Cigarette Papers

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

mmmm . . . I have to admit to being somewhat tongue in cheek.

best regards Martin

[egaParticipant @ega]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 08/08/2020 11:26:40:

…

Cigarette paper isn't high-technology. Handy in a workshop because it's about a thou thick (0.02mm), which is accurate enough and about the right size for setting up machine tools for ordinary precision. It's a useful workshop trick, not toolroom accuracy!

Aluminium kitchen foil is rarely used for this purpose despite being thinner and more accurately made than cigarette paper. Reason – being waterproof, it fails the gob test!

…

There are no doubt more accurate and more expensive ways of measuring flatness but for most of us the traditional toolmaker's test of a bit of cigarette paper at each corner with the work on the surface plate is good enough.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by ega on 08/08/2020 14:54:54:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 08/08/2020 11:26:40:

…

Cigarette paper isn't high-technology. Handy in a workshop because it's about a thou thick (0.02mm), which is accurate enough and about the right size for setting up machine tools for ordinary precision. It's a useful workshop trick, not toolroom accuracy!

Aluminium kitchen foil is rarely used for this purpose despite being thinner and more accurately made than cigarette paper. Reason – being waterproof, it fails the gob test!

…

There are no doubt more accurate and more expensive ways of measuring flatness but for most of us the traditional toolmaker's test of a bit of cigarette paper at each corner with the work on the surface plate is good enough.

That's interesting, I didn't know that one. Does the test check if any of the corner papers are looser than the others when pulled? As 4 adjacent papers from the same pack would be almost identically thick due to the way they're made, it seems valid.

I'd love to know who first thought this sort of thing up. Unsung heroes!

Dave

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

This thread is a proper education. I think I need to invest in some Rizla! I had no idea it was so useful, especially in setting up the mill.

[egaParticipant @ega]

Another hero would be the individual who realized that if three surfaces "mesh" mutually they must all be flat. I think Maudslay is credited with this.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by ega on 08/08/2020 16:52:08:

Another hero would be the individual who realized that if three surfaces "mesh" mutually they must all be flat. I think Maudslay is credited with this.

.

I agree with the sentiment … but not the attribution

My nomination is Joseph Whitworth

MichaelG.

.

See Figures 10-13 here:

https://archive.org/details/whitworthmeasur00whitgoog/page/n26/mode/2up

The process is described in some detail

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 08/08/2020 17:09:37

[egaParticipant @ega]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 08/08/2020 17:00:31:

Posted by ega on 08/08/2020 16:52:08:

Another hero would be the individual who realized that if three surfaces "mesh" mutually they must all be flat. I think Maudslay is credited with this.

.

I agree with the sentiment … but not the attribution

My nomination is Joseph Whitworth

MichaelG.

.

See Figures 10-13 here:

**LINK**

The process is described in some detail

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 08/08/2020 17:09:37

MichaelG:

Yes, Whitworth it was; thanks for the correction.

A near-miss from memory on my part as it seems from J W Roe's English and American Tool Builders that the method was developed under Maudslay.

Whitworth was also the originator of the shaper's quick return motion.

I will look at your link.

Edited By ega on 08/08/2020 17:24:59

[Thomas CooksleyParticipant @thomascooksley79020]

I suspect the most common available will be the green papers, it's the ones I used when I use to smoke. I have never used for engineering although use to use them when de-magnetizing tape heads.

Tom.

[egaParticipant @ega]

MichaelG:

A fascinating and eminently practical description of the process!

Interesting that the scraper shown is so different from the modern kind (and looks very useful).

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

I think I've got my head round it, so are they saying that if given three presumed flat pieces, A, B & C, that if A&B, A&C and B&C all contact each other fully (by evidence of engineering blue or whatever) then they must be flat as any convexity (of A for example) being counteracted by an equal concavity of a mating part (B for example) would result in them not fitting flush with a third component (C)?

I'm not very academic so that took me a while.

[Henry BrownParticipant @henrybrown95529]

I use a bit of fag paper occasionally or whats left of my thou and a half shim steel, seems ebay sellers only sell thou and a half in £14.50 rolls, the roll is 25' long though…

[MC Black 2Participant @mcblack2]

I have inherited a tin with pieces of shim of different thicknesses

I assumed that packs of "assorted sizes of shims" would be available but since I have more than a lifetime's supply have NOT investigated.

Are suck packs no longer available?

MC

[Henry BrownParticipant @henrybrown95529]

I'd forgotten that I'd bought a pack of shim steel from Southwest Steam a while back, the thinnest was .002". I just looked again and they now list .001" so will put an order in later…

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

My dad used the cigarette paper method for setting up milling cutters on the Cincinnati No 2 vertical mill we had at home. They was 45 years ago. (He was 99 couple of weeks ago) He was a time served engineer at Cincinnati.
colin

[BOB BLACKSHAW 1Participant @bobblackshaw1]

An ounce of Old Holborn and a packet of green papers, that`s what I remember in the 60s, then going on holiday with me in the back of the sidecar and mum smoking that stuff, and me breathing it in. That put me of ever thinking of smoking for life, but I prefer a smoker than a vaper. A good tip with the green papers noted here as a stick on setting method, I shall get some.

Bob

[Thomas CooksleyParticipant @thomascooksley79020]

An ounce of tobacco use to come foil wrapped or if you could afford it you could get a two ounce tin. When empty these tins came in very handy for storage, I still have a few but I haven't smoked for 30 years.

Tom.

