Chinese diesel heater

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 03/01/2023 09:19:14:

Posted by peak4 on 03/01/2023 02:39:44:

Posted by Steviegtr on 02/01/2023 21:55:26:

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 02/01/2023 21:28:41
…………………

Steve, Does you unit you bought have any approval or certification marks?

Robert G8RPI.

This is the bit I find interesting/amusing.

Steve's package shows a CE mark, which at face value is a valid one, and not "China Export"
Unfortunately we don't know if it's actually valid, or a misrepresentation, deliberate or accidental
The difference is explained HERE
http://www.ce-marking.org/what-is-ce-marking.html

The IIMS, as mentioned in a post above, explain what would be a valid mark, and then show the wrong one.
https://www.iims.org.uk/uk-to-accept-ce-certified-products-with-recreational-craft-directive-until-end-of-2021/

Bill

The CE mark is actually invalid. It is very subtle but the center bar of the E is too short and the C is too narrow. …

Fortunately we don't need to worry about those dreadful CE marks, which are the devil spoor of useless Brussels bureaucrats, now we've left the European Union.

Luckily for Steve, the box also has the new, super, all British UKCA mark. This replaces CE in the UK, and even though it's almost entirely based on CE rules, the UKCA mark somehow avoids offending delicate national sensibilities.

UKCA marks are still rare in the real world, I've only noticed two. There's a chance the third, on Steve's box, is the first fake …

Plus ça change

Dave

[George JervisParticipant @georgejervis86082]

Hi everyone

Just my Tuppence worth, I've use one of these to heat my workshop for over 4 years now, without any issues and found it the cheapest way, being a child of the 70s before H & S got properly intervened, I used common sense when I installed it. I have a little of grid system solar panel charges car battery which runs the diesel heater, I'm not a electrician or heating engineer just a bodger trying to stop my toys rusting, and no I don't have workshop insurance so it's my own risk,

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Hi Dave,

There's a chance the third, on Steve's box, is the first fake …

Plus ça change

I would say it is a highly probability, not just ‘a chance’.🙂

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 03/01/2023 09:19:14:

It is also worrying that the fuel flow rate can be adjusted by the user. As the fan appears to be fixed speed this will affect the mixure and thus emissions and possibly excessive internal temperaures. It's ilke changing the burner jet size on a gas heater.

I'm not sure I follow your logic.

The blown air is going around the outside of the heat exchanger, so increasing output air temperature would necessarily require the thermal input to increase relative to air flow.

The combustion air appears to be supplied via venturi effect around a high velocity atomising burner nozzle, which is presumably designed to self regulate in the 0.5Hz to 8.0Hz parameter space which the control unit will permit.

​

That said the fuel flow rate doesn't appear to be "adjusted by the user" but is buried in an installer mode to allow the thermal output to be matched to demand at setup, so that when the user tries to regulate with the normal controls it actually works effectively; This is entirely similar to other heating appliances.

​

You make a reasonable point about insurance, although I have not found mine to be particularly squeamish about me storing acetylene bottles or having a propane direct fired heater, both confirmed in writing. I am pretty confident that if I rung up and notified them I was using an indirect oil fired heater instead they wouldn't have further questions.

The outbuildings are only covered for £2000 (each) in fire or structural scenarios, but more for theft.

The underwriter has previously explained to my insurance agent that they are not really arsed what I do in outbuildings which are neither connected or proximate to the main house, because their exposure is limited.

​

I did have to do a lot of ringing about to get an insurer who would let me store acetylene tanks, and give a diagram of the property and further details.

Edited By Jelly on 03/01/2023 10:50:35

Edited By Jelly on 03/01/2023 10:51:16

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

As the fan appears to be fixed speed

Not so – the fan speed varies & the pump cycle rate also varies, getting faster as the fan speed rises.

At start up, the fan runs slowly & after the glow pin heat-up delay, the pumps starts ticking slowly. When the heat exchanger temperature sensor detects that a flame has been established, the glow plug turns off and the fan & pump speed is increased slowly until the unit is running flat out. If operating to a room temperature setpoint, as the room temeperature is approached the fan & pump slow down to reduce heat output – including shutting down completely (another cycle, which involves re-heating the glow plug after stopping the pump to ensure all fuel inside the heater is burned off, then continuing to run the fan until the heat exchanger has cooled down). My Chinese "garage heater" does not appear to operate any differently than the Webasto unit fitted as standard to a previous motorhome in this regard.

I suggest Stevie has a further look at the duct work, which appears to fall way short of the recommended solutions Webasto & Eberspacher detail in their documentation – I would expect the restrictions impostedby the current convoluted ducting applied to both inlet & outlet of the heater will be reducing performance. Chinese heater documentation is rather lacking in this regard !

I suspect that those looking for approvals etc. for these vehicle heaters to be installed as building heaters will look in vain. But as vehicle heaters they appear to have a long track record of safe, economical operation when installed and operated correctly – no reason I can see that one could not do the same in a fixed environment. Carefully installed, I would rather have one of these than an open flame, exhausting-into-the-workspace "torpedo" heater, which would come with "approvals" !

