Cheap EV’s on the way

[VicParticipant @vic]

I read recently that a Vauxhall Corsa Hybrid, hardly a luxury car, now has a list price of over £40,000. 😮

This just popped up on my YT feed. A Chinese BEV for $11,000. It’s not big but seems to be well made.

https://youtu.be/UGgo_wpV1ug?si=tit7gJj6xUqv0l7g

[Mike HurleyParticipant @mikehurley60381]

As a further incentive to help prop-up the chinese economy, I gather from april a new tax (Vehicle Excise Duty ) of £410  will be payable on ‘Luxury’ cars i.e. those priced over £40k, which appears to include pretty well most new ‘ordinary’ electric / hybrids, like the vauxhall mentioned above

 

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

It’s a bit unfair to be comparing the BYD price of $11,000 to the hybrid Vauxhall Corsa at £40,000.  Hybrids are bound to be more expensive, requiring both an electrical and an IC power source. The Vauxhall price quoted is, I assume retail, while the BYD price quoted seems likely to be the ex factory price in quantity.  It might be better to compare it to something like a Fiat 500 electric which retails at about 20,000 euro, which would be somewhere near the retail price of an imported BYD.

Russell

[Mike Hurley]

It was just an observation. I wasn’t making a direct comparison between the two vehicles.

On Mike Hurley Said:

As a further incentive to help prop-up the chinese economy, I gather from april a new tax (Vehicle Excise Duty ) of £410  will be payable on ‘Luxury’ cars i.e. those priced over £40k, which appears to include pretty well most new ‘ordinary’ electric / hybrids, like the vauxhall mentioned above

 

There is already luxury car duty on cars over £40,000. It’s currently £390 extra on top of the normal duty for years 2-6. The duty is payable based on the vehicles list price when new. So even if you buy a used three year old vehicle you will still pay the extra for another three years if it was over £40K when new.

[Russell Eberhardt]

On Russell Eberhardt Said:

Hybrids are bound to be more expensive, requiring both an electrical and an IC power source.

Russell

Yes agreed. Given the complexity over and above that of ICE and BEV’s I can only assume people buy them because of the manufacturers claimed mileage. I certainly wouldn’t want one outside of warranty given the number of things that can go wrong. From reports in the media they are also far more likely to catch fire than any other type of vehicle.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I suspect cheap EVs will be available from China until the auto industry in the west is destroyed, then watch out

[VicParticipant @vic]

Tesla are still planning on building a $25,000 BEV, and the Chinese are planning to build cars in the west to get round import tariffs. Having said all that, many Audi, BMW, Volkswagen and Mercedes models have been manufactured in China for years. Those companies just didn’t pass on the savings?

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

Personally, I wouldn’t have an electric car if they were giving them away, although I did buy the wife a mild hybrid and that’s enough. There was an item on YouTube about a new ‘compressed air’ engine which has been developed by Stellantis (GM-Peugeot) and which, so they are saying, runs on conventional fossil fuel, does 120 miles to the gallon and eliminates 99% of greenhouse gas emissions. Apparently, this company is about to abandon any further development of their EV’s, which doesn’t bode well for Ellesmere Port, and will have this new ICE on the market by 2030. How this will circumvent the government’s diktat that ICE vehicles cannot be sold after 2035 I can’t say but it seems to be in line with Toyota’s new power unit that they are developing in preference to any electric vehicle.

Someone else can do the math but it has always struck me that if, with all the vehicles on the road at any given time in this country alone and they were all electric, there would be not enough power available to keep them going. To force everybody into an electric, to me, is just a nonsense. I am just grateful that, at my age, my seven year old Volvo V90 D5 will see me out and I won’t have to trouble myself with all this EV nonsense!

[Chris Crew]

On Chris Crew Said:

 

Someone else can do the math but it has always struck me that if, with all the vehicles on the road at any given time in this country alone and they were all electric, there would be not enough power available to keep them going. To force everybody into an electric, to me, is just a nonsense. I am just grateful that, at my age, my seven year old Volvo V90 D5 will see me out and I won’t have to trouble myself with all this EV nonsense!

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

As a member of the Institute of Engineering and Technology, I get a magazine every month or two.

In the latest copy July/August there is a very interesting article about the fact that “copper mining cannot keep up with the ramp up of EV”. I am not able to provide a link (maybe somebody else can).

I quote from the article ……”New findings show that between 2018 and 2050 the world will need to mine 115% more copper than has been mined in all of history since 2018 just to meet current copper needs.”

“The largest copper mine in the world is in Escondida in Chile that produced 882,100 tonnes in 2023. To meet the copper needs as many as 6 new large copper mines must be bought on annually over the next several decades.”

 

Makes one think a little more deeper about the supposed green credentials of EV’s doesn’t it?

Regards to all

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

That NG website is full of misinformation. For example “Currently in the US, there are almost as many EV charging ports as there are gas stations.” First this has nothing to do with the UK. Second it could just indicate a decline in the number of filling stations. Most importantly 1 charger does not equal 1 filling station. Even with a high power charger a 80% charge of an EV will take around 20 minutes. Even a small filling station with 4 double sided pumps an allowing 5 minutes per fill can “charge” 16 cars in that time.
Also a lot of the chargers in the US will be Tesla only or not high speed.

