Chinese diesel heater

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by lee webster on 30/12/2022 00:43:31:

I must be tired or something. My last post about buying stuff at Trago Mills should have gone in the What have you been up to today, or some such name. Time for bed before I mess up even more.

Haha. I did wonder that exact point . But then i remembered i had answered a comment by PatJ & thought it might have been a off topic skit.

Steve.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Hello again guys & gals. May I say a Happy new year to you all. I have posted a finalish video on the heater with some results of my air recirculation system. Have a look. It is definitely cheaper than electricity or gas to run. I would not have bothered posting this video on the forum but NDIY asked me to so he & others could add comments about my video's on youtube. I hope some of you enjoy them & subscribe to help my little channel grow. .NDIY. I promise i will build an engine soon for you to belittle or be amazed at.

Regards all 

Steve.

Edited By Steviegtr on 02/01/2023 04:45:14

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

stevie, if you want to keep on mentioning me in your posts, lets get things straight. You said :

NDIY asked me to

Not at all true – of course – as usual. Try reading (and actually understanding) my earlier post? I would certainly not be asking you to do anything. I am as careful as I can reasonably be when adding comments

Earlier on in the thread, you wrote:

It seems they are around 5kw flat out down to around 1kw on 1hz pump cycle.

A few rudimentary checks would have easily debunked both those claims. Is your example really ‘flat out”.at 2Hz? So obviously misleading, wrong and rubbish. You ‘seem’ to be far too trusting, of what you see and read on the internet.

The last paragraph of that post similarly relies on everyone guessing/assuming that you are actually talking about the cost of the heater, not the 12V DC source?🙂 A reasonable float battery charger is cheap enough, but a good one might be around seventy quid. The battery cost might depend on type, size and quality.

Have fun with your heater and please desist from mentioning me in your posts.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Steviegtr, That is an absolutly awful installation. In a wooden cupboard containing paint and goodness knows what else. Unisulated exhaust going through the wall and what looks like laminated MDF lining. Then there is the plastic fuel tank and line and the unenclosed mains power supply with no apparent fusing etc.

The installation of oil fired heaters is subject to the Building Regulations, specifically J1/4/5

Practical guidance is available here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1108428/ADJ_2022.pdf

As a minimum, assuming a approved outdoor fuel tank, you require:
A steel tray underneath the heater
Metallic fuel pipe with automatic fire shut-off
Fireproof lining where exhaust passes through structure
A fireproof shield or enclosure

I'm not entirely clear, and don't want to spend time checking but there are indications that installation must be perfomed by an OFTEC approved person.

Have you told your insurance company of the installation?

Robert G8RPI.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

It appears the marine industry is concerned about these too

https://www.iims.org.uk/surveyors-beware-some-diesel-heater-installations/

Robert.

[Stuart Smith 5Participant @stuartsmith5]

Robert

I don’t have one of these and don’t plan to get one, but when you say they are subject to building regulations, does this still apply to a free standing structure (ie detached garage in your garden)?

Stuart

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Good question and I'm not sure where the line is. There are conditions for "habitable spaces" but these are not clearly defined. If you are heating a space because you are in it I would say that is by default a habitable space. There are also limits on how close to a boundary or other structure you can be.

Good practide would be to comply with the regulations in anycase. Or ask your insurance comany

Robert.

[Paul RhodesParticipant @paulrhodes20292]

Posted by Stuart Smith 5 on 02/01/2023 12:21:28:

Robert

I don’t have one of these and don’t plan to get one, but when you say they are subject to building regulations, does this still apply to a free standing structure (ie detached garage in your garden)?

Stuart

Stuart,

As this is the internet, take my comments with a pinch of salt.

Some years since I last looked into the subject, but a free standing( > 1 metre distant) single story garage , mainly constructed of non flammable material, of less than 30 m sq is not subject to building warrant, though planning consent may be required. , Local rules may differ. Good sense would be to enquire of your insurer if this protects your home policy. Penny wise pound foolish may otherwise be the consequence.

