Cleaning up new Sieg SC4 and how to remove apron

[James Hall 3Participant @jameshall3]

Here's my first newbie question.

Took delivery of my first engineer's lathe (Sieg SC4) p8020004.jpgthis week from arceurotrade. First impressions good BUT some issues coming up on which I need advice.

Quite a lot on the Web about cleaning shipping oil/grease from new machines. Several say that they have found a lot of swarf and other muck left in parts of new SC4s and recommend a lot of opening up and cleaning out.

Judging from the inside of my gear casing where a lot of gunk has been thrown around – some of it undoubtedly metallic dust (see pic), I would certainly do well to check all mechanical components for cleanliness before first use.

Looks fairly straightforward to remove compound and cross slides to check leadscrews, etc – but the apron/carriage is a different matter. Apron obviously contains a lot of mechanism associated with power feeds (confirmed by manual parts diagram), but I'm wary of just undoing bits and pieces as I don't want to end up with a welter of cogs, shafts, springs, etc. which I can't put back together.

Can anyone please advise on dismantling (particularly apron/carriage – but also cross and compound) so that I can get these cleaned out as necessary

[James Hall 3Participant @jameshall3]

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

I dont think the lube and maybe a bit of bed-in metal inside the change gear cover is cause for concern not does it say anything much about what the inside of the apron etc might be like. It's pretty normal for the inside of the change gear cover to get gunked up like that.

If you are not confident you could reassemble all those gears and things inside the apron, you would be best to leave it well alone.

There are quite a few SC4 owners on there (including the esteemed Editor) and I don't recall any reports of trouble with internal gunk on delivery. No doubt they will chime in with the full story in time.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I think your first newbie question should be directed to your supplier, not here – before you compromise your warranty.

[egaParticipant @ega]

I think that Arc used to offer a preparation service which no doubt covered this query so, as suggested, I would ask them for help.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Beware info on the web, some is old and out of date or may apply to factory seconds supplied direct to the customer from China.

I would not advise you to dismantle nor angle grind anything that prevents over travel of the apron and a possible crash into the rotating chuck, which will likely result in blown electronics.

Please ring Arc tomorrow and talk about your concerns.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

As per my reply to your other post – don't fret (yet!)

When Far Eastern machines first appeared in the last century, they were usually plastered in 'Chicken Fat', a metal preservative that took a fair amount of work to clean off. Unlikely today.

Likewise many early lathes were downright rough, with some suggesting they were a kit of parts requiring much re-work. Not my experience; although clearly made down to a price, my two lathes required only minor fettling, and the milling machine none. More likely to find assembly errors than major issues, though it does happen. Be aware these aren't Swiss Made Toolroom quality machines. If you want one a new one of those, multiply the price by between 6 and 30.

My advice is to use the lathe. Cut metal. In the first instance operators are more likely to cause trouble than the machine, but the main reason is cutting metal highlights real problems far more effectively than beginner guesswork. Or even expert opinion working from photographs! Internet advice would be my second port of call. Books are much better, especially Sparey – brilliant but incomplete due to being written 70 years ago. This forum is pretty good. Quite a lot of other internet advice is outdated or misleading. YouTube videos vary between pure gold and absolute dross. Too many vanity videos of chaps confidently peddling their ignorance. Take it all with a pinch of salt.

The main advantage of buying new is the machine can be sent back if it turns out to be a lemon (refund or replacement.) Don't void the warranty by 'fixing' it. Later, yes. For now concentrate on learning to drive it, warts and all. Post again when it doesn't cut metal as expected. There are no stupid questions.

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by ega on 02/08/2020 09:43:42:

I think that Arc used to offer a preparation service which no doubt covered this query so, as suggested, I would ask them for help.

.

I didn’t want to misrepresent Ketan … so I have found his 2012 post about withdrawal of the ‘preparation service’ :

**LINK**

https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=77089&p=2

Agreed … asking ARC would seem a good thing to do.

MichaelG.

[James Hall 3Participant @jameshall3]

Many thanks for the replies so far. Some specific responses to them:

Hopper: The change gears are also covered in metal-containing oil, so will obviously want to take them off and clean thoroughly – if I found that stuff in car gearbox or sump oil I would very quickly do a complete strip, clean and rebuild to avoid premature wear and death. I suppose that my worry is that if mechanisms have been left with machining remnants there after manufacture why not other internal parts. Advice to leave well alone is probably good but I'd like to be sure that all actually is well. I have to make an admission here in that I'd like to know how to strip the machine just out of a lifelong desire to see how things work and to see internals (from about five my parents friends would give me old clocks, etc. so that I could dismantle and examine them – I haven't grown out of it 50+ years later).

Dave Halford: (This is actually about my second newby question) – I think the problem is not 'over' but under- travel of the carriage. You can see from the pic that the rack allows something like another 60mm of carriage travel towards the headstock – and I assume that it's there because it's meant to be available. As it is, to cut anywhere near the chuck would require the compound to be extended quite a way. I assume that maximum rigidity is achieved with the toolpost above the compound slide mounting rather than sitting in mid-air at the end of an extended compound – surely that positioning of the tool should be by way of the carriage – that's what it's for. But, yes, you're quite right (and others) that this is something I should take up with arc. I will do so.

