Choice of small milling machine

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Hi. Having owned a small lathe for a 6 months or so, I have come to the (perhaps inevitable) conclusion that I need some sort of milling capability as well. I am looking at the Warco mini-mill (currently on offer at £410) and the Warco WM-14 (£635). Although the mini-mill has more X- travel, the sizes/masses/capacities of the two machines seem otherwise broadly similar. As far as  I can see, if I were to go for the WM-14 the extra cash would be buying me (a) a DRO on the Z-axis (b) ‘precision taper spindle bearings’ (no mention of bearings on the mini-mill in the catalogue, so I assume they are of lesser quality?) and (c) a more sophisticated arrangement for Z-axis movement – a rack-and-pinion driven quill and leadscrew driven headstock, compared with a rack-and-pinion headstock drive on the mini-mill.  I don’t know if the WM-14 uses the same plastic drive gears as the mini-mill, which I gather can be a source of frustration.  I am sort of inclined to the WM-14 mainly because of (c) – I believe there is a lot of backlash in the mini-mill arrangement, which can be a problem,but I really don’t know. Obviously I don’t want to spend the extra unnecessarily –  if anyone with more (i.e any!) experience could advise, I’d be very grateful.
Regards, Robin.

[VersabossParticipant @versaboss]

Hi Robin,

Sorry if I have to issue a warning here.

About a month ago I got a message (on a ME mailing list) from a person who bought a WM-14. I cannot do better than copy some of the sentences there; you have to find out for yourself if it bothers you or not.

>I bought a “cheep” Warco WM14 Chinese manufactured (i.e. c. 800+ USD)
milling machine at the beginning of the year, and it is a huge
disappointment. The X and Y lead screws are so rough and uneven that it
is impossible to adjust out the backlash, and they are a bastardized
half imperial half metric size too.

…

 >I never finished assembling it as it isn’t worth trying to use for the
minimal accuracy I want and so it just sits there taking up valuable
space.

…

>And no, I didn’t get an “Individual accuracy test report with each
machine” as promised on their sales sheet.
 

…

>The mill is small enough that …. the cutting action
of all but the smallest tooling will be enough to move the table about.
 

Maybe you have the opportunity to check out the mill you will get before you put the cash on the counter. I disclose the information above in the best intent to help you.

Greetings, Hansrudolf

Edited By Versaboss on 20/12/2009 22:42:22

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

Hi

 

This could prove interesting as I have recently, at the Sandown show, ordered a Warco WM14 mill. Certainly the ones at the show felt smooth and didn’t appear to have any of the attributes that the above posting is listing.

 

My concern about this is that the report quotes US dollars and that the unit needed assembly, that does not sound like a Warco product, perhaps a cheap US import that is similar. Time will tell and if my experience with the WM14 matches that above then it will be returned as not fit for purpose. That said in threads on this forum people have said that they have had good service and back up from Warco.

 

Will keep you posted as to how I find the WM14 when it arrives.

 

Cheers

 

Martin W

[RichmondParticipant @richmond]

Hi,

 

As with all things model engineering wise, buy the largest that space and money will allow.

 

Rigidity and mass are usualy king.

 

Other than that, personal preference, and the type of things you want to do on a mill ( models likely to be made ) should be the things that influence you.

 

Also spare a thought for tooling….. most people forget to make tooling interchangeable between lathe and mill. This can save a LOT of money.

 

Collect chucks, ..dividing heads, rotary tables, angle plates etc are all areas that you can make your own and would be a good start for doing your own projects.

 

 

Edited By Richmond on 21/12/2009 00:41:21

[VersabossParticipant @versaboss]

@Martin W:

I think I have to clarify that: As many of the mailing list members are in the USA, the price was quoted in Dollars. But the buyer lives in London, and it was stated that it was a Warco mill.

I have heard that Mr. Warren is a nice guy, but his employees are highly incompetent (to say it halfway polite)

Now I will lean far out of the window and say that – if I were in the position of Robin, – I would have a deep look at the Sieg mills from ARC The X3 seems to be in the same price range.

[Phil AshmanParticipant @philashman88468]

Martin,

 

I’ve got a WM-16, very similar I imagine to the WM-14. It has none of the faults described above, I’ve been using it for nearly a year now with no problem at all. Probably the X3 is every bit as good, but I chose the Warco because it has a bigger table, and the M2 taper makes tooling interchangeable with the lathe.