N.G. Also mention “Smart” chargers. Smart must good right? Depends on who you are. Smart in this casemeans the electricity supplier can control when you can charge your car. This is due to limitations in supply and network capacity. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/regulations-electric-vehicle-smart-charge-points

Clearly the supply infrastructure cannot handle the extra load particuarly at the local level. The supply in my street won’t allow a 32A 3 phase supply to even half of the houses.

For generation they seem to be relying on incresed wind and solar energy. Tought luck if you want to charge your car on a calm night…

Robert
Not anti-EV just a realist. I own a Plug in Hybrid EV and my regular commute is all electric.

[Chris Crew]

On Chris Crew Said:

…

To force everybody into an electric, to me, is just a nonsense.

…

Chris mistakenly assumes that he has a choice!   Two problems are closing like a nutcracker on humanity:

1. Only 30 about years worth of oil left in the ground.  Although humanity has come to rely on oil remaining cheap forever, the writing is already on the wall.   Petrol won’t disappear overnight, but we can guarantee that by 2050 it will be too expensive for ordinary motoring.   The party is nearly over so what next for vehicles?  The answer isn’t oil – mankind burnt it!
2. Burning huge quantities of Oil, Natural Gas, and Coal is changing our climate for the worse.  Future weather will be more turbulent, causing food shortages, large-scale forced emigrations and increased conflict.   Forty years of evidence has confirmed that the climate science is correct.   Deniers wake up –  wishful thinking won’t fix anything.

EVs are a partial answer to the oil problem.   They reduce greenhouse gas emissions and allow British cars to run on a limitless supply of free sunshine.   No need to import costly oil from abroad, or to kill a few asthmatic children by burning it in city traffic jams.   Main problem is EVs lack stamina, but provided one meets the needs of the owner in terms of range and capacity, there’s very little to dislike about them.    Imagine never having to queue for a pump ever again!

Dave

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

“Chris mistakenly assumes that he has a choice!”

That statement may be applicable if I were a younger man but as I have already passed my allotted three-score years and ten I think my car will, rather annoyingly, out-live me!

 

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

Imagine never having to queue for a pump ever again!

Dave

So you don’t expect any waiting at charging points then Dave

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I once jokingly suggested catenary over the motorway and trolley trucks, only to find that the Germans have done it.

The idea of ‘tesla only’ chargers should be outlawed, any charger should charge any car, and not at some exorbitant cost.

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

EVs are a partial answer to the oil problem.

No they are not. EVs may be a partial solution local air pollution issues directly attributable to ICE exhaust emissions, but that is about it.

Basically you won’t get Evs at all without a substantial oil input – the batteries require a product called needle coke, which is an oil product. The extensive HV cabling insulation is an oil product. They have gearboxes that require oil for lubrication. The steel used to produce them is refined in arc furnaces – the graphite electrodes used to produce the arc are an oil product. The semicinductors for motor control are processed through furnaces insulated with graphite insulation – oil product. No oil – no EVs !

For all that, it is heartening to see that, at last, some sensible smaller affordable Evs are in the pipeline, like the (from) £15K Dacia Spring. “Only” 65hp & 150mile(ish) range, but under 1 tonne kerb weight and far more relevant to most than the current offerings of £70K+, 400hp + 2 1/2 tonne monsters that have lead the way so far.

Nigel B.

[Bo’sunParticipant @bosun58570]

Well put Nigel,

Maybe prices will come down to a sensible level.  But let’s not forget.  Woeful depreciation, high repair costs (if you can find anyone willing to do repairs), cost of insurance, not to mention poor charging infrastructure, and they’ll be worthless once the battery warranty has expired, etc.

Maybe great as local transport, but to replace the ICE, I’m not convinced.

I suspect, if the whole of life costs/environmental impact were taken into account, rather than any perceived short term benefits, the EV might not be a green as the eco warriors believe.

I’m not a betting person, but if I was, I’d put my money on alternative fuels.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

Imagine never having to queue for a pump ever again!

Dave

So you don’t expect any waiting at charging points then Dave

Beat me to it.

Sometimes I can’t charge my PHEV at work due to all the chargers / designated outlets being taken. First come first served. I often see all the chargers at the local services occupied and people waiting. I don’t use them as the cost per mile is higher than running the car on petrol….
My personal view is lots more nuclear and use the excess to hydolyse water into hydrogen. Hydrogen is the only viable non oil solution for long haul air travel. Trouble is getting H2 without causing more pollution.
I’m directly involved in devloping H2 systems for aircraft https://hydrogenindustryleaders.com/hyfive-developing-a-hydrogen-fuel-system-to-support-jet-zero/

[Gary WoodingParticipant @garywooding25363]

Currently, approx 60% of the price of petrol or diesel goes to the government as tax. When we all switch to EVs, where do you think the government will turn to retrieve the lost revenue?

