait and large invoice.

 

The change in published media shouldn’t be ignored either. Many of these subjects are much better covered by the originator creating a website or producing a well thought through demonstration and/or tutorial video than hoping for a couple of pages in a hard to find, poorly titled magazine. This isn’t limited to making either; a good example is the Ringing World, magazine for bellringers, is referred to as ‘the comic’ by most of the ringers I know who can still be bothered to spend the five minutes it might take to read each issue.

 

We also need to consider how our hobbies appear to people on the outside. A reputation for being grumpy old gits obsessed with old junk is hardly attractive….

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

The older folk I used to pubquiz with before covid 19 have all baled out of their previous public lives

Covid created a social situation in 2 years that should have happened over 10 years

[brickyParticipant @bricky]

Model engineers were and are originally ex engineers who have been the backbone of our hobby but with modern engineering requiring different skills,younger engineers have different ideas and higher living costs than in the past.A workshop is not a cheap hobby and although machines are cheaper now ,we all know how expensive building a model can be.The avanced age of our hobby engineers and lack of new blood ,a saying of my dad was, chicks don’t scratch with the old hens, and this has been my experience with a painting group I attend and I think it is true of our hobby.When I was small bore shooting in the 60,s most of the members were ex military conscripts and and we had a thriving league with all local factories having a team.As they dissapeared and the members got older ,shooting ended.This is similer to the situation of model making.I am nearly 78 and still enjoy making and i will continue as long as is possible.

Frank

 

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

and many of us have lived through the post WW2 period of machine tools and mass production with mass labour in the 50s 60s, on through the industrial annihilation of the Thatcher years and forwards to the global outsourcing of absolutely everything (even packing prawns caught in Scotland, shipped to Vietnam to put them in a bag, shipped back to Scotland lol)

From millions of machine tool users in the 40s 50s to hardly any industrial users at all today

Nobody is to blame, it’s a changing world

For myself, I’m glad I’ve got something to cover all bases over the next 15 years, from doing real world bits to doing CAD if my back goes and I’m laid up for another 6 weeks

On the plus side folk like me would never have got ME sorted out in a million years if it wasn’t for the internet, ebay etc

[Roger HartParticipant @rogerhart88496]

 

Reading this article made me think of today’s FT article ‘Data Points, is the West talking itself into a decline’ (sorry, paywall). Centred around the idea that scanning UK documents over the last few hundred years shows a big rise since about 1600 of words associated with ‘progress’ which aligned with a rise in GDP/capita. By comparison Spain was off to a slow start with ‘progress’ words not catching up mid 1800s since which time the gradient of ‘progress’ words and GDP/capita increase compared with the UK has been very similar.

But since the 1960s there has been a slowdown in ‘progress and future’ positivity and a rise in ‘caution, worry and risk’. We seem to be getting into scepticism about technology and a rise in zero-sum thinking. Couple this with a slowdown in useful applicable scientific discoveries and a tendency of the big and powerful to grab the few good technologies around and we may have a problem.

Same journal also has ‘How to design a UK wealth fund is baffling the politicians’. Essentially our pension funds have huge huge sums to invest – but not here. The government would like to change that….

Those old engineering adages ‘you can have it good, fast or cheap’ choose two and ‘if in doubt, make it stout, out of things you know about might apply.

BTW,  can’t stand Repair Shop and I reckon Tomorrow’s World and Blue Peter were the beginning of the end.

 

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

Home Workshop would be much more inclusive. There are areas of home workshop activity that are booming. A hobby of mine is knife making and the number of people doing now is more than ever. Such hobbies can lead into a well equipped workshop. And if you have a workshop then I think you are more likely to have a go at models.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

My main area of interest is electronics. I find the majority of “Makers” in that arena to have very little understanding of what they are actualy doing. They assemble building blocks of hardware and software produced by others. The hardware is often low cost, poor quality items from the far east. A lot of these products use counterfit components. I had a discussion with somone who wanted to use such a module in a commercial product. They were surprise when I asked how the supplier could sell a completed printed circuit board assembly at £1.50 in Qty 1 when the manufacturers price for the chip on it was over £3 in Qty 10,000. Unfortunatly this approach is being used in lots of companies. Modules with no proper performance data or even instructions being used. Even at the “better” end of the market there are issues. An example was the use of Raspberry Pi modules in electric car chargers that were hacked. I would not like to be considered a “maker”.

The changing media is a bigger issue. While printed articles are by no means error free at least the content has had some review before publication. Now it is much easier for a would be author to make a video and put it on youtube or their website than write an article and get it published in a magazine. Trouble is no one is checking the content. The results vary from excellent to downright dangerous even if you ignore the obvious joke or fraudulent efforts.
Disclosure, I’ve had articles published in technical hobby magazine but never posted anything on youtube.

Robert.

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Interesting topic, even though this seems to come up fairly frequently.

I have some observations.

Both my son in laws have no practical inclination and look at me as if I have performed a magic trick when fixing the plumbing or checking for some electrical fault.

Modern stuff appears to work like magic….

Modern houses are tiny, with no space in the garden for a “man cave”.

Modern life is based on throw it away, sealed for life and unable to repair (alhough some manufactures are changing this) giving less opportunities to those rare youngsters who want to fiddle and take things to bits.

No metalwork and woodwork being taught in school

No Meccano needing imagination to build or logic to follow a plan.

New Lego requires nothing more than putting together a few plastic components to mimic the picture on the box

What happened to Airfix kits and the manual dexterity to assemble them without getting glue everywhere…?