I would be interested if any contributors could share the results of such an enquiry.

Paul

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Steviegtr

Illegitimi non carborundum

H

[Paul RhodesParticipant @paulrhodes20292]

Posted by Harry Wilkes on 02/01/2023 15:37:48:

Steviegtr

Illegitimi non carborundum

H

or.. Luceo non uro perhaps?

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Harry Wilkes on 02/01/2023 15:37:48:

Steviegtr

Illegitimi non carborundum

H

Haha. Thanks for that.

Steve.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by not done it yet on 11/12/2022 08:32:09:

Posted by Steviegtr on 11/12/2022 00:22:30:

Thanks for that Jon. Inspiring to know someone who has done it.

Steve.

I have done it, too.

Remember, there is no such thing as an 8kW cheap chinese diesel air heater, even though many try to argue there is! Even the 5kW versions do not deliver 5kW.

Perhaps you should make a youtube video of your installation so we can comment on it? (this in reference to one of your earlier posts, on another thread)

Maybe i did read this wrong. If so please accept my sincere apologies

Steve.

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 02/01/2023 12:37:24:

Good question and I'm not sure where the line is. There are conditions for "habitable spaces" but these are not clearly defined. If you are heating a space because you are in it I would say that is by default a habitable space.

My experience is that the building inspectors take a more nuanced view of what counts as a habitable space (which is actually a matter for the planning inspectorate to determine), and that garages and outbuildings under permitted development rights are not classified as such.

Consequently whilst only a selected proportion of the building regulations actually apply to permitted development over 30m², whilst anything under 30m² to which the building regulations applies will generally also require planning permission.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Hello,

Are these diesel heaters like the Eberspacher, which if I remember correctly have a heat exchanger ? Looking on Ebay most of them seem to have gouts of flame coming from them. Trying to heat a workshop with these, seems to be asking for trouble, let alone rusting kit.

Could someone please clarify?

Andrew..

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 02/01/2023 18:09:33:

Hello,

Are these diesel heaters like the Eberspacher, which if I remember correctly have a heat exchanger ? Looking on Ebay most of them seem to have gouts of flame coming from them. Trying to heat a workshop with these, seems to be asking for trouble, let alone rusting kit.

Could someone please clarify?

Andrew..

No Andrew that is the sort of pic they use to attract you. It is not like the floor mounted units that run on parrafin or gas. The unit is a direct copy of the Eberspacher unit. Totally enclosed in an Alluminium housing. Looks a bit like an aircooled motorcycle engine. Air is blown around the outside of that .I have the exhaust which does get quite hot glass heatproof wrapped & through a 2 1/2" steel tube in the wall. I many moons ago had a nice Fairline targa boat, which had the same installation. The exhaust exited just above the water line. Through fibreglass skin. Never a problem.

Steve.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Hello Steve,

Many thanks for that clarification. I have had more of my fair share of Eberspachers so it is well within my comfort zone.

Just a quick follow up, do the heaters come with all the necessary bits and pieces, exhausts, heat exchangers

and tanks etc.?

Andrew.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 02/01/2023 18:30:01:

Hello Steve,

Many thanks for that clarification. I have had more of my fair share of Eberspachers so it is well within my comfort zone.

Just a quick follow up, do the heaters come with all the necessary bits and pieces, exhausts, heat exchangers

and tanks etc.?

Andrew.

OK. So the heater was £179.99 delivered from ebay. Although Hcalory.com have there own website where they sell heater & coolers , i assume aimed at the motorhome trade. The prices on there are much lower than what i paid.

The box has everything in it to fully install the system. 2 lengths of hose & clips. 2 vents. The exhaust tube & silencer. The outside air tube. Lots of other clips & screws. A 10 litre fuel tank, fuel tubing & a filter + the 12v pump. I did purchase more tubing & another vent. The only other thing you will need is a 12v D.C power source. I bought a ebay 15A supply .