[Peter GainParticipant @petergain89847]

I have been using a Warco WM16 for about three years.  The best option is to “take as long as it takes” to fiddle around & get the column truly vertical & lock it as tightly as possible. (Leave it there, use a tilting vice). Using the usual workshop instruments I cannot now detect any deviation of the column from perpendicular to the table in either direction. As purchased, the machine required some cleaning of the slideways & leadscrews but not a great deal. Some tweaking of the gib adjustments were carried out. My impression is that it is more accurate than one would expect for the price. If you purchase the type with a “self release” draw bar, do not tighten it, just a light nip, the taper has a vicious grip!

I do not recognise the Warco employees rather rudely described by “Versaboss”. On my visits to the Co. I have found the staff friendly & helpful.

Peter Gain.

[Mark DickinsonParticipant @markdickinson21936]

Robin there is a review of the WM14 at http://cign.org/wm14mill.html 

 

regards Mark 

Edited By Mark Dickinson on 21/12/2009 19:48:44

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Many thanks all for your responses so far.  I confess I was rather surprised by the problems with the WM14 reported by Hansrudolf’s correspondent as I had heard that Warco stuff was generally OK and that they were good to deal with.  There is a review of the machine at http://cign.org/wm14mill.html which mentions a few minor niggles, but nothing that drastic –  which seems to chime in with what the majority are saying here.

 

Martin  – I’d be most interested to hear how you get on with your machine when it arrives. As you presumably had the opportunity to ‘twiddle’ with various machines at Sandown I’d also be interested to know what considerations led you to your choice of purchase.

 

I have indeed looked at ARC’s Sieg X3, which by all accounts is a very capable machine, but sadly it is just too big – the 60kg of the WM14 is at the top limit of what I can cope with.

 

I like Richmond’s suggestion (and so does my wife!) that I should make my own tooling so far as possible – but can anyone advise on the best startup option for workholding?  I am thinking to go for a decent quality tilting vice, then make my own T-nuts, step blocks etc.  Does that sound sensible?

Thanks again, Robin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MetalhackerParticipant @metalhacker]

This thread I find very interesting as I too am contemplating a new Mill. The Arc X3 or super X3 appeal greatly. Has anyone any experience of them and their accuracy. Also is the factory setup worth it or is the rather involved process detailed on their website a useful way of getting to know the intricacies of the machine’s assembly. Time is at more of a premium than money, if that is relevant.

 

Thanks for anyone’s thoughts

Andries

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

What Warco call the mini-mill is I believe sold by many vendors as the X2 – whenever I’ve looked at it the table looks very flimsy.

 

Tooling…

 

Don’t bother with a tilting vice, just buy a good standard 4 inch m/c vice with a swivel base.  Take it off the base for 90% of the usage for rigidity and more headroom.

 

Buy a clamping set, they are reasonably cheap and worth having all the bits and pieces when you need them.

 

What I find most versatile for workholding is an angle plate, ground on all faces, a collection of toolmaker’s clamps and G-clamps.  I probably use that twice as often as the vice.  Fit a fence to one end that you can clamp one machined edge of the work against to get the other at right-angles.  Harold Hall in MEW writes good sense about workholding.

 

If you have the option, I’d recommend getting an R8 spindle with collets that fit directly in it rather than a Posilock or ER-type chuck.  Less overhang, collets don’t get stuck, grip like fury, and are reasonably priced as they are standard for the Bridgeport.

 

John.

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

With respect but there have been two very telling statements made WRT to milling.

 

Rigidity and mass is king.

 

and

 

Leave it there and use a tilting vice.

 

To amplify. The tilting head is not a facility that anyone uses much, and if you do need to drill or mill at an angle a tilting table is a far better alternative because you can set it up really accurately with sine bars or using trig to get a number of thou tilt.

 

To sacrifice a really rigid column for a tilting facility  is IMO simply insane.

 

Next, milling is inherently a vibrationful thing and if you want a good finish, you want the biggest heaviest hunk of metal with the most rigid non flexing column you can get and EVERYTHING else apart from a low enough bottom speed is secondary.

 

You mentioned 2 mills. The larger of the two is by far the better choice, for my money,  if you can run to it and the 16 better still. Simply because when milling accessories just soak up space on the table.You need to be able to run a cutter on and off the far end, wind the table clear of the quill to get a measurement etc.  Also milling with a facing cutter of any diameter needs horsepower simply because the leverage against the motor is greater.

 

When it arrives, like most chinamen, you will have to clean it up and oil and adjust the gibs. Then set the head horizontal across the bed (with shims) and along the bed using the tilt facility. Once you have the head level to within .001″ per foot, tighten up and leave it there – hence the need for a bigger table and a tilting table.

 

 

Personally I wouldn’t use a tilting vice for everyday use, because they are not as rigid as a proper K type.

 

Did I mention somewhere that rigidity is king – especially where the column is concerned.

