Cheap EV’s on the way

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

I hope the Chinese cheap EVs are better built than their cheap ICE cars and motorbikes. The latter in particular are woeful in the long run and while the cars have made progress in recent years, are still far off Toyota standard in the long run too. It is one thing to appear to be well built when new, remaining reliable for the longterm is another.

Re copper running out, I read elsewhere that the silver needed for making solar panels will run out by 2050 at the current rate. But who knows what will be happening by then?

[Vic]

On Vic Said:

On derek hall 1 Said:

 

 

Makes one think a little more deeper about the supposed green credentials of EV’s doesn’t it?

Regards to all

No, not at all. I care more about local pollution, don’t you?

Nice try on the scaremongering but the projected lack of copper by EV haters has already been largely debunked.

https://www.shapesbyhydro.com/en/material-properties/how-we-can-substitute-aluminium-for-copper-in-the-green-transition/

 

Hi Vic,

Yes I do care about the environment thank you very much!

My point is I quoted from a respectable source re potential copper shortages.

What about the rare earth material, cobalt and, lithium etc that has to be extracted often in Countries that are unfriendly to the “west” and apparently using child labour?

The recycling and or disposal of old EV batteries needs to be addressed.

EV’s taken over the whole lifecycle are not as green as made out to be. There are many reputable sources explaining this dilemma.

I concede though that in the future EV’s may be “better” for the environment, but at the moment they are only a partial fix in my opinion.

It is ironic that China is one of the most polluting Countries in the world, yet export loads of EV’s…..!

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Vic said:

“I also read a while back that at present 93% of UK EV drivers are charging at home.”

That is because only people who CAN charge at home are buying EVs. Misleading with statistics.

Not getting at you but I also doubt the facts behind “Apparently 65% of motorists have their own drive and a further estimated 8% have access to off street parking”
Certainly weher we live (a New Village built mainly in the 70’s) 65% of people don’t have their own drive. Maybe 20% from a dog walk audit. Many have garages but most of those are separate from the homes and without power. Getting a 3 phase supply connected is very expensive and highly unlikely to be coordinated beween residents. There is some “off-road parking” but again remote from supplies and not allocated so you could put a charger in and find a ICE car parked there. Charging in a attached or integral garage has it’s own issues.
We are OK here for parking generally but there are many places where finding any spot is a challenge never mind one with charging access. Additionally theft of charging cables is a growing issue.
Cost? Wait until we are stuck with RV’s and then watch the cost of charging go up. Remember those “smart” charger laws? They will be charging your bank account not just your car.

Again I’m not anti EV just a realist. I remember the interest in EV’s in the late 70’s and had a tour of Chloride facilities in 1979 as part of a engineering competion prize. I actually drove a bus with Sodium-Sulphur batteries. Thats a scary combination. (the elements, not me driving a bus, well maybe both 🙂 )

Robert.

[derek hall 1]

On derek hall 1 Said:

On Vic Said:

On derek hall 1 Said:

 

 

Makes one think a little more deeper about the supposed green credentials of EV’s doesn’t it?

Regards to all

No, not at all. I care more about local pollution, don’t you?

Nice try on the scaremongering but the projected lack of copper by EV haters has already been largely debunked.

https://www.shapesbyhydro.com/en/material-properties/how-we-can-substitute-aluminium-for-copper-in-the-green-transition/

 

Hi Vic,

Yes I do care about the environment thank you very much!

My point is I quoted from a respectable source re potential copper shortages.

What about the rare earth material, cobalt and, lithium etc that has to be extracted often in Countries that are unfriendly to the “west” and apparently using child labour?

The recycling and or disposal of old EV batteries needs to be addressed.

EV’s taken over the whole lifecycle are not as green as made out to be. There are many reputable sources explaining this dilemma.

I concede though that in the future EV’s may be “better” for the environment, but at the moment they are only a partial fix in my opinion.

It is ironic that China is one of the most polluting Countries in the world, yet export loads of EV’s…..!

There seem to be lots of respectable organisations spreading misinformation and downright lies about EV’s. It’s quite comical what some will believe. I don’t suppose you were bothered about mining when it was used to provide the materials for your car, laptop, mobile phone etc, etc?

Much of what you’ve said is covered in this document:

https://media.rac.co.uk/documents/faircharge-little-book-of-ev-myths-439716

 

[Hopper]

On Hopper Said:

I hope the Chinese cheap EVs are better built than their cheap ICE cars and motorbikes. The latter in particular are woeful in the long run and while the cars have made progress in recent years, are still far off Toyota standard in the long run too. It is one thing to appear to be well built when new, remaining reliable for the longterm is another.

Re copper running out, I read elsewhere that the silver needed for making solar panels will run out by 2050 at the current rate. But who knows what will be happening by then?