Nigel B.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by mgnbuk on 03/01/2023 11:43:03:

As the fan appears to be fixed speed

Not so – the fan speed varies & the pump cycle rate also varies, getting faster as the fan speed rises.

At start up, the fan runs slowly & after the glow pin heat-up delay, the pumps starts ticking slowly. When the heat exchanger temperature sensor detects that a flame has been established, the glow plug turns off and the fan & pump speed is increased slowly until the unit is running flat out. If operating to a room temperature setpoint, as the room temeperature is approached the fan & pump slow down to reduce heat output – including shutting down completely (another cycle, which involves re-heating the glow plug after stopping the pump to ensure all fuel inside the heater is burned off, then continuing to run the fan until the heat exchanger has cooled down). My Chinese "garage heater" does not appear to operate any differently than the Webasto unit fitted as standard to a previous motorhome in this regard.

I suggest Stevie has a further look at the duct work, which appears to fall way short of the recommended solutions Webasto & Eberspacher detail in their documentation – I would expect the restrictions impostedby the current convoluted ducting applied to both inlet & outlet of the heater will be reducing performance. Chinese heater documentation is rather lacking in this regard !

I suspect that those looking for approvals etc. for these vehicle heaters to be installed as building heaters will look in vain. But as vehicle heaters they appear to have a long track record of safe, economical operation when installed and operated correctly – no reason I can see that one could not do the same in a fixed environment. Carefully installed, I would rather have one of these than an open flame, exhausting-into-the-workspace "torpedo" heater, which would come with "approvals" !

Nigel B.

Hello Nigel. As for pipe lengths. I had a Fairline targa 34 foot motor Yacht fitted with Eberspacher unit. The pipework ran all over to each bedrooom. 1 being at the very front of the boat. 1 in the rear bedroom . 1 In the Galley & 1 outlet at the helm. Much more length of run than my 3 metre. It was factory fitted when new & ran perfectly. I had a few comments from Robert so I rechecked everything.

The fuse was still in the spur that fed the power supply. It had a 5 written on it ???. The heatproof wrap around the exhaust had not fallen off & the steel tube i fitted through the wall was still there. Maybe he watched the wrong video or skipped the boring parts, which was most of it to anyone not wanting etc.

My unit operates as per the eber & the webasto

Fan speed changes exactly as you say to suit the temperature of the heat exchanger unit. Which on the lowest pulse i have slowed slightly.

HNY Steve.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by mgnbuk on 03/01/2023 11:43:03:

As the fan appears to be fixed speed

Not so – the fan speed varies & the pump cycle rate also varies, getting faster as the fan speed rises.

At start up, the fan runs slowly & after the glow pin heat-up delay, the pumps starts ticking slowly. When the heat exchanger temperature sensor detects that a flame has been established, the glow plug turns off and the fan & pump speed is increased slowly until the unit is running flat out. If operating to a room temperature setpoint, as the room temeperature is approached the fan & pump slow down to reduce heat output – including shutting down completely (another cycle, which involves re-heating the glow plug after stopping the pump to ensure all fuel inside the heater is burned off, then continuing to run the fan until the heat exchanger has cooled down). My Chinese "garage heater" does not appear to operate any differently than the Webasto unit fitted as standard to a previous motorhome in this regard.

I suggest Stevie has a further look at the duct work, which appears to fall way short of the recommended solutions Webasto & Eberspacher detail in their documentation – I would expect the restrictions impostedby the current convoluted ducting applied to both inlet & outlet of the heater will be reducing performance. Chinese heater documentation is rather lacking in this regard !

I suspect that those looking for approvals etc. for these vehicle heaters to be installed as building heaters will look in vain. But as vehicle heaters they appear to have a long track record of safe, economical operation when installed and operated correctly – no reason I can see that one could not do the same in a fixed environment. Carefully installed, I would rather have one of these than an open flame, exhausting-into-the-workspace "torpedo" heater, which would come with "approvals" !

Nigel B.

The fan motor drivess two impellers. One for the heated air outside the combustion chamber and one inside the combustion chamber to provide air for combustion.
Going into protected settings and changing them with reference to a combustion analyser for example is bound to invalidate ny approvel. Not that these things conform to any standards in the first place….

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

As I understood the planning/Building regs a few years ago, any building, even those deemed as temporary structures, that has a fixed heating system required a planning consent. I realise that wooden built workshops are treated as temporary buildings but their designation changed once a fixed heating system was installed. Dave W

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

The fan motor drivess two impellers. …………..

Indeed it does, but at variable speeds not a constant fixed speed, which was your original comment that I corrected. That the pump speed varies with the fan speed suggests that the ECU does do something WRT to monitoring air flow & keeping fuelling appropriate. Whether using service mode altitude compensation variables to try to increase output is a good idea or not (not for me) is another issue.

