Chinese diesel heater

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

………

During my teaching career, I remember seeing an old seeing an old cobbled together piece of kit to demonstrate that glass when heated will conduct electricity. Basically a mains circuit that had a lass link that you heated with bunsen burners until it started to become molten at which point the circuit conducted electricity.. Nobody was brave enough to use it, but it obviously had been in the past.

That's how they melt glass for encapsulating HE nuclear waste, only using an induction heater. Not sure how they get it to start, needs something to conduct initially, once something is conducting you're away. Never worked on that plant.

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by Emgee on 05/01/2023 22:30:51:

Not wishing to hijack this interesting thread but perhaps a welcome break for some with all this hot air around !!!

Unless the IEE Regulations have changed since I retired, and depending on the type of electrical supply (PME,TNS, IT) to the source of your buried cable supplying power to the workshop, when using an earth rod as a path for fault current from final circuits in the remote distribution board the size of cable needs to be 16mm and the armouring should not be connected but insulated from touch in the detached building, the remote board requires the 240v AC supply to be through a DP 30ma operating current RCCB to provide shock protection.

Emgee

 

Yeah, I had to improve the earth cable when I re-did the workshop electrics… But at the time I discovered the fault it was very much a case of "this needs an earth today and I can worry about details when I rip it out to do it properly".

I fitted a new high integrity sub board in the workshop which has its supply coming from a plastic junction box where the SWA sheathing is terminated.

In turn that is fed (via 33m of 16mm² SWA) by a dedicated 4U Consumer Unit in the house with a 63A type AC RCD and 50A Type D MCB (way cheaper than an RCBO in that rating), which has its own meter tails from a service connector block, almost totally separating it from the house.

At least when Installed it all conformed to the 18th edition and passed verification and testing.

 

Ironically enough the house wiring is a mixture of 14th and 16th edition wiring, the the older 14th edition work having been executed to a much better standard.

Edited By Jelly on 06/01/2023 01:14:07

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Steviegtr on 05/01/2023 23:03:45:

Robert just a quicky probably the last post on this thread but I was slightly confused with the quote about a badly fitted (totally enclosed steel ventilated power supply) with mixed voltages. Fastened to a steel wall. It's fed from a fused 5A supply at 230v. The output for the heater is 12V D.C The heater takes approximately 9Amps for the glow plug for probably a minute. Then once fired it feeds the oil pump & fan. Everything is 12 Volts D.C. Running current is negligible All terminals are covered with a terminal cover & all the terminals have proper terminal crimps on them Facilitated with proper Compression ratchet crimpers. Please can you explain something i have obviously doing incorrectly for the last 50 years, so i might contact all the Blue chip companies to let them know there could be a problem.

Steve.

The powersupply is a component not an appliance. It needs to be in an enclosure with strain relief on the mains cable. The clip-on terminal coovers are not adequate protection on their own.
It almost certainly needs a RF filer to comply with EMC requirements (won't be helping your stray noise on the Yaesu). If it is a Meanwell their guidance actually sy that the CE (and presumably any UKCA mark) is not ment to indicate it is a standalone appliance.

Robert.

Edited By Robert Atkinson 2 on 06/01/2023 07:41:17

[JuddyParticipant @juddy]

Wow, this thread is amazing so much concern for safety from a bunch of guys that probably are using machine tools with little to no guarding or outdated safety features last reviewed in the 1960's whilst working on their own for the most part in sheds and that's ignoring the silver soldering and welding.

I think you all have bigger safety issues in your workshops than worrying about one members diesel heater install. Which I'm sure he has tested fully because he appears to be no fool and has taken time to research the install and operation of the heater, and will be satisfied that he is not going to burn his workshop down or cause a major incident.

I know most of you take your safety seriously otherwise you wouldn’t have all reached such great ages. But please look again at your own safety practises and the risks involved, I’m sure most of you can make improvements.

[Clive IndiaParticipant @cliveindia]

Posted by Steviegtr on 05/01/2023 23:03:45:

Robert just a quicky probably the last post on this thread but I was slightly confused with the quote about a badly fitted (totally enclosed steel ventilated power supply) with mixed voltages. Fastened to a steel wall. It's fed from a fused 5A supply at 230v. The output for the heater is 12V D.C The heater takes approximately 9Amps for the glow plug for probably a minute. Then once fired it feeds the oil pump & fan. Everything is 12 Volts D.C. Running current is negligible All terminals are covered with a terminal cover & all the terminals have proper terminal crimps on them Facilitated with proper Compression ratchet crimpers. Please can you explain something i have obviously doing incorrectly for the last 50 years, so i might contact all the Blue chip companies to let them know there could be a problem. Oh & thanks for becoming a youtube member & commenting on my channel Robert. Or is it George. Anyway thanks for helping grow my bad channel it all helps. Steve.

