clarke tungsten tap & die

[Dan ShillingParticipant @danshilling]

I was wondering if tungsten taps & dies are better than HSS such as these clarke tungsten set:

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cht302-24-pce-tap-die-set/

It is the first time I've seen a tungsten set usually they are HSS or cheap carbon steel.

Elsewhere I've read tingsten steel 'is' HSS so a bit confused if these clarke set are really any good. Perhaps somebody could say.

[Dan ShillingParticipant @danshilling]

tungsten steel

[Anonymous]

My experience of those type of sets is that after unpacking you should put them directly in the bin. Then go and buy quality taps and dies.

Andrew

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

'Tungsten Steel' isn't precisely specified, but it's a steel better than plain Carbon Steel but not as hard-wearing or heat resistant as HSS.

Adding Tungsten to tool steel improves it, but not as much as HSS which contains Chromium, Cobalt, Molybdenum, and Vanadium as well as Tungsten. The performance of HSS is improved by elaborate heat-treatment too.

How much Tungsten is actually in 'Tungsten Steel' is unstated, but the cutters should last somewhat longer than Carbon Steel. How much value you get depends on how your taps and dies are used. I have a couple of cheap last century Carbon Steel sets that are still going strong (apart from a few broken smaller sizes), but I use them gently on Aluminium and occasionally mild-steel, not difficult metals. Constant use or a need to thread Stainless would justify a Tungsten or HSS set, but I'm not quite there yet!

A busy workshop would think seriously about going upmarket, but if the extra performance isn't going to be called on by man-in-shed, I'd rather spend the money on something else.

Lastly, it's not just what they're made of that matters. Very cheap may be badly ground and not cut properly. My experience of Clarke is they're mid-range acceptable rather than cheap and nasty, but I've not used that particular set.

Don't look at the price of high-end taps and dies if you have a weak heart or a skinny wallet!

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 13/02/2023 19:46:15

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Problems with these cheaper, non-HSS, sets I've encountered:

• The steel isn't hard enough or tough enough for cutting ferrous metals efficiently.
• The tap diameters are significantly oversize or undersize.
• The cutting teeth are badly formed
• The square section for gripping in a tap wrench isn't square, or, if square, is lumpy or otherwise mis-shaped
• The included tap wrench and die stock are sloppily made out of monkey metal.

Any of these problems can waste time, ruin your work, lead to frustration, and cost more money in the long term.

Buy these in the short term, by all means, if it gets you out of a hole [assuming it's one not too hard to get out of], but if you plan to cut threads long term go out and buy decent taps and dies one by one as you need them.

 

Edited By Bill Phinn on 13/02/2023 20:44:50

[Dan ShillingParticipant @danshilling]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 13/02/2023 20:44:07:if you plan to cut threads long term go out and buy decent taps and dies one by one as you need them.

Edited By Bill Phinn on 13/02/2023 20:44:50

I think this sounds like the best way to go

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

In that context tungsten basically translates as crap. As Andrew says long form of "crap tap".

Oversimplifying the metallurgy tungsten tends to toughen steel but reduces its ability to take a sharp edge. Good carbon steel, if such can still be found, can take really sharp edge. Which offsets its relative lack of durability compared to HSS because really sharp tap doesn't have to work as hard.

I managed 3 deep threads with a 12 mm x 1 so called tungsten steel tap set before they deteriorated past the point of cutting reasonable threads. Two in a not particularly obdurate steel and one in aluminium alloy. Maybe 1 1/2" of thread in total.

E-Bay "bargain" at half, or a bit under, the price of the progressive sets I normally buy when I want a hand tap in a size I've not already got. Not the very cheapest, which were obviously useless, and descriptive blurb suggested it might have been half reasonable. So I'd hoped for something reasonable. Uncommon size, Tracy were out of stock and my other usual sources expensive for what was going to be a one time job.

Penny wise, pound foolish. As usual another couple of jobs where it could have been useful have turned up.

I'll use it for practice when I finally decide to try tap sharpening on the Clarkson.

Clive

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

As per other poster's experiences, I have found these generally worse than using a good quality carbon steel tap from a reputable brand (I use Tracey Tools carbon steel range for taps and dies I expect to use infrequently).

[Dan ShillingParticipant @danshilling]

Thanks all for explaining this.

At first I was hesitant to ask but I'm feeling glad I asked now.

I've decided to buy some supposedly old unused G&J Hall dies from ebay for what I need at the moment. We'll see how unused they really are when they arrive and hopefully they will last better than the sealey, clarke ect. sets.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

I have several drawers full of old UK, US and Australian made taps and dies that I inherited from my Dad and also that I rounded up from garage sales etc. They are all good. If a bit blunt they are easily sharpened with a Dremel tool by carefully grinding down the sides of the flutes.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Dan Shilling on 13/02/2023 21:26:58:

Posted by Bill Phinn on 13/02/2023 20:44:07:if you plan to cut threads long term go out and buy decent taps and dies one by one as you need them.

 

Edited By Bill Phinn on 13/02/2023 20:44:50

I think this sounds like the best way to go

Yes it can be, but as always much depends on circumstances and what you are doing.

