Chinese lathe/mill tools

[Colin LLoydParticipant @colinlloyd53450]

[Colin LLoydParticipant @colinlloyd53450]

While I appreciate that Chinese made lathes are not regarded with much favour, is this also true of lathe and mill tools produced in China that are for sale on Ebay etc?. Is there a quality distinction between HSS and carbide tools from China?

[Roger Provins 2Participant @rogerprovins2]

If all the Chinese made machinery and tooling across the land vanished there would be few working hobby workshops left.

Edited By Roger Provins 2 on 04/12/2014 13:58:52

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I should probably start out by stating that some (if not most) people seem quite happy with the quality of their Asian equipment these days Colin.

I think that the general quality does seem to have improved over the years, mainly (I suspect) due to the combined efforts of both the main UK importers and the larger Asian manufacturers. This is just an impression of mine but I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a new Asian machine to my friends if it was capable to meeting their needs, Of course, I should state that generally I only own "old iron" but this isn't because of poor Asian quality per se. Perhaps the best way to explain this apparent contradiction is that what "I do "is somewhat similar to running "classic" cars. I do it because I want to – not because there's anything particularly wrong with the new machinery (or modern cars…)

However, when you get down to the smaller tooling "bits" there can still be quite a mix of quality available in my view. I mainly buy from the better known UK suppliers for this reason – relying on them to use reasonably good manufacturers themselves. If you do buy from eBay or similar – then I think it's a bit more 'pot luck'.

So my answer to your question is a qualified – yes – the Asian products are good enough for most peoples needs – but use a trusted source. Having said all that, there are still a few things where it is worth paying more and getting a good brand – hacksaw blades immediately come to mind for instance!

Hope this helps a (little) bit. I'm also sure others will have different views to mine.

Regards,

IanT

[Roger Provins 2Participant @rogerprovins2]

I have an Chinese 9×20 CQ6123 by Shaoxing Machine Tool Works lathe. It must be quite a early machine as it's not a re-badged one.

I bought it from the wife of an engineer who had finally had to go into a retirement home. I think he must have spent time fettling it as all the usual checks and measurements come out very well. All the controls are smooth and precise (except there's some backlash in the cross slide handle I can't seem to adjust out).

It works well enough for me (not much more than a beginner) and, for what I paid, I'm very pleased with it.

Slightly changing the subject I think Ian's point about where you buy new stuff from being important is very valid.

Roger (in a very cold Gloucester).

[clogsParticipant @clogs]

Hi Colin

just a couple of things….

what are u planing to make ? remember if u plan on making wrist watches u'll end up making a Grandfather clock…..

will u be using a 12×6 shed….ur front room…or a double wide garage….

I like old iron and it's not all worn out junk…..

I was looking at a little used Warco mill, then I realised lucky for me it was not that much more to get my J head Bridgeport….

the big stuff is very heavy…can u move safely and easily….

have u got a good electric supply….

remember big'ns will make small stuff but not visa-versa….

If u just want a bit of (expensive) fun buy used and if u like it then trade up…..what ever u end up with somebody will always buy it when u want rid….

and just lastly if u buy used try and get the tooling, that's where the money goes….

new tooling is just a mine field unless u have big buck's…..just buy the best u can…..

good luck Frank

 

[JonParticipant @jon]

I would state that most wouldn't know the difference between Asian and quality tools and just put up with them.

There are some good products but you really have to be careful in choice not limited to big brand names.

[Colin LLoydParticipant @colinlloyd53450]

Hi Guys,

I seem to have produced a bit of confusion. I already have a lathe/milling machine – a Chester Mini-Multi. The reference to Chinese lathes was by way of introduction to the request for information about the quality of Chinese and Hong Kong supplied lathe and mill bits for my machine. They are generally much cheaper than those supplied from UK, Europe or US. Cheaper normally means lower quality.

However, I'm an amateur electric guitar maker and have found guitar parts supplied from China and the Far East to be of good quality – mainly because the vast majority of middle priced guitars are made in China and Korea.

The Chester machine is just a benchtop unit but seems well made and sturdy (I got it on Ebay a couple of days ago). I specifically got it because I am making an exact replica of Brian Mays Red Special guitar (The Queen guitarist for those who don't know) and need to make the bridge and tremolo units exactly as Brian and his Dad made them. So this gives the hint as to the size of the items to be made. Lathe and milling work will be of the order of millimetre grooves and working on items no larger than about 6 x 4 cm, mainly in aluminium, brass, copper but also some mild steel and stainless steel for the bridge string rollers. So the mill tool bits will be no more than a couple of mm in diameter – need ball end and end mill cutters.

