Choice of small milling machine

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Hi Robin,

                     I would second Meyricks  comment about a DRO on the quill but I would go further in suggesting a DRO  on all axis. There is a DIY DRO design that does not cost too much and uses scales based on digital calipers. (Or at more cost glass scales can be used.) I have built two of these, one for my lathe and one for my mill. They make life so much easier. The designers website is Shumatech The printed circuit boards and components are available in the UK from

Model engineers workshop 

Les.

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

  Hello Peter H, many thanks for your helpful comments re the mini-mill.  I had been a bit worried about backlash on the fine-feed arrangement but from what you say it seems that this may not in practice be a problem.  The capacities/masses of the two machines seem broadly similar – perhaps it will come down to economics.  Certainly the money saved by going for the mini-mill would be useful for tooling – I gather that milling machines are even more ruinous than lathes in this respect.

Regards, Robin

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Les, Warco, Chronos and Machine DRO all do single axis “DRO units” based on caliper type scales, but they come with proper clamps etc. So you don’t have to bodge or butcher calipers. effective and economical but prone to throwing a wobbler if you get a lot of coolant, not on the head. but on the slide.

 

Ideally you want a proper 3 axis DRO, or at least a 2 axis one on the X &Y axes. I put the digital quill on and then fitted a proper DRO later to X &Y, so I have to use the simulation facility when milling solid curves.

 

For Robin, what the DRO proper will do for you is do ordinary measurements of course, so it acts as micrometer measurements on you axes – (mine will work to 2 tenths of a thou.) and metric at the touch of a button. It wil also set out holes on a PCD so its a dividing head, it set holes out on a line at any angle, it wil give the co-ordiantes for squares and for chain drilling arcs/radii, it will determine and not lose zero (oh you miracle – must have), it has a halving facility for finding centre. It is just a MUST HAVE on a mill, and incredibly marvellously nice on a lathe.

Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 27/12/2009 21:06:50

[Gone AwayParticipant @goneaway]

I’d echo Meyrick’s superlatives re the DRO. I built the Shumatech version and it has transformed my working experience on the mill. Apart from what Meyrick said, no more going backwards and forwards to allow for backlash, no more  counting turns (and perhaps getting interrupted) when making large table movements. It will also handle input from an electronic edge-finder and automatically compensate for its diameter.

 

One thing: I have the local (Canada) Busy-Bee version of the Warco WM18 (it appears to be identical). I could, perhaps, have used the existing Z-axis scale to drive the DRO on that axis but it didn’t appear to be compatible electrically with the X & Y axis scales that I bought. So I fitted the machine with a new scale. I was disappointed with the mounting of the old scale. A couple of holes had been drilled (or perhaps “pushed” would be a more apt description) poorly spaced  through the hardened scale body and attached with long, thin screws and a narrow spacer to the quill. I would bet that there could be at least a couple of thou deflection in that arrangement, affecting the accuracy of readings..When I swapped it, it gave me the opportunity to beef up the mounting considerably to reduce deflection.

 

Other than that one item (which appears to be much the same on all the WM series), I’ve been very pleased with the mill.

 

I also echo the sentiments of those who say “set it and forget it” about rotating heads and columns. Unless you enjoy re-tramming the machine after each time you use the feature, you are way better off setting up cutting angles at the table.

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Hi Meyrick,

                     I did use scales from Machine DRO and Chronos for the long scales but modified calipers for scales less than eight inches. For the compound slide on the lathe I found the four inch calipers from Arc Euro to be the smallest cross section to save space.

I have also built a display for the Z axis which displays the main Z axis on one line, the quill on another line and the combined value on the third line.

Les.

Edited By Les Jones 1 on 28/12/2009 09:23:49

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

You lot are a lot more electrically savvy than me! The combined functions are very nice.

 

 I fitted one of the Machine DRO2 axis units to the mill, which as you say, just transforms the whole thing.