Well done Steve – it seems you've done a decent installation and acted responsibly.
You no doubt meant well in discussing it here, but sometimes it gives exposure armchair pontification.

[Clive IndiaParticipant @cliveindia]

Posted by Juddy on 06/01/2023 09:04:33:

Wow, this thread is amazing so much concern for safety from a bunch of guys that probably are using machine tools with little to no guarding or outdated safety features last reviewed in the 1960's whilst working on their own for the most part in sheds and that's ignoring the silver soldering and welding.

I think you all have bigger safety issues in your workshops than worrying about one members diesel heater install. Which I'm sure he has tested fully because he appears to be no fool and has taken time to research the install and operation of the heater, and will be satisfied that he is not going to burn his workshop down or cause a major incident.

I know most of you take your safety seriously otherwise you wouldn’t have all reached such great ages. But please look again at your own safety practises and the risks involved, I’m sure most of you can make improvements.

Well said mate.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Juddy on 06/01/2023 09:04:33:

Wow, this thread is amazing so much concern for safety from a bunch of guys that probably are using machine tools with little to no guarding or outdated safety features last reviewed in the 1960's whilst working on their own for the most part in sheds and that's ignoring the silver soldering and welding.

I think you all have bigger safety issues in your workshops than worrying about one members diesel heater install. Which I'm sure he has tested fully because he appears to be no fool and has taken time to research the install and operation of the heater, and will be satisfied that he is not going to burn his workshop down or cause a major incident.

I know most of you take your safety seriously otherwise you wouldn’t have all reached such great ages. But please look again at your own safety practises and the risks involved, I’m sure most of you can make improvements.

The issue does not just apply to model engineering workshops. Other users can find Steve's (and others) videos. Also just because old machine tools are "grandfathered" on health and safety is not a reason to compromise safety on new equipment.

Robert.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

My take on threads like this is not only the potentially dangerous message (to others that don’t have a clue of installing – particularly the ‘suitcase versions) without taking safety precautions or following the industry-accepted guide-lines, but also the total lack of understanding of the technicalities of heater operation

There was no mention of the extra ducting purchased and used. It should have been 90mm diameter. If only 75mm diameter, then the industry guidelines would have been ignored.

The totally ‘woolly ’ comments on output and use were ridiculous, from my stand-point. Here is a typical example from about page three of this thread:

Quote: “In there is all the settings. The low limit for the pump is 0.8Hz. The high limit is 8.0Hz. Then there is min & max fan speed etc. Even the 12/24v selection. So i turned my low down to 0.8HZ & raised the upper to 5.8Hz . No need really for the upper but for me the low will be better as last night even on the lowest setting my room temp kept rising.” Unquote

Yes, those settings are available with that particular heater – but not all,by a long way – and ‘fiddling’ with these settings is a clear demonstration of ineptitude on the part of the user. Inaccuracies in videos is common-place and believed (and often copied), by those that don’t know any better.

Which settings were actually used during that last sentece of the qote? 0.8Hz or 1.4Hz? I am interested to know the truth and not have to guess – as the video and the quote may not be the same…. ….Later, I believe, the lowest running setting was referred to as 1.4Hz (the usual minimum setting). So was the 0.8Hz setting changed back, claim redacted? We don’t know whether this is a simple oversight or glossed over (and hopefully not noticed by the readership?).

Fuel usage is yet another area of ridiculous claims by many with these heaters. 1.4Hz was quoted as more than sufficient to maintain a good working temperature in that particular workshop under those particular conditions – and the figure of 0.25l/h was quoted/guessed/estimated/claimed/whatever (even as much as 1.5l over a 4 hour period as being ‘good economy’. Complete tosh, of course, to those that know, but totally inaccurate (by more than 100%) to those that don’t. Over-estimating is just as misleading as under-estimating, in my book.

If the basic facts/truths cannot be provided, it makes one wonder how many other mistakes there are in the videos/write-ups/etc.

If those fuel-usage figures, quoted, are anywhere near the truth, then there must be some great deviation within the machines (wrt specified parameters). Like I often say, you should not believe everything you see and read, on the internet, as gospel. Once you know how inept some of these users are, one might wonder about other aspects – such as other videos posted on other topics. And any other claims they may make.