You obviously didn’t look at my first post. 🙄 The cheap EV in the video link I provided seems to be well designed and well made. But why wouldn’t it? China has been making Audi’s, BMW’s and Mercedes for years. Here’s the link again.

https://youtu.be/UGgo_wpV1ug?si=cLZKcJnmBjeL7smk

[Robert Atkinson 2]

On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

Vic said:

“I also read a while back that at present 93% of UK EV drivers are charging at home.”

That is because only people who CAN charge at home are buying EVs. Misleading with statistics.

Not getting at you but I also doubt the facts behind “Apparently 65% of motorists have their own drive and a further estimated 8% have access to off street parking”
Certainly weher we live (a New Village built mainly in the 70’s) 65% of people don’t have their own drive. Maybe 20% from a dog walk audit. Many have garages but most of those are separate from the homes and without power. Getting a 3 phase supply connected is very expensive and highly unlikely to be coordinated beween residents. There is some “off-road parking” but again remote from supplies and not allocated so you could put a charger in and find a ICE car parked there. Charging in a attached or integral garage has it’s own issues.
We are OK here for parking generally but there are many places where finding any spot is a challenge never mind one with charging access. Additionally theft of charging cables is a growing issue.
Cost? Wait until we are stuck with RV’s and then watch the cost of charging go up. Remember those “smart” charger laws? They will be charging your bank account not just your car.

Again I’m not anti EV just a realist. I remember the interest in EV’s in the late 70’s and had a tour of Chloride facilities in 1979 as part of a engineering competion prize. I actually drove a bus with Sodium-Sulphur batteries. Thats a scary combination. (the elements, not me driving a bus, well maybe both 🙂 )

Robert.

The 93% was a fact. What you said is misleading, Not all motorists that bought an EV can charge at home. Several newspaper articles have published articles about how difficult it has been to charge an EV without home charging. Why anyone would buy an EV under these circumstances is perhaps a little confusing but there you are.

You don’t need a three phase supply to charge an EV, it can be done with a 13A socket. Look up “Granny Charging”.

 

And the percentage is going to increase.

 

[VicParticipant @vic]

To be clear. I don’t (Yet) own an EV. And I don’t care whether you buy one or not. What I do find amusing is the amount of anti EV nonsense I see posted, and if I see it I will call it out. I’d do the same if it was another completely different topic.

BEV’s obviously aren’t a perfect solution but it’s better than petrol for the local environment where the public have to breath in the fumes, and a hell of a lot better than Diesel.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Don’t ignore that 25% of households don’t have a car and that could increase with better public transport, more sensible commuting patterns. This probably helps with the proportions not needing charge-at-home facility.
Also people used to work and shop close to home, until car ownership rose. habits can change and adapt. Since a high percentage of trips are only a few miles the car can be charged off on-house solar much of the time.

[HowiParticipant @howi]

Think 10 minute cities, that’s what globalists want as it restricts citizens travel other than by public transport.Once contained you can be controlled.

EV’s are a ticking timebomb waiting to explode.

If we all went over to EV’s the government would loose billions in tax revenue from petrol/diesel, the move topay per mile will sort that out, EV’s not so economical now are they?

Once we are fully relient on electricity then they can charge what they like for it – what other choice would you have.

What is the life of an EV compared to ICE vehicles?

once the battery warranty runs out or capacity drops to 50/60% no one will want to buy second hand so will have to be scrapped – this is happening now with 5-6 year old EV’s.

The full impact of EV’s on owners has not yet been realized.

 

[Howi]

On Howi Said:

Think 10 minute cities, that’s what globalists want as it restricts citizens travel other than by public transport.Once contained you can be controlled.

EV’s are a ticking timebomb waiting to explode.

If we all went over to EV’s the government would loose billions in tax revenue from petrol/diesel, the move topay per mile will sort that out, EV’s not so economical now are they?

it hasn’t happened yet, so yes NOW they are. Road pricing could be introduced for all cars.

Once we are fully relient on electricity then they can charge what they like for it – what other choice would you have.

Solar panels. Up to Free MPG if you’re fortunate to have them.

What is the life of an EV compared to ICE vehicles?

Very much longer from what I’ve read.

once the battery warranty runs out or capacity drops to 50/60% no one will want to buy second hand so will have to be scrapped – this is happening now with 5-6 year old EV’s.

Fake news. Most if not all EV makers offer an 8 Year warranty on their batteries. There are 10 year old Nissan leafs still on the road with the original battery.
MG are now offering a lifetime warranty on the battery and other manufacturers are expected to do the same.

The full impact of EV’s on owners has not yet been realized.

 

No answer to that.

[Bazyle]

On Bazyle Said:

Don’t ignore that 25% of households don’t have a car and that could increase with better public transport, more sensible commuting patterns. This probably helps with the proportions not needing charge-at-home facility.
Also people used to work and shop close to home, until car ownership rose. habits can change and adapt. Since a high percentage of trips are only a few miles the car can be charged off on-house solar much of the time.