Obsession with building miniature steam locos (way too many current build articles in ME and EIM), this entails years of spare time work that requires total commitment to complete, I think with all the distractions and short attention spans far fewer will be actually completed.

Apprenticeships a pale shadow of what they were

Because all of the above there will be less of the type of people like GHT, Tubal Cain, Professor Chadock etc who are interested and knowledgeable enough to contribute to ME or MEW.

Personally ME has changed dramatically since I started to read it as a first year mechanical apprentice in 1974. I think in 20 years time, model engineering, as we know it, will be over.

But I stand to be corrected…

Regards to all

Derek

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

I think all clubs, meeting of like minds, are suffering from the same things. As a member of a photography club for forty odd years we have seen the club go from a weekly meet of some eighty members climb to 120 before covid then fall to less than forty. Many members were at the foundation of the club some fifty odd years ago and it is their enthusiasm that is hard to replace.  Changing life styles and technology mean that we have a finite life as club members.  Most clubs have suffered the same since covid, either with declining numbers or full closure. The most we can hope for is that our clubs can last a little longer than us.

[ChrisLHParticipant @chrislh]

My local ME Society has turned into a miniature railway society by virtue of abandoning the monthly winter evening meetings where other activities were reviewed. Admittedly this was the result of some poorly attended meetings but it does leave people with broader interests out on their own. Not complaining as it’s perfectly democratic, just shows a shift in interest of the majority, for instance pulling in people who aren’t interested in making things.

Regarding magazines, given the probable age spread of this forum (old !) we should remember that we have mostly seen most of it before. I remember when I first discovered ME in the local library, couldn’t wait for the next issue, all so new and exciting. Looking at back issues from all those years ago, not so exciting. In loco design Walschaerts was and is still king, but what has changed is the quality and and quantity of machines that we can hope to own and the arrival of some new developments, particularly 3D printing. The best that can be done is to ensure that youth is given the exposure and the opportunity to become involved in what we like and to accept that they have wider horizons than we did at their age (electronics, computers, 3D, etc.) so that what they like is a bit different (and will generally produce much quicker results !).

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

The world as we personally see it is not always the way things may be.

Airfix kits can be found in Hobbycraft stores everywhere.

I haven’t noticed the demise of any hobby machine tool seller recently, though to be fair the last one I noticed was Reeves (Holly Lane.) when it was populated by men in brown cow gowns.

E bay is still full of stuff for anything that requires a program to make it work, be it CNC, routers, printers or whatever.

Toys do not actually work as full size, (neither can they inflict serious harm if miss-used,) whereas most steam based stuff does as it scales smaller than IC which gets limited by spark plug size.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

Airfix kits can be found in Hobbycraft stores everywhere.

A selection fo Airfix starter sets (with kit, paint, paint brush & glue) have been avaialable discounted at Aldi & Lidl on the run-up to Xmas for the past 3 or 4 years. They always seem to sell out quickly, so I guess that some end up as Xmas presents – though from what I can see plastic scale model building is also mainly an older person activity (reliving interests from our youth ?).

The subject material for plastic scale models is almost as diversive as model engineering subjects – mainly (but not always) older aircraft & AFVs rather than steam locomotives though. And what interest do the majority of today’s youth have in older aircarft or AFVs ?

As a 1960 model I was heavily influenecd by the Battle of Britain film when it came out, which sparked a deep and continuing interest in WW2 era piston engined aircraft. I wonder if the latest Top Gun film has done similar for today’s youth ? I was also too late to have experienced steam locomotives in widespread service in the UK though, as my father always ran a car, I rarely had anything to do with railways anyway. Hence the narrowing of focus of ME and EiM towards steam locomotives and (to a lesser degree) steam stationary plant means there is little reason to buy them.

Nigel B.

 

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

I bemoan the loss of Meccano. It was a splendid means of using imagination and ingenuity whilst unconsciously learning all sorts of engineering. (How else would I know part of my 19 times table?)

Our club has seen a huge drop in membership since we lost our track.

Some members are only there because the subs are cheaper than paying an independent for a boiler test.

The good news is that, despite an ageing membership, we have gained a few members who are under 50, AND really important, are enthusiastic.

It is important that the elders pass on their knowledge and experience; there are fewer trained Engineers about to do this.

The “old ways” are important, when the battery fails on the DRO, but the dial can still be read.

There will always be a need for practical Engineers for the unusual, and one off jobs, that the mass production CNC shops do not want.  They are set up to produce 10,000 identical items, in a short time and at minimal cost.

Understandable, who wants to spend (Or pay for) two hours on a keyboard, to cut metal for ten minutes?

Although the ability to make the one off special does put the work into the class of “Hammering 5p, Knowing where to hammer, 95p”

Howard

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

I agree with ChrisLH that when you are on your own its more difficult as I found when leaving my local society but now have a group of FOUR! who meet up regularly to have a chat and its amazing how it fires you up to do things, which is one of the reasons for club meetings. Problem shared problem halved sort of thing. attending local exhibitions as an exhibitor can make things more interesting as well.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Although it may not be economical for a simple one off part CNC shops will certainly take on one offs and small batches. If it’s a complex shape then CNC could save many hours work carving from solid.

Recently looked into having some pistons machined from CI bar. They are 22mm dia x 38mm long, counterbored, slot milled and crossdrilled & reamed 4mm. Lets say +/_0.01mm on OD and H7 reamed hole, rest +/- 0.05mm. I would not be able to make them for the price and that was just a run of 10 items so they were ordered. Who wants to guess the cost? CAD time was less than 5 mins.

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