Mine came with a setting dial & On/Off switch controller – almost identical to the one my Webasto came with. No displays, no ability to fiddle with settings (protected or otherwise) – just set the dial, press the On button & it worked out of the box. No exhaust smoke, no exhaust smell & no sooty marks on the wall or deposits in the exhaust pipe outlet suggest it is burning red diesel cleanly on standard, ex-works settings.

Nigel B.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 03/01/2023 15:01:06:

Posted by mgnbuk on 03/01/2023 11:43:03:

As the fan appears to be fixed speed

Not so – the fan speed varies & the pump cycle rate also varies, getting faster as the fan speed rises.

At start up, the fan runs slowly & after the glow pin heat-up delay, the pumps starts ticking slowly. When the heat exchanger temperature sensor detects that a flame has been established, the glow plug turns off and the fan & pump speed is increased slowly until the unit is running flat out. If operating to a room temperature setpoint, as the room temeperature is approached the fan & pump slow down to reduce heat output – including shutting down completely (another cycle, which involves re-heating the glow plug after stopping the pump to ensure all fuel inside the heater is burned off, then continuing to run the fan until the heat exchanger has cooled down). My Chinese "garage heater" does not appear to operate any differently than the Webasto unit fitted as standard to a previous motorhome in this regard.

I suggest Stevie has a further look at the duct work, which appears to fall way short of the recommended solutions Webasto & Eberspacher detail in their documentation – I would expect the restrictions impostedby the current convoluted ducting applied to both inlet & outlet of the heater will be reducing performance. Chinese heater documentation is rather lacking in this regard !

I suspect that those looking for approvals etc. for these vehicle heaters to be installed as building heaters will look in vain. But as vehicle heaters they appear to have a long track record of safe, economical operation when installed and operated correctly – no reason I can see that one could not do the same in a fixed environment. Carefully installed, I would rather have one of these than an open flame, exhausting-into-the-workspace "torpedo" heater, which would come with "approvals" !

Nigel B.

The fan motor drivess two impellers. One for the heated air outside the combustion chamber and one inside the combustion chamber to provide air for combustion.
Going into protected settings and changing them with reference to a combustion analyser for example is bound to invalidate ny approvel. Not that these things conform to any standards in the first place….

Hi Nigel sorry I mis quioted. Ment to Quote Jelly.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Jelly on 03/01/2023 10:50:16:

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 03/01/2023 09:19:14:

It is also worrying that the fuel flow rate can be adjusted by the user. As the fan appears to be fixed speed this will affect the mixure and thus emissions and possibly excessive internal temperaures. It's ilke changing the burner jet size on a gas heater.

I'm not sure I follow your logic.

The blown air is going around the outside of the heat exchanger, so increasing output air temperature would necessarily require the thermal input to increase relative to air flow.

The combustion air appears to be supplied via venturi effect around a high velocity atomising burner nozzle, which is presumably designed to self regulate in the 0.5Hz to 8.0Hz parameter space which the control unit will permit.

​

That said the fuel flow rate doesn't appear to be "adjusted by the user" but is buried in an installer mode to allow the thermal output to be matched to demand at setup, so that when the user tries to regulate with the normal controls it actually works effectively; This is entirely similar to other heating appliances.

​

You make a reasonable point about insurance, although I have not found mine to be particularly squeamish about me storing acetylene bottles or having a propane direct fired heater, both confirmed in writing. I am pretty confident that if I rung up and notified them I was using an indirect oil fired heater instead they wouldn't have further questions.

The outbuildings are only covered for £2000 (each) in fire or structural scenarios, but more for theft.

The underwriter has previously explained to my insurance agent that they are not really arsed what I do in outbuildings which are neither connected or proximate to the main house, because their exposure is limited.

​

I did have to do a lot of ringing about to get an insurer who would let me store acetylene tanks, and give a diagram of the property and further details.

Edited By Jelly on 03/01/2023 10:50:35

Edited By Jelly on 03/01/2023 10:51:16

The fan motor drivess two impellers. One for the heated air outside the combustion chamber and one inside the combustion chamber to provide air for combustion.
Going into protected settings and changing them with reference to a combustion analyser for example is bound to invalidate any approvel. Not that these things conform to any standards in the first place….

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 03/01/2023 15:47:23:

Posted by Jelly on 03/01/2023 10:50:16:

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 03/01/2023 09:19:14:

It is also worrying that the fuel flow rate can be adjusted by the user. As the fan appears to be fixed speed this will affect the mixure and thus emissions and possibly excessive internal temperaures. It's ilke changing the burner jet size on a gas heater.

I'm not sure I follow your logic.

The blown air is going around the outside of the heat exchanger, so increasing output air temperature would necessarily require the thermal input to increase relative to air flow.

The combustion air appears to be supplied via venturi effect around a high velocity atomising burner nozzle, which is presumably designed to self regulate in the 0.5Hz to 8.0Hz parameter space which the control unit will permit.