Buying a set delivers a good range of sizes, perhaps at a time when a newcomer is uncertain about what they need. They're good for learning because they're cheap enough to ruin, and there's a fair bit to learn. Taps and dies aren't as obvious as they seem! Sets are also good starting off when many different sized threads will be cut. A beginner advantage is they save a lot of angst – instead of worrying about optimising, just buy a set, try them, and learn from the experience. I don't regret spending money on learning opportunities!

On the downside, sets tend to leave the owner with a box of sizes that never get used. And cheap sets can be too cheap, resulting in an expensive mispurchase.

On the other hand, buying high-end one at time is liable to distress the wallet if a lot of different sizes are needed. My view is to only buy high-end when the tool  will be worked hard, and note that most hobby workshops are lightly loaded. Though allowed at home, spending lots of money on unnecessarily expensive tools is a sacking offence in industry!

In practice I've done both: bought sets to get started, and then switched to buying individual taps and dies once I found out which sizes I used the most. The set is still useful for out of the ordinary work. I always buy new mid-range, Tracy Tools for example, and don't worry much about what the things are made of, except I expect HSS to last longer than Carbon-steel. Both work well enough for me but I don't cut hundreds of threads in difficult materials. One common use of larger sizes in my workshop is tidying up lathe-cut threads. The lathe does all the hard work, after which any half reasonable die is good enough for light finishing.

Another question before rushing to spend money is what sort of threads? Perhaps the worse thing you can do is buy an expensive set for a thread system you never use in practice. In the UK, UNC and UNF are rather on the unlikely side. BSW and BSF are fading, but important in restoration work. BA is fairly common, especially in older British electromechanical and instruments, but also fading. I'm almost exclusively metric because they're easy to source, tend to be a bit cheaper, and – most important – they suit the sort of work I do. A Loco modeller might prefer ME threads, and yet other threads are available for specialists.

Secondhand is always a gamble: what arrives varies from wonderful 'New Old Stock', to scrap. Forget the brand-name – it's what the previous owner(s) did with it that matters!

Dave

 

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 14/02/2023 13:45:41

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

The Clarke CHT303 set works fine. There are sharper and more durable taps and dies, and those are sometimes worth buying for a special job, but as a bread-and-butter set these'll last for years if you don't abuse them.

I don't know what the alleged Tungsten Steel is either, but I'm just starting to use my second set of these in about 22 years.

Edited By Mick B1 on 14/02/2023 17:29:43

[egaParticipant @ega]

Some years ago when I began to see the metric writing on the wall I bought a set described as "tungsten" consisting of taps and dies in metric coarse and fine pitches from 6 to 24mm (40 items) plus the necessary tap wrenches and die stocks (about 50 items in all). IIRC, this budget set cost me about £50, suggesting that the Clarke set, if any use, is good value today.

My view of the set's quality is broadly in line with Mick B1's although through clumsiness I did break one of the dies and, more recently, the body of the die stocks. I don't doubt that these are unsuitable for heavy or professional use but do think they would be a good starter set for the hobbyist.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

These sets can be aimed more at repairing damaged threads than creating new ones. The metric set with the same 'create and repair' use description are all finishing taps.

Just don't get the sets sold at markets, you get drills that can't cut mild steel etc

Edited By Dave Halford on 14/02/2023 18:55:17

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

I've just threaded two 5/16" BSF holes in 6mm mild steel plate, the first using a tap from a "tungsten steel" tap and die set I have and the second using an old Harris branded tap purchased secondhand.

The difference was night and day. The Harris tap cut the threads almost effortlessly, whereas the tungsten tap required much more force on the handles of the tap wrench to achieve the cut. What was also noticeable was that the tungsten tap created a much more pronounced lip around the top and bottom of the hole, which then required more work to chamfer off afterwards. Whether this was because the tungsten tap was oversize [I didn't measure it] or just not very inefficient at cutting I don't know.

The same tungsten tap was good enough when I used it on brass a few months ago, but I wouldn't be in a rush to use it again on any kind of steel.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 14/02/2023 20:05:37:

or just not very inefficient at cutting

read "efficient".

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

The name of the supplier and the price tells me they are not worth the investment. A decent pair of driving bars would likely cost more! They may be good for running through damaged threads, otherwise they won’t last long before needing to be replaced.

The only redeeming thing about the dies is that they are all the same OD! I’ve bought different sizes of drivers, as and when they have popped up second hand . Metric and imperial die holders are not really inter-changeable.

[egaParticipant @ega]

Skimming MEW325, I notice that our respected contributor, Jacques Maurel, shows a tungsten die (photo 5 on page 35 – caption may be wrong one).

If they are good enough for him then they should be worth considering. All this begs the question of what is meant by tungsten but the same uncertainty applies to the various other types including "HQS" said to be "better than HSS" – see the advert on page 23!

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by ega on 16/02/2023 10:16:07:

If they are good enough for him then they should be worth considering. All this begs the question of what is meant by tungsten but the same uncertainty applies to the various other types including "HQS" said to be "better than HSS" – see the advert on page 23!

The Tap and Die Company's apparently unique [to them] use of the phrase "Highest Quality Steel", aka HQS, to designate a material category for taps is ambiguous at best. When you analyse the totality of what they say about taps made from this on the one hand and taps made from HSS on the other, their claims are in fact absurdly contradictory:

https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=183361&p=2

Edited By Bill Phinn on 16/02/2023 11:46:34

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