If you watched my video's then you would be wise to contact any seller of these for availability before buying as they are in very short supply.

Steve.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Jelly on 02/01/2023 18:06:01:

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 02/01/2023 12:37:24:

Good question and I'm not sure where the line is. There are conditions for "habitable spaces" but these are not clearly defined. If you are heating a space because you are in it I would say that is by default a habitable space.

My experience is that the building inspectors take a more nuanced view of what counts as a habitable space (which is actually a matter for the planning inspectorate to determine), and that garages and outbuildings under permitted development rights are not classified as such.

Consequently whilst only a selected proportion of the building regulations actually apply to permitted development over 30m², whilst anything under 30m² to which the building regulations applies will generally also require planning permission.

I accept that for garages and outbuildings but they are not normally occupied for any length of time. Even if built as a garage we are talking workshops which are occupied for long periods. This is similar to published guidance that says kitchens generally are habitable spaces but utility rooms are not.

it should be remebered that these units are NOT Eberspachers and are almost certainly built by companies that have no quality systems or approvals. a cracked casting can lead to CO poisoning and a fuel leak to a fire.
The fact the the fuel consumption and heatoutput are mismatched by a factor of 3 even if you assume 100% energy recovery from the diesel does not give confidence in their other claims.

Steve, Does you unit you bought have any approval or certification marks?

Robert G8RPI.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 02/01/2023 21:28:41:

Posted by Jelly on 02/01/2023 18:06:01:

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 02/01/2023 12:37:24:

Good question and I'm not sure where the line is. There are conditions for "habitable spaces" but these are not clearly defined. If you are heating a space because you are in it I would say that is by default a habitable space.

My experience is that the building inspectors take a more nuanced view of what counts as a habitable space (which is actually a matter for the planning inspectorate to determine), and that garages and outbuildings under permitted development rights are not classified as such.

Consequently whilst only a selected proportion of the building regulations actually apply to permitted development over 30m², whilst anything under 30m² to which the building regulations applies will generally also require planning permission.

I accept that for garages and outbuildings but they are not normally occupied for any length of time. Even if built as a garage we are talking workshops which are occupied for long periods. This is similar to published guidance that says kitchens generally are habitable spaces but utility rooms are not.

it should be remebered that these units are NOT Eberspachers and are almost certainly built by companies that have no quality systems or approvals. a cracked casting can lead to CO poisoning and a fuel leak to a fire.
The fact the the fuel consumption and heatoutput are mismatched by a factor of 3 even if you assume 100% energy recovery from the diesel does not give confidence in their other claims.

Steve, Does you unit you bought have any approval or certification marks?

Robert G8RPI.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

I think i know how to alter the heat settings now , after looking on the Hcalory site & having a good read of the comprehensive manual that came with it. The defaul factory setting for the diesel heaters is min 1.4 Hz Max 5.4Hz.

The heater & i assume all you guys that have then can do the same has an engineering mode, I believe most of them have the same code. press the ok button until a lock appears. then enter 1688 just do one digit then ok to the next digit etc.

In there is all the settings. The low limit for the pump is 0.8Hz. The high limit is 8.0Hz. Then there is min & max fan speed etc. Even the 12/24v selection. So i turned my low down to 0.8HZ & raised the upper to 5.8Hz . No need really for the upper but for me the low will be better as last night even on the lowest setting my room temp kept rising.

So hopeful I will have a better control.

I did watch youtube to death before i got the heater. No one had mentioned the engineering mode. But most of them only come with a few sheets of loo paper as instructions. For anyone who has one then this is how to get in to the Menu.

Steve.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by Steviegtr on 02/01/2023 21:55:26:

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 02/01/2023 21:28:41
…………………

Steve, Does you unit you bought have any approval or certification marks?

Robert G8RPI.

This is the bit I find interesting/amusing.