Would responders perhaps read my post carefully/properly, before commenting. I do happen to know what the answers should be!

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Clive India on 06/01/2023 09:34:10:

Posted by Steviegtr on 05/01/2023 23:03:45:

Robert just a quicky probably the last post on this thread but I was slightly confused with the quote about a badly fitted (totally enclosed steel ventilated power supply) with mixed voltages. Fastened to a steel wall. It's fed from a fused 5A supply at 230v. The output for the heater is 12V D.C The heater takes approximately 9Amps for the glow plug for probably a minute. Then once fired it feeds the oil pump & fan. Everything is 12 Volts D.C. Running current is negligible All terminals are covered with a terminal cover & all the terminals have proper terminal crimps on them Facilitated with proper Compression ratchet crimpers. Please can you explain something i have obviously doing incorrectly for the last 50 years, so i might contact all the Blue chip companies to let them know there could be a problem. O

. Steve.

Well done Steve – it seems you've done a decent installation and acted responsibly.
You no doubt meant well in discussing it here, but sometimes it gives exposure armchair pontification.

No it's not. Look at about 15 minutes on this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oHx68IrR-A

No enclosure and clearly no strain relief on the mains cable.

See note 6 on this typical Meanwell power supply datasheeet
https://www.meanwell.co.uk/assets/pdf/RS-100-spec.pdf
It is a COMPONENT which will be installed in a final equipment that requires it's own compliance. And yes, even a one off for your own use is legally required to be compliant (and marked with few exceptions).

Robert

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Clive India on 06/01/2023 09:34:53:

Posted by Juddy on 06/01/2023 09:04:33:

Wow, this thread is amazing so much concern for safety from a bunch of guys that probably are using machine tools with little to no guarding or outdated safety features last reviewed in the 1960's whilst working on their own for the most part in sheds and that's ignoring the silver soldering and welding.

I think you all have bigger safety issues in your workshops than worrying about one members diesel heater install. Which I'm sure he has tested fully because he appears to be no fool and has taken time to research the install and operation of the heater, and will be satisfied that he is not going to burn his workshop down or cause a major incident.

I know most of you take your safety seriously otherwise you wouldn’t have all reached such great ages. But please look again at your own safety practises and the risks involved, I’m sure most of you can make improvements.

Well said mate.

Or possibly not! The sentiment suggests the point of the negative comments has been missed.

For example, "I'm sure he has tested fully because he appears to be no fool…" is faulty logic. Steve's appearance is irrelevant, lovely chap though he is. Unfortunately, the videos are the only evidence and they don't confirm that the heater has been tested, or that it was researched.

Too much of what's plonked on the internet is higher on presentation than facts. I feel technical subjects should be the other way round, especially when risk is involved. Technology is about getting it right rather than creating an impression.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 06/01/2023 12:21:47

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 06/01/2023 12:20:59:

Too much of what's plonked on the internet is higher on presentation than facts. I feel technical subjects should be the other way round, especially when risk is involved. Technology is about getting it right rather than creating an impression.

It was ever thus…

It's something to be aware of for anyone producing content in any format, that to be perceived as credible it has to meet a certain standard of presentation, and it's been that way in various formats ever since indirect/mass communications became possible.

The internet and computers have massively potentiated that trend, as it's within reach of almost anyone to produce content with all the shiny-ness and polish of a major corporation or big academic institution, so the bar is increasingly high just to get seen.

​

As for the importance of being accurate about conveying risk and technical detail, I do agree that there's a conversation to be had about the duty of content creators to ensure what they publish is accurate and doesn't encourage or potentiate harm…

However that's an ongoing conversation for society as a whole, and even in very clear cut cases (say influencers encouraging young people to commit suicide) we haven't been able to agree on a way forward, or who owes what duty of care to who.

​​

I don't think Steve has been particularly egregious in this regard, and the oversights could easily be fixed with a quick 5 minute video "Here are some important safety features in my install I didn't mention because I thought it was common sense", which he can then link at the start of each video he's already done using YouTube's "interactive cards" feature.

As a bonus, that kind of use of YouTube's more advanced feature appears to the viewer as the "high quality" presentation, which increases credibility… As in fact does the adding a "I didn't think of this as the time" or "I need to make a correction" which is something that many of the more respected content creators do from time to time.