​

That said the fuel flow rate doesn't appear to be "adjusted by the user" but is buried in an installer mode to allow the thermal output to be matched to demand at setup, so that when the user tries to regulate with the normal controls it actually works effectively; This is entirely similar to other heating appliances.

​

You make a reasonable point about insurance, although I have not found mine to be particularly squeamish about me storing acetylene bottles or having a propane direct fired heater, both confirmed in writing. I am pretty confident that if I rung up and notified them I was using an indirect oil fired heater instead they wouldn't have further questions.

The outbuildings are only covered for £2000 (each) in fire or structural scenarios, but more for theft.

The underwriter has previously explained to my insurance agent that they are not really arsed what I do in outbuildings which are neither connected or proximate to the main house, because their exposure is limited.

​

I did have to do a lot of ringing about to get an insurer who would let me store acetylene tanks, and give a diagram of the property and further details.

Edited By Jelly on 03/01/2023 10:50:35

Edited By Jelly on 03/01/2023 10:51:16

The fan motor drivess two impellers. One for the heated air outside the combustion chamber and one inside the combustion chamber to provide air for combustion.
Going into protected settings and changing them with reference to a combustion analyser for example is bound to invalidate any approvel. Not that these things conform to any standards in the first place….

Well lets stick 6 peneth of comment into this. The big problem is that some folk with little knowledge of anything , but think they are the Oracle or Cefax of old . Basically post absolute rubbish in the hope that others will think this guy is a GOD. Unfortunately some are actually in a nursing home or institution probably deprived of there medication due to staff shortages. & spend there days trolling through the internet for information to back this up. If i want to know anything then i look at the internet which usually takes me to a youtube channel, where i can gain knowledge of said subject.

I decided to fit a diesel heater to my workshop to lessen the outgoing cost of the ever rising electricity. The above comments are the result of this. A wonderful source of information is the model engineering forum . Which is full of knowledge.

Unfortunately there are just a few members that are hell bent on criticising others which is in my mind a bad thing for the forum. Let me explain.

A bad installation Steve. A fire hazard waiting to happen. No fuse in the power supply (Doh) no heatproof on the exhaust, A exhaust through a wall with no protection. Too long pipework. Ingress & egress no forget that one.

Have you contacted your insurance company to check if it is ok. Building regs. Steel tank outside in a bund wall with a meltable solder joint to cut off supply in event of a fire.

Your CE markings are fake. Yours lying about your figures. It seems just a few members have so much knowledge that i expect one day there heads will sell combust.

You take anything on the internet & believe it. I could go on all night . But all these comments are coming from a very few members. I get a lot of P/M messages saying ignore the idiots. Which i usually do. Many people have asked me for a link to the night heater. So there is plenty of interest in this subject. I am not sure why some members on this forum want to think they are some kind of god or crop sprayer etc. or have a parrafin heater called an Alladin.

There are many that actually have these heaters fitted but do not dare comment due to the few belittling them,.

This is a sad state of affairs.

P.S they are very efficient & frugal. So far the workshop has not burned down. A Nuclear explosion has not gone off so that is a +

Steve.

Edited By Steviegtr on 04/01/2023 03:33:37

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Sorry guys & gals but i did not intend to insult anyone in particular. But we all know what trolls are & unfortunately as many forums. This one has a few.

Steve.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Steve,

I for one am not trolling. I am concerned for your safety and that others will find threads like this and copy what ahs been done or usethem to validate what is on youtube.
Youtube is not a reliable source of technical information. It's entertainment. A large number, probably the majority, of posters of videos with technical content have no idea what they are talking about.
I provide references to reliable, established sources and no that does not generally include youtube or wikipedia.

You say you have lined the exhaust outlet through the wall but that is not in your video as far as I can see.

I stand by my opinion, as a professional engineer, that the installation of the heater shown in the video you linked to is unsafe. Just because it has not caught fire or poisioned you with CO yet does not make it safe. Concorde flew for over 20 years before debris from another aircraft revealed a fatal design oversight. The accident drove changes to the design requirements for all large passenger aircraft.
I have also lost a family member due to CO posioning from a incorrectly installed heater. We think it was DIY but will never know.

Robert.

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Robert,

I commend your concern for Steve's safety, and would certainly second that he ought to have a CO monitor in there…

In fact if he doesn't have one I will happily send him one (the last time I changed mine in the house they only had bulk packs of 4 when I went to get the replacement).

 

However….

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 04/01/2023 08:14:08:

I provide references to reliable, established sources

But you didn't read them.

If you read Approved Document J it states, on page 6 under the subheading Exemptions: "Schedule 2 to the Building Regulations sets out a number of classes of buildings which are exempt from all Building Regulations requirements, including those in Part J."

Follow to Schedule 2 of the Building Regulations 2010, and you will find that Steve's workshop is such an exempted building under the grounds set out in Class 6 (Small Detached Buildings) Paragraph 1.