Steve's package shows a CE mark, which at face value is a valid one, and not "China Export"
Unfortunately we don't know if it's actually valid, or a misrepresentation, deliberate or accidental
The difference is explained HERE
http://www.ce-marking.org/what-is-ce-marking.html

The IIMS, as mentioned in a post above, explain what would be a valid mark, and then show the wrong one.
https://www.iims.org.uk/uk-to-accept-ce-certified-products-with-recreational-craft-directive-until-end-of-2021/

Bill

[Pete CordellParticipant @petecordell95786]

The setting you are changing i think are the Elevation settings for the mixture

Google Diesel Heater Elevation Settings, then goto images for some charts

Different pumps and *kw heaters require different settings

Most pumps seem to be 0.22ml

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Pete Cordell on 03/01/2023 06:43:33:

The setting you are changing i think are the Elevation settings for the mixture

Google Diesel Heater Elevation Settings, then goto images for some charts

Different pumps and *kw heaters require different settings

Most pumps seem to be 0.22ml

‘Fraid you are out by an order of magnitude!

It seems to be accepted that these heaters lose about 600W through the exhaust. That, I think, is the reported recoverable heat which pertains to a “5kW” heater at full power (so would be somewhat less at reduced output).

Even the lesser amongst us should be able to work out the available energy in the fuel at 0.8Hz pump rate.

Crazy to weaken the combustion mixture by so much – thereby losing a greater amount of energy with the excess exhaust gases. 1.4Hz to 0.8Hz is in excess of a 40% reduction in fuel – with likely less than a 5% reduction in combustion air? Someone, I think, needs to realise these settings are not just arbitrary figures grabbed out of thin air.

These heaters (or many of them) are unlikely to be CE approved – or why would Trading Standards be confiscating (or whatever they do) so many units at the point of importation, recently?

Plot does not thicken, but the truth will come out as official (not hearsay or conspirational), now that the authorities have taken some long-awaited action.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by peak4 on 03/01/2023 02:39:44:

Posted by Steviegtr on 02/01/2023 21:55:26:

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 02/01/2023 21:28:41
…………………

Steve, Does you unit you bought have any approval or certification marks?

Robert G8RPI.

This is the bit I find interesting/amusing.

Steve's package shows a CE mark, which at face value is a valid one, and not "China Export"
Unfortunately we don't know if it's actually valid, or a misrepresentation, deliberate or accidental
The difference is explained HERE
http://www.ce-marking.org/what-is-ce-marking.html

The IIMS, as mentioned in a post above, explain what would be a valid mark, and then show the wrong one.
https://www.iims.org.uk/uk-to-accept-ce-certified-products-with-recreational-craft-directive-until-end-of-2021/

Bill

The CE mark is actually invalid. It is very subtle but the center bar of the E is too short and the C is too narrow. Also it should have had a energy rating label. We know any energy rating given will be false as the power rating and fuel consumption don't add up.
It is also worrying that the fuel flow rate can be adjusted by the user. As the fan appears to be fixed speed this will affect the mixure and thus emissions and possibly excessive internal temperaures. It's ilke changing the burner jet size on a gas heater.
I'm certain if anyone asked their insurance company about this they would equire the installation to be done or checked by a Competent Person. Practically that means OFTEC registered.

Steve, do you want to ask your insurance company and see what they say?

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

As we have gone into H&S mode. Dangerous would be one of these This one is in AUS home of the bush fire.

Last saw one operating in winter 1972 ish in a scrapyard shed and glowing a nice cherry red running on sump oil. Even at 19 I knew it was proper dangerous.

Robert,

I think the practical answer will be if Steves workshop burns down and the Brigade find the remains of the heater at the seat of the fire any insurance will be void. They always look for a get out and these things are a sitting duck.

If this was America and someone followed a video on Utube and got a fire then being the country that sue Mcdonalds because there was no warning that the coffee was hot they would probably sue.

 

BTW In my neck of the woods temporary structures such as sheds and conservatories become part of the habitation when a permanent heating source is added such as a central heating radiator. Portable heaters either plug in or self contained are OK.

Edited By Dave Halford on 03/01/2023 10:24:10

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