Edited By Jelly on 06/01/2023 13:38:30

Edited By Jelly on 06/01/2023 13:44:50

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 06/01/2023 12:20:59:

Posted by Clive India on 06/01/2023 09:34:53:

Posted by Juddy on 06/01/2023 09:04:33:

Wow, this thread is amazing so much concern for safety from a bunch of guys that probably are using machine tools with little to no guarding or outdated safety features last reviewed in the 1960's whilst working on their own for the most part in sheds and that's ignoring the silver soldering and welding.

I think you all have bigger safety issues in your workshops than worrying about one members diesel heater install. Which I'm sure he has tested fully because he appears to be no fool and has taken time to research the install and operation of the heater, and will be satisfied that he is not going to burn his workshop down or cause a major incident.

I know most of you take your safety seriously otherwise you wouldn’t have all reached such great ages. But please look again at your own safety practises and the risks involved, I’m sure most of you can make improvements.

Well said mate.

Or possibly not! The sentiment suggests the point of the negative comments has been missed.

For example, "I'm sure he has tested fully because he appears to be no fool…" is faulty logic. Steve's appearance is irrelevant, lovely chap though he is. Unfortunately, the videos are the only evidence and they don't confirm that the heater has been tested, or that it was researched.

Too much of what's plonked on the internet is higher on presentation than facts. I feel technical subjects should be the other way round, especially when risk is involved. Technology is about getting it right rather than creating an impression.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 06/01/2023 12:21:47

Sorry Mr moderator but i do not have clue on what you saying or implying. Please be more explicit.

Technology plonked. tested he appears to be no fool but faulty logic. Transposed means he is a fool. Why on earth would i want to research a heater before i bought it. Tomorrow i plan to go to Tesco to buy a new kettle, but hold on i cannot do that until i have researched it. What clap trap are you implying good sir. which part of,, I am thinking of installing a Chinese diesel heater in my workshop is anything to do with the above. So strange that most of my video's get good comments. But from this forum just a few members (3) give such negative ones. A bit odd. Sorry i know you were or some of you were in a previous life some sort of Cefax or Oracles. But really. Times have moved on. They even have colour television now & in 4K. I know i have a 55" one in the room. Am i rich no i spent most of my money on toys. Big boys toys & enjoy them. 

Before i bought my present car i did a lot of research as i always do. I wanted something reliable , fast, cheap to insure, cheap to run so i bought a new car. I researched & looked at Ferrari, Lamborgini, Porsche(had one crap) Mclaren. I settled on one that was so much cheaper & more reliable The F-Type R AWD 5.0.  £630 tax. 25MPG on a good day. A fortune to insure & stupidly fast. So i thought i had done well. At least one of my requirements was met. 200MPH , it's mine.

What has that to do with a heater well read on. I looked for something cheap to run in these days of rising costs & to save a few quid to tax the car. I found one on ebay. Win Win guys. Cheaper than the competitors & probably just as reliable so why pay Ferrari money when a Jag is just as good. 

Just an edit. For you to imply i am a fool would imply that you think you are of a higher intellect than me. Otherwise how would you know i was a fool. said the teacher to the student. So on top of the above what makes you of a higher intelect than I. RSVP.

Take care & stay safe.

Steve.

Edited By Steviegtr on 07/01/2023 03:38:44

Edited By Steviegtr on 07/01/2023 03:48:00

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Oh dear this all seems to be getting a bit overheated (sic).

Perhaps everyone could calm down a bit, before we have to lock the thread?

Neil

[SakuraParticipant @sakura]

Always a good thing to remember the old saying "when you think you are talking to a fool, first make sure he doesn't think the same!"

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Steve,

I have never said you are fool. You inferred the slur by misreading a point I made about one sentence in Juddy's post, which comes to an illogical conclusion. He said, my emphasis, 'I'm sure he has tested fully because he appears to be no fool and has taken time to research the install and operation of the heater'. No disrespect to you or Juddy, but the defence is illogical because Juddy can't be sure, because he says it's based on an appearance, and an assumption you had taken time to research the heater. I watched both videos, and didn't see any confirmation that research was done?

I suggest reading the whole thread without assuming the comments are personal attacks. The issue is the content of the video, not you personally. Make a list of the criticisms and watch the videos again. Tick the criticisms off only if you find anything in the video that addresses them. Bear in mind that viewers only know what's in the video; that's what's being judged, not your personality or experience.

I see engineering as a continuous improvement programme. It's not about individuals. Judgements are based on facts and evidence, not egoism. We're all trying to do better!
If you read threads in which I've posted, there are many examples of me being challenged and corrected. I take the comments seriously, because whatever triggered them, I improve. Or at least try to! I learn new facts, get better answers, and understand when my presentational faults cause misunderstandings. (Often.)