I think between you – you have indicated that the Chinese tool bits may do the job but probably won't last as long as more expensive items. I would appreciate the web addresses of some recommended UK tool bit suppliers – as alluded to by Ian.

[Gray62Participant @gray62]

Colin,

I have bought tooling from Warco, RDG, Chronos/Glanze, Arc Euro. All have performed as expected, no complaints.

For the majority of the work you are proposing, HSS tooling will be sufficient, If you use a free cutting stainless for the bridge rollers, then HSS (very sharp) wil be fine even for those piddly 1mm pins on the end of the rollers (be prepared for the odd breakage(pin not tooling) – I've made a few in the past ) For the roller grooves, you will need to grind your own tooling, I used parting tool blades for these. Have sent you a PM so if you have any questions ask away.

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

I can only reiterate most of Franks queries; I have a Warco 250V-F & a Wm16 mill, bought new as a package from Harrogate exhibition in 2012, there were some initial problems which were soon sorted by Warco (thanks) and have found it to be more than adequate for what I want to do. Most of the Chinese machines do have inbuilt probs to start with but a lot of them have been resolved by way of feedback to the dealers & the others tend to be fixed reasonably easily at home I still have one or two to sort out… when I get round to it.. e.g. replace the compound slide gib key with a brass version as the original is just a mild steel piece which is not what you would term a proper fit, but it has served ok so far.

There are decent second hand machines around, Colchesters, Harrisons, Myfords (silly money!) South Bend (UK versions) Emco's etc but these tend to be hefty stuff ( & not necessarily in the best condition/accuracy ) so, as said, what is your workspace etc. etc. as for tooling get what you need to start with & build up from there bit at a time, there are bargains to be had at car boots if you look carefully.

You've got to bear in mind that these days most suppliers get their stock from China anyway with not a great deal 'made in the UK', you've only got to look at the proliferation of cars,(Nissan, Mitsubishi, Kia, Dacia, Subaru, Toyota etc, TV's ( Sony, LG, Panasonic etc. &nbsp & other electrical goods that are 'Made in China' / Korea / Japan' Spain… & now India is rising to the fore so quality can & will differ, so if you're looking for 'good quality' you're looking at Presto, Buck & Hickman, Starret (both USA) Guhring (German), Mitutoyo (Japanese!) to name but a few, but expensive in comparison, at the end of the day you meet up with the old clichés … 'you pays your money', or, 'you get what you pay for'…

Happy hunting & just enjoy what you decide to get.

George

Edited By mechman48 on 04/12/2014 18:26:13

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Hi Colin,

The mini-multi is going to struggle to work 99% of carbide tools hard enough for you to see any benefit from them. HSS is more forgiving and tends to give a better finish on small machines.

What i'd like to know about the red special is how much the astrophysicist and his dad really knew about guitars before making it – it's clear they must have had a pretty good idea what they were doing.

Neil

[JonParticipant @jon]

Colin the cutters you will require theres not much difference in price in fact the poor stuff often dearer.

Have a look for FC3 cutters these come in same packaging from J&L (MSC), Hertel, unbranded suppliers extremely cost effective. Ebays poor on pricing of late most sub 6mm can or could be had for £2.38 each from J&L maybe more for bullnose. Choose the uncoated for aluminium and brilliant for drilling on radiuses, chamfers etc without a pilot hole been using them for 20 yrs.

Just checked some of the prices have more than doubled in 3 months at J&L. Now £7+vat for a 1mm they were about £3. Buy a few if using ER any vibration and flex theyre toast. Page 13 right hand side called JL3 **LINK**

Very true George not discounting the VAG group with several plants around China with German management standing over Chinese workers gives them no leeway to cut corners as is the norm.

[Colin LLoydParticipant @colinlloyd53450]

This is specifically to Neil about the Red Special: Brian's first electric guitar was one similar to an Egmond. a guitar that George Harrison had. And Brian and his Dad were already aware of the Fender and Gibson guitars and amplifiers being played by Buddy Holly, Hank Marvin, Eric Clapton and others of the late 50's and early 60's (The Red Special was planned and built over 2 years beginning in 1963 and made its first public appearance in 1966) . Brian's dad was an electronics engineer. From the recently published book about the Red Special it's clear that they both put in a lot of work into planning the instrument, creating test beds for the tremolo arm, made their own pickup wiring apparatus, etc. as well as acquainting themselves with the theory behind fret positioning for different scale lengths, etc. They knew about truss rod tensioning because they put their own home-made truss rod into the neck and Brian made his own fretboard curvature template and fret-curving clamp – things that any modern amateur guitar builder will make but was probably novel back then. The drawings and notebook entries shown in the book indicate that they had a thoroughly scientific/engineering approach to the design and manufacture of the guitar.