 

I ordered a 2 axis unit for the lathe, but they supplied a 3 axis one FOC, which was appreciated, and also a good move.I ordered for the Z (bed) axis, a long scale. Mistake. Much better on the topslide. Anyway, I have a small scale for the topslide coming, and the 3 axis box has  a Z0 +/-Z1 facility. So you can decide on a length to a shoulder, and use the saddle up to a stop, and the topslide to finish to an exact length. 

 

And you get a calculator with all the trig functions, and the ability to feed the answer straight into the measuring side. (Changes sign too so it counts down to zero for you!)

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Hello, apologies for deserting this thread for so long, ‘real life’ (ie daughter back from uni) somehow intervenened… 

 

Many thanks to all who have offered comments/advice. 

 

Martin W – it sounds as if the constraints you are working under are similar to my own and I much appreciate  you taking the time to pen such a detailed response.   I would be very interested to hear how you find the upgraded WM-14 . My email is orbin at tiscali dot co dot uk, but I suspect others reading would also be interested, so maybe better to post here if you have time?

 

I think, from what I have read here and elsewhere, I’m going to go for the upgraded WM-14, and for tooling a half- decent vice to start with.

Meyrick, off topic, but thanks for your advice about modifying drill bits for brass on my earlier thread –  I did as you suggested and was astonished at how much difference a minute change in geometry made to performance.  The cheapo bits (which were really just chewing their way through before) now cut clean and (reasonably) true without grabbing.

 

Regards, Robin.

 

 

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Hi, two reasons for resurrecting this thread. First, there have been a couple of other enquiries about milling machines on this forum recently, and it might be useful to others to bring the advice offered here to attention. Second, I see that Warco are now offering the upgraded WM-14 on their website, but it is flagged as ‘out of stock’. I assume that this is the machine that Martin and Ray ordered, and I’m wondering if anyone has actually had their hands on one and could relate their experiences of the machine.

Regards, Robin

[David HanlonParticipant @davidhanlon38496]

Good Morning everyone, glad to see this thread reactivated, I have followed with interest since I subscribed to ME at christmas.

 

Point 1 – I am a very raw beginner working in metal (I am a semiconductor engineer now working on manufacturing software systems) – and this is only my second posting…

 

Point 2 – Warco service : I ordered the WM-14 before christmas, and the kind salesperson rejected that idea – she suggested I waited until the new model, which was much better! The new model is due here end of March with a bunch of other kit ( good for me, I live in tha Alps and have just finished the workshop, and the snow should have cleared from my level by then so the truck can maybe get to the workshop door). I think that Warco service have been excellent so far with prompt responses, good advice (as far as I can tell – see above)  and clear communications, but maybe could be a little more proactive?

 

Point 3 :I have also found the Workshop series of books an invaluable reference especially the Lathework and Milling complete course ones. Made me a lot more confident about selecting machines and I am now desperate to start cutting metal, and making some of the tooling projects in those books.

 

I was a bit downhearted by previous comments in this thread, but more recent updates have restored confidence. I will let you know how I get on when the new toys arrive.

 

BTW I type on a French keyboard, and can’t spell anyway so apologies in advance.

 

Dave

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Hi Dave, thanks for your post – I had thought that the upgraded machines were due to arrive in January, but obviously there has been a delay. I think I might order anyway as presumably there will be a price hike soon.  I’d be interested to hear your experiences with your new toys though – I too am a raw beginner.

Bon soir, Robin

[Ray SpreadburyParticipant @rayspreadbury58704]

Robin

I ordered the new Warco WM-14 just before the Sandown show on the advice of the Warco Technical dept.

 

They said at that time that the machines were due to arrive in the UK in January. In the event, the machines arrived in the UK in late Feb and they were then each checked out at Warco.

 

My machine arrived with me about two weeks ago having been resealed in the packing case and loaded onto a small pallet. Although I was promised a phone call to say when it would come, I didn’t get one and it was just fortunate someone was at home!