 

Even if you take the reasonable view that being exempted doesn't mean that complying with Approved Document J isn't a good idea, some of your assertions earlier in the thread don't actually match up with the text of the document.

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 02/01/2023 10:29:21:

As a minimum, assuming a approved outdoor fuel tank, you require:
A steel tray underneath the heater
Metallic fuel pipe with automatic fire shut-off
Fireproof lining where exhaust passes through structure
A fireproof shield or enclosure

I'm not entirely clear, and don't want to spend time checking but there are indications that installation must be perfomed by an OFTEC approved person.

Going through these:

Fuel Tanks, Para 5.3 of Approved Document J sets out that tanks of less than 90Lt capacity are not subject to regulation (and do not have to be fixed, or outdoors, nor would they be subject to the Control of Pollution (Oil Storage) Regulations 2001).

I'm not convinced that by the door is the best location unless there's an alternative means of egress from the building, (it certainly wouldn't be acceptable in a workplace or public building), but it does provide the means of ventilation that Table 10 requires for indoor fuel tanks.

​

A steel tray underneath the heater, Para 4.24 states "whilst it is not a health and safety provision, it is customary to top them [hearths] with a tray for collecting spilled fuel"; so not a requirement of the regulations, just something which is noted as being normal to many installers.

In fact, because of the mandatory bottom discharge of the flue in the burner in question, it seems inappropriate to install one when it would encourage fuel spillages to pool around the point where the hot flue exits the appliance

Para 4.25 also makes clear that as the unit isn't likely to cause the floor beneath it to exceed 100C, no hearth is required.

​

Metallic fuel pipe with automatic fire shut-off, nowhere in the approved document does it state that fuel supply piping must be metallic; Para 5.6 does state that "A way of meeting the requirement would be to install fuel pipework which is resistant to the effects of fire and to fit a proprietary fire valve system" however, we already established in Para 5.3 that the installation was exempt from these requirements.

I don't dispute that using metallic pipework would be a the gold standard for a fixed installation, but a wide range of flame retardant and fire resistant flexible hoses are available on the market.

Similarly, installing the tank and piping run such that fuel must be positively pumped from the tank, and cannot gravity discharge in the event of a ruptured fuel line, would be a valid alternative to a fire protective valve.

​

Fireproof lining where exhaust passes through structure, Para's 4.18 to 4.20 and Table 9 set out that if the flue temperature would not be expected to exceed 250C, then

"a) flues passing through combustible walls should be surrounded by insulating material at least 50mm thick.

b) provide a clearance of at least 50mm from the edge of the flue outlet to any combustible wall cladding."

Not only are the materials of construction used in the external wall of Steve's workshop non-combustible, but he has gone ahead and insulated the joint anyway.

​

A fireproof shield or enclosure, Para 4.29 makes clear that this is unnecessary as the surface temperature of the appliance is not expected to exceed 100C.
​

Cont in next post…

Edited By Jelly on 04/01/2023 17:16:39

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Cont from previous post…

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 04/01/2023 08:14:08:

I stand by my opinion, as a professional engineer, that the installation of the heater shown in the video you linked to is unsafe.

As a professional (chemical and process) engineer myself, I can sort of see where you're coming from in that there are some areas of the installation which could be better executed, but I don't agree that it's fundamentally unsafe, and we have established that it is not non-compliant above.

​

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 04/01/2023 08:14:08:

I have also lost a family member due to CO posioning from a incorrectly installed heater. We think it was DIY but will never know.

I suspect this is the nub of the issue.

Having sustained such a tragedy you are (not unreasonably) hyper-aware of the potential risks from the installation, and as such it elicits a very strong response.

I can hardly criticise you for those feelings, or for being genuinely concerned for the safety of others which as I said at the start is laudable… but I do think it may have lead to you being rather too enthusiastically critical of Steve even if for the right reasons.

​

Ultimately you and steve have different risk appetites on this issue, and it's highly unlikely that either of you will convince the other to change their mind.

That said, if I was Steve, I'd move the fuel tank out of the escape route, and fit copper microbore tube as a dip-pipe to draw off the fuel without a gravity feed, rather than taking it from the bottom… Easy modifications which will add an additional safety factor for very little effort.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Jelly,

I do not know the details of Steves building e.g. proximity to boundaries, other buildings and type construction. Regardless of other aspects and examples the fundamental basis for application of building regulations is if it is a habitable space. It's down to the building inspector in the end.

There is a separate requirement for a metallic tray if a hearth is not used. see part J 4.25

The exhaust of these heaters certainly gets well over 100 deg C. there is a requirement for liners where any part of the wall being penetrated by a flue is not non-combustible. The wall appears to be lined with a melamine faced particle board or similar. The video still shows no liner.
I try to work to the INTENT of the regulations, not look for loopholes.