[Graham Green 3Participant @grahamgreen3]

If you decide to buy Chinese tooling, then I'm afraid that I will have to advice you,– that you ONLY get what you pay for.

Milling cutters and drill bits come to mind immediately here, they seem to leave some vital ingredients out of the molten metal when they are making them. I have had a 3/4 inch twist drill grab in a job and the flutes on the drill unwound, that would be about the best way of describing what happened to this soft twist drill.

It is the same with the milling cutters, the sharp edges just seem to melt away very quickly, then your pushing a blunt cutter into the work piece, this is very closely followed by the sound of the cutter snapping.

If you need tools that you will do the job adequately and last, then DO NOT buy the el-cheapo chinesy crud.

If you only work in wood or plastic, then buy them by all means.

[Colin LLoydParticipant @colinlloyd53450]

OK -with the recommendations so far and the old adage "you get what you pay for" I will buy some good mill tool bits. Now the problem is: is there a basic set of tool bits that will cover a reasonable majority of the work I initially plan to do?

Bear in mind that time is not of the essence – I'm quite prepared to do many passes with a narrow tool bit that could be performed with one pass of a wider tool bit. Most of what I intend to do at present is small scale – cutting region of 2-5 mm in both width and depth; both edge and channel cuts with flat and rounded bottoms. In materials brass, copper, mild steel and probably stainless steel.

I'm guessing an HSS set comprising 2mm end mill, 4mm end mill, 2mm ball end mill, 4mm ball end mill. Beyond that – I'm all at sea: no. of flutes and type of flutes? length of mill itself? No idea.

[michael howarth 1Participant @michaelhowarth1]

I have picked up some real bargains in end mills on eBay. I only buy new items but you can get Osborne, Dormer, Presto and other good makes for a song, just buying one or two at a time.

Mick

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Three observations:

Price rises as the square of the quality (twice as good costs four times as much!)

You can get any quality you like from China, from the naffest to the very best.

Some tooling comes out of the same factory but has different brand names on it – and can have very different prices.Good brand names generally indicate quality but unknown ones don't automatically mean poor quality.

Best policy is not to put all you eggs in one basket – just buy a small selection at various price points/suppliers and decide for yourself what you get on with. This is where a show can be good – you can get second hand expensive cutters and cheap/mid price new ones and compare ho you get on.

Neil

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

A few years ago now I realised that the stuff you buy locally comes from offshore so look around and you'll find the (probably Chinese) manufacturer and cut out the middle man. With some items its worth taking the risk. An example was ER32 collets, the equivalent to US$25 locally and from China US$2 and with shipping and taxes only US$5.

The place to look is Alibaba, you'll be surprised what you can get hold of. That's where the Ebay guys and everybody else gets their stuff from.

As Neil says try it with a few smaller purchases

Pete

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Alibaba is really aimed at the trade ie minimum order quantities can be a problem. The retail sister website is Ali Express and the prices are similar but it's geared up for one-off purchases and includes a form of payment protection in case you have a problem with delivery etc. It works rather like ebay and the sellers are very careful to maintain a good feedback rating, as without that they won't be able to sell to people like us. You only complete the purchase once you have received the goods and are happy with them. If not, you can either get a refund or a replacement. Many of the products include free shipping and it's amazing how quickly this stuff turns up.

I bought quite a few parts recently from AliExpress for my milling machine CNC conversion including pulleys, belts, ballscrews, bearings, proximity switches, MPG pendant etc and it was a good experience. I even had the ballscrews machined to my drawings for $5 extra which saved me a fair bit of work (threads, keyways etc) – and they did a good job. A set of bearings got lost in the post but they sent a free replacement set. The originals turned up a week later which was a bonus.

Murray

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

Don't be too put off j by minimum quantities just ask if they do samples. I got my knockoff copy of a Deckel tool and cutter grinder that way when the minimum order was 10.

Just ask

(I'd be interested in the link to your ballscrew supplier)

Pete

[Author]

Posts