 

As for Warco service, I can only speak as I find. I bought their Super Major Mill, for the size, the geared head, the quill diameter, and the low bottom speed which is so important, – plus some other bits and pieces. They have been fast and very efficient, and that machine is a winner. The great thing about it BTW, is that to level the head, it takes a 6 foot length of 2×1″ steel section clamped to the head to move it. – its that heavy. And its just great because it soaks up vibration – so it gets used on tiny little slide valves or whatever.

 

While you are after a smaller mill, in principle, the same details apply.

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

John and Meyrick, thanks for your advice re tooling.  At some point I shall need the capability of making non-right angle cuts, but I take the point that  for general use a tilting vice would compromise rigidity unneccessarily.  I shall go for a clamping set and swivel vice as recommended.  I don’t think I’ve come across the term ‘K-type’ before though – can you elucidate Meyrick?

 Regards, Robin

 

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Oh its just a form of swivel – sort of generic term.  Look on the Chronos site, and they do the Vertex version, but I am sure there are others.

 

If you are getting one (the degrees scale is not a lot of use – you have tot square up and then use trig for any but the crudest offset, )they come with two flat jaws. You also need the one vee grooved bolt on jaw. It has a vertical vee groove and a horizontal one for holding bar parallel or vertical.

 

Robin – I beg you – don’t sacrifice size or rigidity. Hire an engine hoist, steal a grandchild, to get it in place if you are a tad decayed for such games, but make sure the machine is rigid. Mine is some 600kg I think from memory (a lot more than I can pick up unaided), but I got it unpacked and on its stand on my own with an engine hoist.

 

Think big. – it will pay for the rest of your modelling (milling) career. Lathes can be smaller if you want – I don’t – but not mills (in relative terms)

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Oh its just a form of swivel – sort of generic term.  Look on the Chronos site, and they do the Vertex version, but I am sure there are others.

 

If you are getting one (the degrees scale is not a lot of use – you have tot square up and then use trig for any but the crudest offset, )they come with two flat jaws. You also need the one vee grooved bolt on jaw. It has a vertical vee groove and a horizontal one for holding bar parallel or vertical.

 

Robin – I beg you – don’t sacrifice size or rigidity. Hire an engine hoist, steal a grandchild, to get it in place if you are a tad decayed for such games, but make sure the machine is rigid. Mine is some 600kg I think from memory (a lot more than I can pick up unaided), but I got it unpacked and on its stand on my own with an engine hoist.

 

Think big. – it will pay for the rest of your modelling (milling) career. Lathes can be smaller if you want – I don’t – but not mills (in relative terms)

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Hmm. I’m beginning to suspect that rigidity might be a desirable characteristic in a milling machine .  Sadly, I just can’t accommodate anything much above 60kg as it has go in an upstairs room.  However, thanks for pointing this up. To recap, when I started this thread I was trying to decide between  Warco’s mini-mill and their WM14 and listed what I thought what I thought were the important differences, but failed to note that the mini-mill has a tilting column, while the WM14 has a tilting head. I guess the latter is the lesser abomination so far as compromising rigidity goes.  Though no-one has posted of  their experiences with the mini-mill for good or ill, I think I’ll go for the WM14.  Thanks again, and Merry Xmas to all – off to reinforce roof rafters now in case Santa’s been reading this.

Regards, Robin.    

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Just looking at the ARC EURO TRADE catalogue that came with ME a few months back,they have theSieg model S X1L Super mill,weight(net/gross) 40kg/56kg,I don’t know if they make some thing between that and the X3 wgt 135kg/160kg,but if there is a X2 it would be about your wgt limit,but even the X1,could be worth looking at.Unfortunatly the collumn tilts,but set it up to 0 and lock it.I like the square collumn.Havn’t seen one of those this side of the ocean.Ian S C I see it has no 2 MT.

[Peter GainParticipant @petergain89847]

 

Hi Robin,

Before purchasing my Warco WM16 I had one of their mini-mills. The tilting column of the mini-mill is no more (or less) difficult to set up than a tilting head. The securing bolt for the column is sufficiently adequate for the size of the machine. I found no problem with the column moving once set up. I would not consider the tilting facility an abomination as it can be used to acquire an accurate alignment. The accuracy being dependent upon your patience! The mini-mill can be set up to carry out accurate work & is capable of giving much pleasure in use. The only reason that I upgraded to the WM16 was for the extra capacity. Either machine will prove satisfactory if your work pieces are within the machine limits. The usual caveat “buy the heaviest that you can accommodate” applies.

Peter Gain.

 

 

 

 

.