 

Unfortunately apart from opening the packing case and checking the contents, I have not yet had time to install it & try it. It came with an individual accuracy report, operators manual, toolbox and tools etc and looks ready to use after cleaning all rust protected surfaces(heavy thick grease)

 

Hope that helps

Ray

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Thanks Ray, that’s useful info – I’ve now had my Case for Support approved by SWMBO and shall order tomorrow, for delivery by the end of the month I hope.  I’m inclined to go for an ER 25 chuck/collet set for toolholding – Chronos do a Vertex set for around £150 which is pricey, but I guess you get what you pay for.  Comments invited!

Regards, Robin.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi Robin

Check your personal messages in your profile.

regards David

 

[Malcolm LeafeParticipant @malcolmleafe95932]

I agree with Griffith- Jones reply – a friend of mine (tech college mech eng lecturer and ex- machine tool employee) always maintained that whilst lathes could be scaled down, when it came to milling size and mass were king. He maintained that big was best when buying a milling machine. I don’t regret the size of my turret mill- you can make little things on a big machine easier than you can make big (relatively) things on a small machine. I never have any trouble with cutting forces taking charge of the table – as happens with smaller machines.

[David HanlonParticipant @davidhanlon38496]

Good Evening Folks,

 

Update on my previous post. GEFCO delivered two crates this morning so I am now the proud owner of a Warco Lathe (280V) (Built Jan 2010) and the new WM-14 mill (built Dec 2009)  among other bits.

 

Unfortunately I could only get the crates into the workshop before close of play today ( An 18 year old son costs a fortune in food, but provides a decent amount of muscle when needed) and I am working in Geneva for the rest of the week so I can’t start the preparation work until next weekend .

Anyway – the toys look good in their crates, well protected and coated in some form of sticky protective grease/oil ( the famous ‘chicken fat’ perhaps ) with no obvious damage. Once I get them out of the crates I will have a better idea what to do next…

 

Progress is being made.

Dave

[VersabossParticipant @versaboss]

Hi David,

I would be very interested if you would give a short report, especially about the WM-14, when all is installed. Please check lead and backlash of the spindles, and are all the same? Did you get that famous individual test report, and what does it say? etc. etc…

In the meantime I wish a good stay in Geneva; unfortunately a bit far from me.

Greetings, Hansrudolf

[David HanlonParticipant @davidhanlon38496]

Hi Hansrudolf,

 

I hope to document in some form my adventures in this new hobby, although it may take a while given I have still to work to pay for it! Yes, I have the famous test report with a lot of check boxes and 7 measurements…

 

Measurement                                       Spec                         Result

 

Flatness of worktable surfacce         0.03                           0.02

 

Parallelism of T slot to table              0.04                           0.03

longitudinal parallelism

Parallelism of table to table              a. 0.02                        a.0.02

movement a (longitudinal)                b. 0.02                        b.0.02       

(b)cross

 

Runout of spindle hole

a. at spindle nose                                a. 0.01                     a. 0,01

b. 100 distance                                    b. 0.02                     b. 0.015

 

squareness of table longitudinal      0.02                             0.015

and cross movement

 

Squareness of spindle axis to          a. 0.05                        0.04

table a. R and L b. forw and               b. 0.05                        0.03

back

 

Squareness of spindle sleeve         a. 0.03                        0.02

movement to table a. R and L         b. 0.03                        0.02

b.forw and back

 

Need to dash and get packed so more at the weekend.

 

Dave

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

David

 

Isn’t it nice to see that the machine equals or betters the specification parameters. I must admit that in the past I have had reservations re these acceptance charts but having had a small (Chinese origin) lathe from a mainstream supplier I was very impressed with its performance and accuracy. Just goes to show you can get good oriental products and I know for a fact that Warco and Chester offer excellent support services as well.