[GeorgineerParticipant @georgineer]

Posted by Thomas Cooksley on 09/08/2020 12:44:58:

An ounce of tobacco use to come foil wrapped or if you could afford it you could get a two ounce tin. When empty these tins came in very handy for storage, I still have a few but I haven't smoked for 30 years.

Tom.

I've got dozens, and I've never smoked. Neither did my father who I inherited them from!

George B.

[Henry BrownParticipant @henrybrown95529]

Posted by Thomas Cooksley on 09/08/2020 12:44:58:

An ounce of tobacco use to come foil wrapped or if you could afford it you could get a two ounce tin. When empty these tins came in very handy for storage, I still have a few but I haven't smoked for 30 years.

Tom.

My Dad smoked Golden Virginia, it came in very useful tins. I made a small chest of draws with six tins in metalwork when I was at school, I still keep Dremel grinding wheels etc in. They are great tins, ideal for allsorts as the lid has a seal, ideal for engineers blue!

Edited By Henry Brown on 09/08/2020 17:57:01

[David Millar 3Participant @davidmillar3]

My brother was in the Royal Navy and a non smoker. He was advised on sign up to say he was a smoker so he could receive the tobacco allowance. When he came home on leave he always had a stack of baccy in tins with a "RN" logo on them. They were always gratefully received by my Dad who was a heavy "roll you own" smoker

The empty tins were great for making survival kits (I was into camping etc). Happy Days!

[Mike LondonParticipant @mikelondon]

I always used to scrounge the tins and still use them 40 years on.

At the same time discovered they fitted perfectly into an internal mail letter rack that was being thrown out. So cut down the letter rack to fit my bench. Very handy for those small items.

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

These came with my s/h S7:

The Rizlas are 1 thou.

The Double As are 1.5 and may be genuine antiques

Stay well,

Rod

[MC Black 2Participant @mcblack2]

Posted by MC Black 2 on 13/07/2020 09:39:01:

I've written to Rizla+ and NOT had the courtesy of a response

I have now had a belated response from Rizla+ and the lady with whom I was communicating refused to tell me the actual thickness (as against relative thickness) of the different products.

I have pointed out that there a big market in the engineering community – but no further response yet!

MC

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

I have used them, lick or wipe in oil on mill to stick them to edge being located but I now use a feeler gauge, metric set if working in metric or Imperial size set if using Imp dimensions, helps avoid conversion errors.

John

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by MC Black 2 on 11/08/2020 09:18:14:

Posted by MC Black 2 on 13/07/2020 09:39:01:

I've written to Rizla+ and NOT had the courtesy of a response

I have now had a belated response from Rizla+ and the lady with whom I was communicating refused to tell me the actual thickness (as against relative thickness) of the different products.

I have pointed out that there a big market in the engineering community – but no further response yet!

MC

My sympathies are with the Rizla lady. Having been on the receiving end of public enquiries, they are often impossible, expensive or unwise to answer.

In this case, the answer is on Wikipedia, but 'thickness' is defined in a way requiring conversion. As usual with paper, thickness is defined by weight and area. Easier and more useful to weigh bulk products like paper than to micrometer individual sheets, which vary with compression etc. Thus a square metre of Rizla Silver paper weighs 13.5 grams.

Other Rizla paper weights from Wikipedia:

• 26.5 gm⁻² liquorice
• 23 white
• 20 orange
• 17.5 red (with cut corners green)
• 14.5 blue, pink

Sales of Rizla paper for engineering purpose are miniscule compared with their intended purpose. I suspect MC Black is the only person in the world who has contacted the company about linear thickness because no-one else cares.

I feel for the Rizla Lady. She's probably in the PR Department of Imperial Tobacco, who are the world's fourth largest maker of tobacco products. As Imperial Tobacco manufacture in Eastern Europe, she might have to speak fluent Hungarian to get an answer, assuming she can work out who in the company to ask.

A common reason firms don't provide information like this is fear of legal action. MCB's enquiry is innocent, but there are crooks who get companies to specify product details and then sue when real products don't match. Breach of contract claims; we invested $2M in our enterprise because you promised 'x'. In self-protection most products are sold with disclaimers like 'colour may vary' etc, and sellers avoid committing to details.

Rizla Paper for workshops is easy though. All the papers are suitable for edge finding and their exact thickness doesn't matter.

If a rough idea is needed, measure it. Earlier in the thread I found the simple average of Rizla Silver to be about 0.017mm and Robin Graham did a proper job on Rizla Green and got almost exactly a thou ( 24.56 +/- 0.18 microns, with 95% confidence interval 24.20 – 24.92 microns. )

Being close to 0.02mm makes Silver Paper slightly better for some metric dials, while Green does Imperial thou and metric 0.025 dials. It's not high-precision and the difference may not matter.

Dave

[GeorgineerParticipant @georgineer]

… with paper, thickness is defined by weight and area. Easier and more useful to weigh bulk products like paper than to micrometer individual sheets, which vary with compression etc. …

Dave

This was valuable knowledge when I was a Science teacher. An A4 sheet of 80 gsm paper weighs 5 grams, and there was an accurate balance in the prep room. No need to count the worksheets – simply weigh 'em out and weigh 'em back in – "Two more worksheets to come back, please." It worked every time.

It also worked with connecting leads, any other small components, and plasticine. Especially plasticine – it's very satisfying to see kids scrabbling about to find the pellets they flicked at their mates, when really they want to be going to break!

George B.

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