Finally and NEW INFORMATION, the Vevor manual here https://images.thdstatic.com/catalog/pdfImages/ab/abc5a391-16fb-4e63-9689-e78415512b11.pdf says on page 3 under that the heater CANNOT BE APPLIED in "living room, garage, home" etc. It amkes it claear that it is intended for use in vehicles. A device for use in vehicles should be UNECE "E" marked not CE or UKCA
And that is the self contained version! This component version manual has similar limitations https://manuals.plus/wp-content/sideloads/heater-air–d3-d5-installation-manual-optimized.pdf

So THE MAKERS SAY IT IS NOT SUITABLE for heating garages and workshops.

Robert G8RPI

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 04/01/2023 18:49:15:

Jelly,

I do not know the details of Steves building e.g. proximity to boundaries, other buildings and type construction. Regardless of other aspects and examples the fundamental basis for application of building regulations is if it is a habitable space. It's down to the building inspector in the end.

There is a separate requirement for a metallic tray if a hearth is not used. see part J 4.25

The exhaust of these heaters certainly gets well over 100 deg C. there is a requirement for liners where any part of the wall being penetrated by a flue is not non-combustible. The wall appears to be lined with a melamine faced particle board or similar. The video still shows no liner.
I try to work to the INTENT of the regulations, not look for loopholes.

Finally and NEW INFORMATION, the Vevor manual here https://images.thdstatic.com/catalog/pdfImages/ab/abc5a391-16fb-4e63-9689-e78415512b11.pdf says on page 3 under that the heater CANNOT BE APPLIED in "living room, garage, home" etc. It amkes it claear that it is intended for use in vehicles. A device for use in vehicles should be UNECE "E" marked not CE or UKCA
And that is the self contained version! This component version manual has similar limitations https://manuals.plus/wp-content/sideloads/heater-air–d3-d5-installation-manual-optimized.pdf

So THE MAKERS SAY IT IS NOT SUITABLE for heating garages and workshops.

Robert G8RPI

Congratulations Robert. You got a mention on youtube. Well not really but folk may sus it was you. I really do not know where you are getting your information from. No honestly. I also take it you will not be fitting one to your workshop if you have one.

If I had asked the question . Thinking of fitting a Chinese diesel heater to my £100,000 Fairline Targa 34 boat, I wonder what your response would have been Maybe. You cannot do that it's made from glass fibre. The tank needs to be outside on a ??? pontoon. Haha. Just kidding Rob G8RPI. I love your comments. They make my day. Keep up the wonderful work you do. You keep many entertained. I am your No1 fan. Edit. I have just read your post. It appears to be a melamine face. Haha. Haha. It is steel sheeting none combustible fireproof, explosion proof,(not quite). The joins also have an Intermescent strip at each connection. You need to watch more of my vids. Look at the building of an insulated garage i did. This will educate you.. From oversite to concrete construction. Yes with 2 layers of steel reinforcing. Then erecting the structure. Have a look it's free. 

Steve M7DOZ

Edited By Steviegtr on 05/01/2023 02:17:59

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

I guess it would not be a good idea to post a video of me ripping out an old Baxi central heating boiler behind the fireplace & replacing it with this. Did this 3 years ago. Full install self done . Gas approved connection

Steve

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Well I just wasted time watching you latest video. What a lot of drivel.

No one said you needed planning permission, it was said that you should comply with building regulations.
OK on having two door so tank is not near the exit. You did then say a door led to the garage. Therefore it is not a standalone outbuilding and building regulations do apply.
The palsti tank is not just a danger in itself, it is an additonal fuel source if something else catches fire.

I already posted a link where marine surveyors were advised to whach ot for these heaters as they had caused fires.

I said the wall "looked liked" melamine fine i it steel.

You have insulated the exhaust. This is not in the instructions and could cause excessive temperatures inside the unit. Note that the installation instructions say the exhaust connection on the heater should be outside the vehicle i.e, the heater is mounted on the outr skin.

I note you have not commented on the fact Vevor say it is not suitable for use in garages or homes.

I can see nothing wrong with your boiler installtion from the photo posted. it is a quality boiler from a reputable company being use for it's intended purpose. As it was inspected by a Cometent Person it is reasonable to assume the installation complies with the installation instructions and Building Regulations.
I did exactly the same and installed new, not replacement, gas bolier and cooker including all pipework back to the meter myself. A Competent Person inspected the installation (no changes required, they actually commented on the good standard of work) made the connection to the meter and issued a certificate.

Now go get an OFTEC approved persion to inspect and certify your diesel heater and show us the certificate.

Why do you think an oil heater is different from a gas heater in terms of meeting certification, being used for the intended application and being installed and inspected by a Competent Person?

Robert.

Edited By Robert Atkinson 2 on 05/01/2023 08:53:47

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Hmm, I see a 'great debate' is in progress!

My view is closer to Robert's in that I like to see risk considered and mitigated when safety is at issue. The absence of these considerations is an issue with many YouTube offerings. Unless the risks are covered in the video, it's necessary to assume the presenter has no idea what he's doing.