SillyoldDuffer: You're right, of course, that to start cutting metal is the best way to discover shortcomings and faults and where fettling is required – though not necessary to notice obvious things like parts of the machine fouling each other. As I've just blown my life-savings on this I'm sure that you'll understand my desire not to start using it if wear-causing cr*p is hanging around inside the mechanisms.

[egaParticipant @ega]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 02/08/2020 10:50:39:

Posted by ega on 02/08/2020 09:43:42:

I think that Arc used to offer a preparation service which no doubt covered this query so, as suggested, I would ask them for help.

.

I didn’t want to misrepresent Ketan … so I have found his 2012 post about withdrawal of the ‘preparation service’ :

**LINK**

https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=77089&p=2

Agreed … asking ARC would seem a good thing to do.

MichaelG.

Thanks – how time flies!

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by James Hall 3 on 02/08/2020 14:50:52:

…

As I've just blown my life-savings on this I'm sure that you'll understand my desire not to start using it if wear-causing cr*p is hanging around inside the mechanisms.

I do understand! We've all been there, done that and got the tee-shirt. Taking mum's kitchen clock apart to see how it works is a rite of passage. Unfortunately most of those clocks never worked again.

How much work do you expect to do on your lathe? Modern bearings are sealed, and the banjo, gearbox, lead-screw are robust affairs on most hobby machines of SC4 size, which are usually lightly loaded. It's not like a car where the mechanism gets hot and runs for hours on end. What matters more to machine tools is alignment and adjustment. If the saddle traverses smoothly and all the controls work no harm whatever in spending a month or two using the machine. I spend far more time planning and setting up than actually cutting. Unless you're planning a lot of hard work it's unlikely a little grot inside will do much damage, whereas cutting tapers rather than parallel is a major problem.

In the early stages easy to cause grief with semi-skilled dismantling. You're more likely to break it than a bit of carp, and the guarantee doesn't cover your mistakes. If it ain't bust don't fix it. And if you take her apart and then ask about cutting problems on the forum later, we'll have to add your doings to the list of potential causes. A new lathe should do X,Y & Z, but all bets are off if it's been dismantled.

I'm not saying never take it apart, just good tactics to slow down and reconnoitre first. After you've got used to the machine much easier to recognise issues and make improvements. Don't rush it.

I changed the oil in my lathe's gearbox 2 years late. It was still clean. Although I use it at least two or three times a week, it rarely works hard for hours on end. Lightly loaded machines will survive a long time in imperfect conditions. Heavily loaded machines need plenty of TLC, but I'm expecting your SC4 to be a Gentleman's Accessory, not a Grafter's Three-shift Metal Muncher with production targets to meet.

Dave

[James Hall 3Participant @jameshall3]

SoD: Words of wisdom which I shall follow. I'll clean up the change gears as i can't really get into too much trouble there, and leave it at that for the moment.

[MeunierParticipant @meunier]

Posted by ega on 02/08/2020 15:45:36:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 02/08/2020 10:50:39:

Posted by ega on 02/08/2020 09:43:42:

I think that Arc used to offer a preparation service which no doubt covered this query so, as suggested, I would ask them for help.

.

I didn’t want to misrepresent Ketan … so I have found his 2012 post about withdrawal of the ‘preparation service’ :

**LINK**

https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=77089&p=2

Agreed … asking ARC would seem a good thing to do.

MichaelG.

Thanks – how time flies!

Thanks from me also – always a pleasure to read JS' down-to-earth comments.
DaveD

[jimmy bParticipant @jimmyb]

HERE is a useful SC4 manual

Jim

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

If you are new to metal machining, and / or fitting, heed the advice "If it ain't broke; don't fix it"

It should be a reasonably precise machine. Yes, experienced folk have fine tuned and / or modified their machines, but they knew what they were doing.

If you start pulling it apart, you may upset the factory adjustments, and not be able to reset them properly.

In which case you will have done more harm than good.

If in doubt, don't.

Your time may be better spent learning how to use and get the best from the machine.

We have all taken things apart and heard the "ping" as things, of which we do not know the shape scatter themselves across the floor and into dark corners. It wouldn't be the first time that i have been faced with working out how to reassemble a mechanical jig saw puzzle. And not always successfully!

If you have any queries, ask Ketan. He will do his best to help, I am sure.

Just get to know and to enjoy the machine. Any problems can be sorted out as they arise.

Howard.

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

I have a Sieg SX3 milling machine from ARC and a WM290V lathe from Warco, both Chinese made of course. I do recall that a supplier had stopped offering the strip down service but can't remember which one but thought they said it was no longer neccessary as they had worked hard with supplier to improve quality and inspection. Suffice to say, after a clean up I used both virtually straight out of the box as it were and have been very pleased with both after about 3 years use.

Bill D.

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