At last some sensible input. When I was a young kid most households where I lived didn’t have a car. People largely walked or went by bus or train. As personal transport inevitably changes in the coming years so will habits.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Seen on FaceBook. I can understand the sentiment as I don’t like the cost of all the EV’s I like the look of at the moment. Still, it’s no excuse to make stuff up.

[Howi]

On Howi Said:

Think 10 minute cities, that’s what globalists want as it restricts citizens travel other than by public transport.Once contained you can be controlled.

….

 

Once we are fully relient on electricity then they can charge what they like for it – what other choice would you have.

Who are these dastardly Globalists? The Illuminati? The Elders of Zion? The lizard people in human skins? The paedo cartel in the basement of a pizza shop in Cleveland, OH? Elon Musk? Mark Zuckerberg? Brussels? The Chinese Communist Party flooding the world with cheap minilathes and now EVs?

Or is it Joe and Joeline Everage-Consumer who buy almost every household item from China, jet off for holidays in the Maldives with their French luggage, Italian sunglasses and Euro designer label clothes made in Bangladesh sweat shops, drive a European car, drink Australian wine, eat Chillean oranges with their Argentinian steak and sit around and post on the global internet using Taiwanese microchips made from precious metals dug in the Congo for computers and phones assembled in China and transported on ships made in South Korea?

If the government wanted to contain the citizens, they could do it right now by parking four semi-trailers across the M1 with half a dozen police officers standing by. Let’s not get too carried away.

Likewise, when “they” have everyone reliant on petrol (or diesel fuel) “they” can charge what they like for it, and obviously do.Have you looked at the quarterly profit reports of the oil companies anytime in the past 100 years?

[Howi]

On Howi Said:

 

What is the life of an EV compared to ICE vehicles?

 

[Chris Crew]

On Chris Crew Said:

… in line with Toyota’s new power unit that they are developing in preference to any electric vehicle.

 

Yes it is food for thought that an industry leader like Toyota says they are taking their focus off EVs and betting on hydrogen engines for the future. What do they know that nobody else seems to?

[Gary Wooding]

On Gary Wooding Said:

Currently, approx 60% of the price of petrol or diesel goes to the government as tax. When we all switch to EVs, where do you think the government will turn to retrieve the lost revenue?

Everything I’ve read has suggested that road pricing will be the way forward. The concept has been touted for many years as being fairer (if introduced) than the current vehicle excise duty. I have to agree. Although high mileage drivers also pay more tax in fuel duty. There’s no way round paying tax one way or another whether it’s transport or anything else the government choose.

 

[Hopper]

On Hopper Said:

On Chris Crew Said:

… in line with Toyota’s new power unit that they are developing in preference to any electric vehicle.

 

Yes it is food for thought that an industry leader like Toyota says they are taking their focus off EVs and betting on hydrogen engines for the future. What do they know that nobody else seems to?

Toyota can’t compete with Tesla, let alone Chinese EV’s. They have more debt than some countries. For several years now they have been swinging back and forth between their mythical solid state batteries and Hydrogen in press releases. They don’t seem to know what they’re doing. Meanwhile.

 

[mgnbuk]

On mgnbuk Said:

EVs are a partial answer to the oil problem.

No they are not. EVs may be a partial solution local air pollution issues directly attributable to ICE exhaust emissions, but that is about it.

Basically you won’t get Evs at all without a substantial oil input – the batteries require a product called needle coke, which is an oil product. The extensive HV cabling insulation is an oil product. They have gearboxes that require oil for lubrication. The steel used to produce them is refined in arc furnaces – the graphite electrodes used to produce the arc are an oil product. The semicinductors for motor control are processed through furnaces insulated with graphite insulation – oil product. No oil – no EVs !

…

Nigel B.

Nigel’s list is of oil products used during manufacture, and ignores the carbon burnt whilst an IC vehicles engine is running.  The latter is massive – about 20% of all Carbon Dioxide dumped into the atmosphere.   In comparison, the amount of oil needed to make an EV is tiny.  And oil not burned by IC engines becomes available for making plastics, fertilizers and a many other valuable products.

A chemist would raise an eyebrow at the assertion that only oil can be used to make graphite!  True most of it is made from oil at the moment, but a proportion is made from coke made from coal, and it could be made from vegetables.

But Nigel raises a good point: what happens to our world when oil ceases to be cheap?   I fear the assumption that the world’s natural resources are infinite is so deeply embedded as to have become holy writ.   Head in the sand stuff, actually the world is changing under our feet.  Alternatives have to be found, and I’m afraid the old-school are more hindrance than help.