Steve's videos are vulnerable to criticism because they often show what he did without explanation. The audience can't tell from the video if Steve is an expert, or a bodger, or a bit of both.

What are the risks of installing a Diesel heater?

• They're normally fitted to a vehicle, so installing one in a home is outside normal purpose. There's a risk it might break Building Regulations or invalidate the house insurance. The latter only matters if the house burns down and the insurer finds the cause was a home installation, and declines to pay out. Then the chap who wanted to save a few quid on his electricity bill suddenly discovers he's homeless, and responsible for a dangerous building. Might be liable for damage to neighbouring property too, in which case his best solution is to go bankrupt. The risk is low, but needs to be considered because the impact is so high.
• Fire. No different from other types of heater! They're all a fire risk requiring management. Fan heaters if anything gets too close to the element; oil filled radiators if they leak; overloaded electric cabling, knocked over paraffin heaters, gas leaks, spitting coal fires etc. The risk is usually mitigated by installing and operating them in accordance with the instructions and any legal requirements. Another common mitigation is to insist the heater is never run unattended. Necessary to allow for stupidity and accidents. Very unwise to keep warm by balancing an electric fan heater on the edge of a bath whilst showering, yet people do!
• Fumes. Anything that burns fuel is a Carbon Monoxide hazard. The gas is colourless, odourless and extremely toxic. Most people killed or poisoned by it have no idea during the incident that anything is wrong. Mitigated by proper ventilation, appropriate maintenance, and fitting an alarm.
• Burns. If someone gets too close… Mitigated by fixing, guards, careful positioning etc.

As heaters go, correctly installed Diesel Heaters look comparatively safe to me. I'd say safer than an electric fan heater lashed up on an extension lead and plonked in the way on a damp concrete floor in a wooden shed. The air intake and exhaust output are both outside, and should be at least a metre apart. If the power or fan fails, they turn off (or should!). The correct narrow bore fuel-pipe, fitted uphill, is unlikely to leak much. The heater only gets tiny measured spits of oil when the pump is running. Air intake is large compared with the amount of burning oil, so not much Carbon Monoxide is created, even if the exhaust leaks. The combustion chamber is untouchable inside a sealed heat exchanger, which transfers most of the heat to fan-blown air leaving the casing and exhaust relatively cool – not a fire hazard.

Nonetheless, there are a number of installation details that need to be followed, and Steve's video doesn't cover them: we're left to guess whether or not the job was done properly. Steve inadvertently sets alarm bells ringing too. For example by mentioning his walls are polystyrene insulated. As polystyrene is a fire and toxic smoke risk, it would be good to know what was done to mitigate it, or why it wasn't a concern. Unfortunately the video left me with the impression that polystyrene doesn't matter, when it does.

In the part 1 video, a lot of time is devoted to bother buying a heater from ebay and Amazon. Boring, and I suggest the time would have been much better spent on risks and mitigations rather than the pain of buying one.

I don't think it's difficult to research and explain the technical pros and cons of these heaters. Most importantly, showing that safety was considered in the videos, greatly increases confidence in the content. It shouldn't be necessary to explain key facts after publication, nor is it wise to accuse critics of being unfair when they comment. Hurtful or not, they may be making a legitimate point!

My reaction is it's not so much what's in many technical YouTube videos that offends, it's what was left out. And I believe that as with all engineering products, it's better to fix quality control issues than to get defensive and deny them! At the end of the day we're responsible for what we say and do, not the judge!

Dave

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 05/01/2023 08:52:47:

Now go get an OFTEC approved persion to inspect and certify your diesel heater and show us the certificate.

That's not how OFTEC's compliance scheme works, and if they issued a self-certificate for work they didn't carry out, they would technically be in breach of the scheme's terms.

All an OFTEC registered person could legitimately provide would be a written report detailing that in their professional opinion the works met the standards that would be expected in order to recieve a certificate under the scheme if they were qualifying works.

The correct process to certify a self install would be contacting building control to send an inspector (or to direct you to a specific third party verification service they would like you to have a report done by), who may well hold an OFTEC registration, but would be acting on behalf of building control.

​

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 05/01/2023 08:52:47:

Why do you think an oil heater is different from a gas heater in terms of meeting certification, being used for the intended application and being installed and inspected by a Competent Person?

The Gas Safety Regulations make it abundantly clear that works on gas equipment must be done by a competent person, and if done for profit such persons must hold a Gas Safe registration to prove competence, the whole thing is administered by/on behalf of the Health and Safety Executive.

In contrast registration with OFTEC as a "competent person" is actually a membership of a trade-body compliance scheme which gives limited powers to self-certify installations with respect to the building regulations. It's administered internally by a trade body, on behalf of the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities.

There is a very clear difference between the two on that basis alone.

​

When one considers the differences in both potential for harm and likelihood of a catastrophic adverse event between Gas (high harm, with serious off-premises impact, and medium-high likelihood) and Diesel (medium harm, with limited off-premises impact, and a low likelihood) when mis-managed, it becomes clear why the differing regulatory approaches have been taken and why gas is comparatively tightly controlled.