[Robert Atkinson 2]

On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

On JasonB Said:

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

Imagine never having to queue for a pump ever again!

Dave

So you don’t expect any waiting at charging points then Dave

Beat me to it.

…

Most EVs, most of the time, will charge at home, or at work, or in car parks, or at lamp-posts.   The average car road trip in the UK is just over 7 miles, and we spend an average of 390 hours per year travelling.   As there are 8760 hours in a year, it should be possible to keep an EV trickle charged!

My commute to work was 40 miles per day plus weekend shopping of 30 miles and a 70 mile Sunday loop visiting family.   Easily within the capability of an EV even if I only trickle charged it overnight at home.  Now I’m retired my mileage is much lower.

Watch-out for EV bashers who think everyone has long distance needs, or has watched too many adverts where 4X4s explore the Sahara, and hasn’t twigged they only go off-road in super-market car-parks!

There will of course be local problems.   Fossil fuel die-hards are fighting tooth and nail to block rolling out the necessary infrastructure.  Presumably they haven’t realised they will end up off the road entirely.   The price of petrol is going to rise sharply over the next 30 years as oil runs dry.  At the moment, EVs powered by low cost renewable electricity are the only viable alternative to IC, though I have high hopes for Hydrogen, also produced low cost renewable electricity.

The big problem with fossil-fuels is they made economic growth easy, and now too many folk have formed an emotional attachment to them.   Unfortunately the game is changing, much to the discomfort of politicians discovering that their economy can’t be boosted simply by drilling more oil wells and digging more coal.

But don’t panic!  Most of us want vehicles that get us from A to B without costing a bomb and don’t give two hoots about the engine and what powers it.   Such customers will be specially attracted to vehicles that are cheaper to buy, cheaper to run, and offer superior performance for the type of journey they do.  Best of all EVs do not rely on foreign imports!

EVs aren’t one for one replacements for IC vehicles.   But in quite a lot of circumstances they are better or equivalent.   Only motorists doing lots miles per year need fast mid-journey recharging.    I think fuel-station recharging will become a special case.   Heavy haulage and farm machinery may be a special case too: perhaps relying on oil long after everyone else has moved on.

The end-of-oil as we know it is driven by the Laws of Economics and Physics, so things have to change.  It’s not a matter of opinion.    Unless anyone knows the location of a limitless supply of oil and how to alter the weather.

Dave

 

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Sorry Dave but ttaht is not the whole story.
Many people, me included, do not have a space or access to charge an EV at home. Lamposts are only one side of the road and many car lengths apart. I’m lucky and can charge at work IF there is a space There are 8 13A outlets in a 200 plus space car park. Already you have to be early to get a socket.
Carparks? I the local ones Tesco’s have 5 spots in a 600 space carpark The council ones have 2 per floor again less than 1% of capacity. Yes my commute is only 12 miles each way and even my PHEV will do that on EV but I might get told that I have to go off-site, maybe a 100 miles, without notice. That needs a “topped up” battery if I had a pure EV.
Yes we have to change from oil but the infrastructure for EVs is not keeping up and will not get better in the short term.
For factories etc the return of the “works bus” (EV of course) might be a good answer. My commute takes 20 min but to use public transport will take two buses two walks and nearly an hour IF the buses are on time.

Robert.

[derek hall 1]

On derek hall 1 Said:

 

 

Makes one think a little more deeper about the supposed green credentials of EV’s doesn’t it?

Regards to all

No, not at all. I care more about local pollution, don’t you?

Nice try on the scaremongering but the projected lack of copper by EV haters has already been largely debunked.

https://www.shapesbyhydro.com/en/material-properties/how-we-can-substitute-aluminium-for-copper-in-the-green-transition/

 

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Don’t worry about the Copper … Remember they’ve promised to remove the telephone wires soon … It’s only (sic) a matter of getting all these projects synchronised.

MichaelG.

 

[Robert Atkinson 2]

On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

Sorry Dave but ttaht is not the whole story.
Many people, me included, do not have a space or access to charge an EV at home.

Robert.

It’s not ideal if you can’t charge at home but according to figures I’ve seen the majority of motorists should be able to. Apparently 65% of motorists have their own drive and a further estimated 8% have access to off street parking. I also read a while back that at present 93% of UK EV drivers are charging at home.

The real issue will eventually not be the ability to charge a EV but cost. Home chargers won’t be using public, supermarket, DIY store etc chargers because it’s cheaper to charge at home. This could potentially leave plenty of charging spaces for those that can’t. Sadly public charging incurs VAT at a rate of 20%. There have been calls by some to scrap or reduce the VAT but I can’t see that happening.

An obvious advantage of charging at home. I’m currently paying 16p a mile for my Petrol car.

 

[VicParticipant @vic]

Only motorists doing lots miles per year need fast mid-journey recharging.

Dave

Would this be any good, or still too slow? 😆 I also read that they are looking at combining capacitors and batteries that could potentially recharge an EV much quicker than a petrol pump?! 😮

 

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