Alas for small-c conservatives who can’t bear the demise of internal combustion and coal electricity, EVs have gone from being an expensive option with many shortcomings, to breaking into the inexpensive car market.   Early days, but I think in 5 years time more Brits will buy EVs than ICs.    In the same way, expect recycling and other ‘green’ measures to kick in.   Not because ‘tree-huggers’ wish it, but because mineral reserves are depleting across the board, and the whole planet has been explored.  Sadly for those who hate change,  rising costs change everything.

Wait and see!

Dave

[VicParticipant @vic]

Of course it’s not just air pollution. How many times have we had oil spills? This is a recent one.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

VIC,

Idin’t say the 63% charge at home was untrue. I said it was misleading becuase the ability to charge at home is a major factor in deciding to buy an EV AT THE MOMENT. Soon there will be NO CHOICE.

The Audi and BMW factories in China build cars FOR SALE IN CHINA.

[Vic]

On Vic Said:

On derek hall 1 Said:

On Vic Said:

On derek hall 1 Said:

 

 

Makes one think a little more deeper about the supposed green credentials of EV’s doesn’t it?

Regards to all

No, not at all. I care more about local pollution, don’t you?

Nice try on the scaremongering but the projected lack of copper by EV haters has already been largely debunked.

https://www.shapesbyhydro.com/en/material-properties/how-we-can-substitute-aluminium-for-copper-in-the-green-transition/

 

Hi Vic,

Yes I do care about the environment thank you very much!

My point is I quoted from a respectable source re potential copper shortages.

What about the rare earth material, cobalt and, lithium etc that has to be extracted often in Countries that are unfriendly to the “west” and apparently using child labour?

The recycling and or disposal of old EV batteries needs to be addressed.

EV’s taken over the whole lifecycle are not as green as made out to be. There are many reputable sources explaining this dilemma.

I concede though that in the future EV’s may be “better” for the environment, but at the moment they are only a partial fix in my opinion.

It is ironic that China is one of the most polluting Countries in the world, yet export loads of EV’s…..!

There seem to be lots of respectable organisations spreading misinformation and downright lies about EV’s. It’s quite comical what some will believe. I don’t suppose you were bothered about mining when it was used to provide the materials for your car, laptop, mobile phone etc, etc?

Much of what you’ve said is covered in this document:

https://media.rac.co.uk/documents/faircharge-little-book-of-ev-myths-439716

 

Vic,

Trying to keep this civil, but I am not scaremongering, just simply quoting an interesting article!

I think I would rather get my facts from a respectable engineering institution than than RAC to be honest.

Why would a recognised Engineering Instution spread misinformation and downright lies about EV’s? Engineers deal with facts, the Guardian and the press/media make stuff up to suit their own agenda.

I made the original comment regarding copper in good faith as I had no idea, and I bet you didn’t either! I certainly dont think its comical that we have to continually dig holes in our planet to either extract stuff that’s finite or bury stuff we don’t want or need anymore.

I see you said that you care more about local pollution…..no, I care about global pollution.

Vic, I am not anti EV! I am just expressing some wariness about the supposed green credentials that EV’s are supposed to have that’s all.

Please dont accuse me of scaremongering.

[Robert Atkinson 2]

On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

 

The Audi and BMW factories in China build cars FOR SALE IN CHINA.

And are they any different?

But not anymore. This one is sold in Europe and I suspect soon many more.

https://uk.motor1.com/news/715437/european-american-market-cars-made-in-china/

[VicParticipant @vic]

derek,

I’ve known for some years that Aluminium is a viable alternative to copper. I replaced an oven in my old property that had aluminium mains cables. It (apparently) was not uncommon at the time due to the high cost of copper.

Tesla placed an order in 2017 for 3000km of Aluminium cables for the Tesla Model 3.

A couple of months ago I read that the National Grid say they can increase capacity by using Aluminium for overhead cables.

I have absolutely no idea why any organisation would spread misinformation but there are it seems many sad people that don’t like the concept of EV’s and it only takes one or two to take advantage of their position.

The RAC apparently get most of their data from the Government.

Theres not much I can do about global pollution so as I’m not directly affected by it I try not to think about it. I do care though about breathing in the toxic fumes from Diesel cars in the UK. I think the Government seriously let down the British public but not putting a ban on the sales of new ones much earlier.

Not in reply to you, but unless there are some quite young ones on here I doubt many of us will be forced to buy an EV. I’m sure there will be many second hand ICE vehicles for sale for some years to come if folks really hate saving money that much.

 

 

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

I’m going to ignore this thread now

[derek hall 1]

On derek hall 1 Said:

 

In the latest copy July/August.

 

I quote from the article ……”New findings show that between 2018 and 2050 the world will need to mine 115% more copper than has been mined in all of history since 2018 just to meet current copper needs.”

 

This sounds a bit odd the way it’s written. This isn’t an old projection from 2018 is it?

[Author]

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