 

Nice one

 

Regards

 

 

Martin

[David HanlonParticipant @davidhanlon38496]

Latest Update:

 

WM-14 is now out of the crate and on the bench, It has been plugged in and runs, and all displays light up and the knobs work. The next step will be to open Milling-A Complete Course and get to work making some T-nuts etc.

 

Hans Rudolf asked “Please check lead and backlash of the spindles, and are all the same?” If someone is willing to tell me how to do that, I will have a go.

 

Next question  : as an engineer (semiconductor NOT mechanical – hence lots of questions)  I am used to writing reports, but I don’t see a venue for posting documents ( e.g. several pages of A4) on this site – anybody know if the webmaster has any plans?

 

Dave

[VersabossParticipant @versaboss]

Hi David, thanks for submitting the data of the test report. Yes, I get the impression that all is ok.

As some months ago I heard about a complaint from someone about the ‘strange and unequal’ spindle pitches (see posting from 20.12.09) , I make my question a bit clearer:

– what are the pitches (in mm or TPI) of the x, the y and possibly also the z spindles?

Re. the backlash: either put a DTI plunger on the table, move forward to a convenient  number on the DTI and check then on the graduated scale how much you can turn back until the table starts to move again.

If you have no DTI, but the mill has a table lock, just lock the table and check again how much you can turn the handle without force.. I really hope this description is clear enough.

I hope I am right in assuming  that the new model of this mill is much better than the old one.

Greetings, Hansrudolf

[David HanlonParticipant @davidhanlon38496]

Hi Hansrudolf,

 

I have a DTI and your instructions are clear. I will be in the workshop during the week since I am working from home this week so I will give it a go.

 

Dave

[Peter Wood 5Participant @peterwood5]

Robin

 

I had a Warco mini mill for three years and whilst it served me well it had all the faults mentioned previously.

Backlash, particularly on the X-axis was up to half a turn. The problem was effectively solved by fitting a DRO but at some cost.

The gears were a constant problem and I went through four sets!!

Finally the table was just not long enough to accomodate a vertical rotary table and tailstock when I wanted to millflutes on a column.

 

However I always found Warco staff exceedingly helpful and particularly their engineers in the workshop.

 

Despite this I replaced the mini mill with an AMA25LV from Amadeal. It is exactly the same as the Warco WM 16 and about £200 cheaper.  A no brainer really.

 

http://amadeal.co.uk/acatalog/AMA25LV.html

 

Having now used it on a few jobs the difference in performance is amazing. The gears are much smoother and quieter and the extra refinements make life so much easier eg DRO on the head, travel stops, tachometer, one screw gib adjustments etc.

 

One final thought. I also hired an engine hoist to install it an it made light work of the job.

 

Peter

 

[David HanlonParticipant @davidhanlon38496]

Did a quick check of the backlash by locking the table.

 

X direction ( Left and Right ) = 0.15mm or 3 divisions on the handwheel

Y direction (back and forward) = 0.1mm or 2 divisions on the handwheel

 

Both directions are a little “sticky” but then the shipping “grease” has yet to be cleaned off and it has the consistency of a mild glue.In either case this seems a little excessive to me but OK for the moment since my machining skills are nil anyway.

 

As for the z (vertical) axis since this has a DRO fitted it seems pretty accurate once I had figured out how to engage the fine feed. 

 

Dave

 

 

[ChrisParticipant @chris16039]

Hi Peter, just been on the amadeal site. Some very good prices. Have you any knowledge of their tilt and swivel vices? They are very well priced and look sound but pictures can be deceptive.

Chris

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Hello again. Is it really 18 months since I last posted? I’ve been coping with my father’s health problems, finally sold his house last week. Anyhow, many thanks to you all for your helpful responses to my questions. I ended up buying the WM14 milling machine which seems surprisingly good for its size, but not really had time to evaluate properly. Thanks again for your input, . Regards, Robin

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