Be nice if everyone knew automatically what I meant rather than being stuck with what I actually said. In the real world, when I put faulty material on the forum, it's my responsibility to fix it.

I hope it's clear that I'm not on the forum to show off. Identifying as 'SillyOldDuffer' should be a strong hint that I'm fallible! Like everyone else on the forum, I bring my skills and experience, but I rely very heavily on advice given by other members, even when they trample on my self-confidence. If having mistakes exposed was unbearable, I wouldn't be on the internet at all!

I dislike opinions that aren't supported by facts and evidence. In my view anything technical should be criticised, because that's how technology improves.

It's not personal.

Dave

 

 

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 07/01/2023 10:21:13

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

A bit more searching online found a manual for Hcalory diesel heaters.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0565/0507/3707/files/Hcalory-T46-Product-Manual.pdf?v=1672823668

Compared to the Hcalory,the Vevor manual

https://images.thdstatic.com/catalog/pdfImages/ab/abc5a391-16fb-4e63-9689-e78415512b11.pdf

for all it's faults, is a paragon of virtue.
No wonder there are lots of how-to videos because the Hcalory manual is near useless.
It does contain one interesting gem though. The over-temperature switch operates at temperatures above 260 degrees. The switch appears to be on the outside of the heat exchanger. This is the surface exposed to room air. I have no idea what the normal operating surface temperature is but clearly it could be up to 260 degrees without warning or shutdown in the case of a combustion issue or reduced airflow. It is generally accepted in many industries that surfaces above 205 degrees C* can cause ignition of hydrocarbons like kerosine or diesel. Thus a Hcalory (or similar) heater running within it's non-fault envelope could ignite fuel or other flammable vapours that got into the air intake. This could be due to a leak, spillage during refuelling (even with heater off) or other activities in the heated space generating flammable vapours. Remember there is a fan sucking air nad anything else in. This appears to be a particular risk with the all in one heaters where the plastic fuel tank and filler are above the heat exchanger and air intake.

Yes, I know there are other ignition sources in a garage or workshop but they normally require direct invovment with specific actions. Most people would not combine these with activities that use flammible liquids or vapours. The heater may have been running in the background so long that it is not even thought of when working with flammables.
I also know that you could demonstate dropping diesel on a 260 degree bit of metal many times and it would not ignite. That does not mean it will never ignite.

Robert G8RPI.

* This figure is based on various sources including ASME tests. The odd value of 205, rather than conserative rounding down to 200, is due to rounding and conversion from a nominal 400 degrees F as most of the tests were made in North America. Note that this subject is part of my professional "day job" including setting international standards on ignition prevention and test proceedures for aircraft equipment.

[jimmy bParticipant @jimmyb]

I think using a welder in a wooden shed is probably more "dangerous:, but we do what we do.

Some of the responses on this the thread really must put some people off posting on here.

Jim

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Hello everyone. It’s been a while & the Chinese diesel heater is on full song again for the 2nd year. I recently sold my partly renovated GSXR 750 on ebay. The guys who came to pick it up are marine engineers. When they saw my heating system they commented on how good they were & they now fit more of them than the Webasto & ebersbatcher units due to the cost. They told me the only problems in many years of fitting them is the odd glow plug failure & the guaze in the diesel injector. They are a few coppers on ebay. Never had a main unit failure.

Anyway why the post. I found a supplier in West Yorkshire for Kerosene. It is £1.00 per litre. I just purchased 50 litres which should last me the whole winter period. I can confirm from long term use that it is a lot cheaper than electric or gas. The company for anyone near & wanting any is.

Oilswell . Look them up, they are in Brighouse. Lovely couple who run the busness. They sell every kind of oil you need. In any amount. Just take your own cans etc. Hope this helps the plathora of Chinese diesel heater users on this forum.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Forgot to say I will be doing a follow up video of the unit & all of it’s explosive downfalls. Plus it’s benefits as i see them. I will post a link when done for approval from you guys. Thanks for all the support over the last couple of years. Also the reason for selling the unfinished project is for my new project , the TVR. I am at present installing a 2 post car lift in the garage video coming soon. I just hope there will be no ,(you have imnstalled that completely wrong & need to contact your ins ???????.

Steve.

[Old SchoolParticipant @oldschool]

Our heating for the house is oil fired no gas in the village, I run a Chinese heater in the worshop using the heating oil supplied for the house boiler around 74p litre. I buy it in 1000 litres deliveries.

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