I would say the risk difference between diesel (a liquid with low volatility which can extinguish many burning and smoldering objects with, and natural gas a gas with a wide explosive limit in air, which is easy to initiate with static electricity) is common sense, but it also comes out clearly in an Quantitative Risk assessment framework.

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 05/01/2023 08:52:47:

I note you have not commented on the fact Vevor say it is not suitable for use in garages or homes.

He doesn't own one from Vevor through does he?

What Vevor say or do in the manual for their product, represents their judgement in terms of:

1. What certification/self certification efforts they believe the market will bear them undertaking on the product before it becomes commercially unviable to support the costs.
2. What avenues of potential use concern them to the extent that they wish to disclaim legal liability for them by issuing statements regards the unsuitability of their product for that purpose.

That's different from the technical suitability of the product where there's no obvious basis for it being unsuitable for fixed installation, provided such an installation is done appropriately.

It's very clear to me that Vevor has identified the potential risks of people installing them badly in buildings, and as a dropshipper with no product knowledge doesn't wish to develop the detailed guidance and fitting kit which would be needed to protect against liability for user malfeasance and localise the product to UK building regulations.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Dave,

I'm not complaining about Steve or his video particuarly, just these cheap heaters in general. I disagree that a liqud fuel fed combustion heater is fundamentally no more hazardous than an electric one. Electric heaters generally do not have a fuel source for a start. Oli filled radiators are not filled with diesel and do not have exposed parts operating at hundreds of degrees C. This MSDS indicates oil used is not flammable (flash point > 220 Deg C.) http://morrislubricants.co.uk/products/e28a734d1314b5bc77714a3282b49975.pdf

There are two fundamental issues with the cheap chinese diesel heaters:
They are not designed for this application. Even the manufacturers say not to use them in garages
The quality of design, materials and manufacture is unknown. There are reasons why the known brand heaters cost ten times as much. It's not all profit.

Robert G8RPI

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 05/01/2023 12:36:21:

Dave,

… I disagree that a liqud fuel fed combustion heater is fundamentally no more hazardous than an electric one. Electric heaters generally do not have a fuel source for a start. …

Robert G8RPI

We're not on the same page! I strongly submit that diesel heaters are safer than most other types for the reasons listed above. All heaters have a fuel source, an electric heater may not have a tank of oil, but it is connected to the National Grid.

Look critically at an ordinary fan heater. On a 13A fuse it can output at least 3kW of heat continuously. Electricity is capable of striking an arc far hotter than an oil flame. Electrical faults can start wiring fires some distance away from the heater itself. There's a tiny gap protected by a flimsy grill between people and an orange-hot element. Paper or cloth ignite if they get too close. Water can be spilled in the works, folk misuse them, and they're a trip-hazard.

In comparison a diesel heater is a paragon of virtue! But diesel heaters have other risks. The oil might leak and ignite. And although hard to light, it's energetic once it gets going. Whilst the design of a diesel heater makes it highly unlikely to get hot enough on the outside to burn flesh, poor combustion could cause Carbon Monoxide poisoning. The risks need attention, but they're not difficult to mitigate.

I'm uncomfortable too with the idea heaters should be avoided just because they're made in China. Some might be poorly made, but there's no evidence all Chinese heaters are unusually hazardous.

Beware of falling into the dangerous trap of believing Western made gear must be superior because it's reassuringly expensive whilst everything made in the Far East is rubbish. Believing that for lazy or racist reasons is the short way to going bust. Rather, its necessary to compete head to head by making good stuff faster and cheaper than everyone else. No cosy resting on a glorious industrial past. Only today and the future matter.

All too often western manufacturers justify overpricing due to low productivity by claiming 'quality'. It's a dangerous policy because customers leave en-mass when they find a cheaper alternative that works just as well as an expensive one. In manufacturing goods have to be well-made AND available AND competitively priced. It's absolutely not sufficient simply for products to be well-made. Worse, it's highly counter-productive to dishonestly claim home-grown products have a significant advantage when they don't! Fatal reputational damage is likely.

Hundreds of examples. Look what happened to the US car industry. World's most successful until foreigners started doing better. Rather than improve the product and reducing purchase prices, car makers encouraged customers to buy expensive inferior domestic vehicles for patriotic reasons. Didn't take long before most previously loyal purchasers realised this was a scam and deserted well-established makers in droves. Sad because the US was and is perfectly capable of making world beating cars, but only if the real problem is fixed honestly.

Dave

 

 

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 05/01/2023 15:25:09

[OldironParticipant @oldiron]

This whole post seems to me to be a very good reason not to post any workshop or build videos on this forum.

Seems to me even if you have a cable or pipe out of true or a seemingly non complient clamping on a workpiece it will bring down the wroth of some people on you.

Just my 2 pence worth on the subject.

regards

[Author]

Posts