 

>>

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Hi Ian S C , thanks for your suggestions.  Although ARC don’t do the Seig X2 anymore, they can be had (Axminster sell them in the UK) but the reviews on the Axminster site and elsewhere say that they are (a) very noisy and (b) prone to problems with the drive train gears shearing. Although both those defects can be mitigated by replacing the gears with a belt drive, the basic specs of the X2 don’t seem as good as the Weiss (ie Warco, Chester, Amadeal up here) machines.  Food for thought though.

Thanks again, Robin.

[Ray SpreadburyParticipant @rayspreadbury58704]

Hi Robin

If you call Warco & speak to Roger (?) in the technical dept I think you will find that the WM14 which they are selling from January is an upgraded model and not at all to be confused with the model they had at the show or the model reviewed in one of the postings above.

I believe you will find it has a larger table & now comes with a digital rev counter & head elevation the same as the WM16 in fact it is now very similar to the WM16 and much superior to the Mini Mill.

Yep, I ordered one too after speaking to Roger

Cheers

Ray

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

Hi

 

Robin sorry about the delay in responding to your question as to why I chose to purchase a WM 14 mill at Sandown but I have lost two attempts to post on this forum to the ether of this site!!!!

 

Firstly I totally agree with what Meyrick says about size. The bigger and sturdier the better and if was in a position I would like to own a mill on par with a large Bridgeport but unfortunately space and cost dictate otherwise.

 

I wanted to purchase a mill that fitted within certain size/weight considerations as well as my budget. The weight/size put it at about 50 to 80kg and it had to fit available space in my shed/workshop. The cost really limited my choice to a Chinaman import and I wanted to purchase it through a company whose main product line was in engineering machinery and not mainly support items.

 

As I had already bought a Chester DB7V lathe which with a bit of fine tuning is performing brilliantly and the support from Chester is excellent, see their forum, I naturally looked at their products; namely the Champion 16V and 20V mills. Also in the frame was Warco and they were offering the WM 14 and WM 16 mills.

 

The Warco WM-16 was a bit on the heavy side as was the Chester Champion 20V so it was a straight choice between the WM-14 and Champion 16V. At the show I talked to Warco and they were offering the WM-14 with a quill fine feed etc at the same price as the standard WM-14. Couple this with the digital quill read out, taper gibs on the slides and it ticked most of the boxes I had set.

 

Secondly it is compatible with my lathe which has a 2MT tail stock and a 3MT headstock , this can readily be sleeved down to 2MT should it be necessary. So the WM-14 met size, cost and compatibility requirements.

 

As I am a rank beginner in mechanical engineering and don’t, yet, have aspirations to undertake large productions I selected machinery that meet, I hope, my needs. The WM-14 will certainly be better than jury rigging a pillar drill to mill with.

 

All that said I can recall with some nostalgia winter evenings  with my father and a hand drill gripped in a vice on the kitchen table and his tongue in cheek chastisement of ‘Can’t you keep this turning at a constant rate for 5 minutes’ while he attacked a piece of brass gripped in the chuck with a file. He made scratch built OO locomotives from the old and real BLUE prints. At the end of the evening there would be a small pile brass filings and lying among them a dome, chimney, safety valve or similar to fit one of the Western locos he was building, not only that but they were spot on dimensionally. It just goes to show that it is not always what you have but how you can use what you have got.

 

So I shall try to emulate him and if it means taking a few extra less extreme cuts with the mill or lathe so be it as they say, one has to cut ones clothe etc….

 

Will let you know how all pans out.

 

All the best

 

Martin W

Edited By Martin W on 27/12/2009 00:32:07

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Sorry Robin not much help,but I’m finding out about some of the stuff in the UK.In general we get reasonable stuff here in NZ,all Asian,mainly Chinese,although mine is Taiwanese.I think if you wanted brittish machinery you’d have to import your own!The only ones here that one should keep away from are the combination lathe/mill machines.Ian S C

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Don’t knock the combies Ian, at the end of the day, it’s down to the skill of the operator and there are loads of examples of superb work on various other forums made on them. The later generation of Taiwanese machinery (BEFORE they had to bow to the mass exports of their mother country) are good to go “Out of the box” but the early ones from there, just like the first generation Chinese, were Pigs ears.

 

  And for combies, I am looking at BOTH types regarded as such, the ones with the milling head as part of the headstock of the lathe and also with the head and column bolted to the back of the lathe bed.

 

  Regards  Ian.

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

I’d certainly recommend that digital quill readout.

 

I fitted one as a poor mans DRO -very similar if not identical to the units shown on the pics. Very nice and easy to use, and very accurate. I fitted mine to an existing machine, and don’t regret it at all. Pointed out the errors on the feed system!

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