Change to the Code of Conduct

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I'm really, really not sure I work optimally….

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 25/06/2020 13:30:37:

Regular mentions are dodgy editor

 

You might want to consider the ambiguity of that.

 

(oh – I see someone beat me to it!)

Edited By Bandersnatch on 25/06/2020 17:27:41

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

After a youtube link was removed from another thread about Aluminium casting i thought i better look up this thread to try and work out what i can and cannot do . While i fully understand why the links are being removed I don’t know if i can still mention a youtube channel -ie i was watching Neil Wyatt on his channel yesterday and he was doing this or that . There is no link just a channel mention and it would be up to the other forum members to look up that channel if interested – is this ok ? The difficult thing with allowing or removing links to channels is today they may post a video and they have never done any reviews of any products whatsoever but tomorrow they might .

If I cannot mention a youtube channel because of the problems caused by reviews ( personally i hate them ) for the legitimate advertisers on this website wouldn’t it be the same for sites like ebay , banggood ,amazon etc? I have seen plenty of links to ebay items when a forum member has asked where can they get this or that .

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

We can't see into the future so nothing that can be done if someone starts doing review type videos after a link to their channel is posted. However you can do the same as the Mods do before linking to a video, look at the Youtubers other videos and make a decision based on what you see, no sign of reviews and most likely your link is fine if they are doing reviews then you can expect your link to be removed.

As for your second point I have been removing links to e-bay etc this is covered by the first few words in the CoC clause "Posts linking to unregulated sellers"

Posting links to unregulated sellers or ‘review videos’
While we understand that forum members want to discuss all aspects of the hobby,
we reserve the right to remove links or posts linking to sellers who may be
supplying goods not properly covered by UK safety or consumer legislation.
This includes ‘review videos’ that generate income from such links.

You can link to what can be judged as a bona fide seller or simply say e-bay or bought off the web etc.

[John RutzenParticipant @johnrutzen76569]

I think you have to be careful about removing links. The moderator's personal opinions shouldn't come into it. There's one engineering forum where you aren't allowed to mention Atlas machine tools because the moderator doesn't like them! I don't see anything wrong with Youtube videos, Youtube themselves will remove any offensive material. We are old enough to decide what to buy without it being censored.

Edited By JasonB on 26/08/2020 09:00:31

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

Quoting from the COC and Neil's first post on the thread:

"Posting links to unregulated sellers or ‘review videos’
While we understand that forum members want to discuss all aspects of the hobby,
we reserve the right to remove links or posts linking to sellers who may be
supplying goods not properly covered by UK safety or consumer legislation.
This includes ‘review videos’ that generate income from such links.

We will try and apply as light a touch as possible."

The COC only limits itself to links to sellers supplying goods not properly covered by UK safety or consumer legislation and review videos of such. It only refers to the linked review videos, not the whole lot of unrelated videos one person may posses!

How can one say that "we'll try to apply a light a touch as possible" and then delete a link to a video where no advertising was being made? Isn't this nitpicking?

Forgive me, English is not my native language so it could very well be I'm missing something something here as I really cant's see/understand the problem.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by John Rutzen on 26/08/2020 08:15:57:

I think you have to be careful about removing links. The moderator's personal opinions shouldn't come into it. There's one engineering forum where you aren't allowed to mention Atlas machine tools because the moderator doesn't like them! I don't see anything wrong with Youtube videos, Youtube themselves will remove any offensive material. We are old enough to decide what to buy without it being censored.

If you read the thread on Code of Conduct, you will see that it is something this site's advertising customers demanded.

That's, ostensibly, who pays for the site to run. But it does rather ignore the fact that the members pay to use the forum. They pay with their attention. Which is what the site owners then onsell to the advertising clients. The members' attention is clearly worth money, as the advertisers pay money for it, and compete with each other for it.

The members then should perhaps be given equal consideration as the advertisers, because they are the base payers for the site. No members, no attention to be sold, no attention to be sold, no advertisers.

Edited By JasonB on 26/08/2020 09:00:52

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

Posted by Hopper on 26/08/2020 08:30:18:

Posted by John Rutzen on 26/08/2020 08:15:57:

I think you have to be careful about removing links. The moderator's personal opinions shouldn't come into it. There's one engineering forum where you aren't allowed to mention Atlas machine tools because the moderator doesn't like them! I don't see anything wrong with Youtube videos, Youtube themselves will remove any offensive material. We are old enough to decide what to buy without it being censored.

If you read the thread on Code of Conduct, you will see that it is something this site's advertising customers demanded.

That's, ostensibly, who pays for the site to run. But it does rather ignore the fact that the members pay to use the forum. They pay with their attention. Which is what the site owners then onsell to the advertising clients. The members' attention is clearly worth money, as the advertisers pay money for it, and compete with each other for it.

The members then should perhaps be given equal consideration as the advertisers, because they are the base payers for the site. No members, no attention to be sold, no attention to be sold, no advertisers.

Well said Hopper.

Over-zealous forum police and the kowtowing to advertisers is making me seriously re-consider even logging into this forum again,

Lately, the mods have deleted a few posts (Such as relating to 'Ideots' when the truth was apperent to all,

As for the 'Advertisers', leaning on threads, Rest assured, the backlash from people such as myself means that I shall never click on your links again.

MEW, please re-consider your attitude.

* Danny M *

Edited By Danny M2Z on 26/08/2020 09:09:34

Edited By JasonB on 26/08/2020 09:10:04

Edited By Danny M2Z on 26/08/2020 09:13:26

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I note that the two preceding posts have both been edited by JasonB

Unfortunately … We bystanders have no idea what those edits involved, and cannot therefore learn from the process.

May I suggest that ‘moderating’ edits might usefully be accompanied by a brief explanation ?

… ‘for obscenity’

… ‘for advertising’

… ‘for libel’

… ‘for breach of Copyright’

etc.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 26/08/2020 09:27:39

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

See my post 9.01 in this thread, another posted after that was also moved, sorry if that is not good enough fort you.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

People who play by the rules are at a disadvantage, I recently bought an item which is unique so no other source from the USA. The supplier used the legal process which doubled the cost of the item. The UK do not seem to enforce the postal system between China and the UK. The description and value are frequently lies which must do harm to suppliers who are honest. The temptation is there to right off the duds bought directly from China as a reasonable risk and you could not return it for the price paid which is probably why they just say keep it if you complain. I feel that it is unfair to give free exposure to the black market at the expense in more than one way of the sponsors of this site. Everyone knows the direct import sites so no need to support them here.

Mike

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 26/08/2020 09:29:19:

See my post 9.01 in this thread, another posted after that was also moved, sorry if that is not good enough fort you.

.

That, in itself, seems entirely reasonable, Jason

But it was [until 09:29:19] mysterious in this discussion.

MichaelG.

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

Michael the whole issue revolves around the thread I started regarding Aluminium casting, where I linked a couple of videos which describe how one can turn scrap alu into round stock for machining. The discussion was about the viability of such, but one needs to see the videos to be able to judge the end result and the technique used.

The video links were moderated and removed so I asked why? The answer was on the line of being against the COC which prohibits advertising of certain products. I objected as the video did not contain any reference to any product so imho it is legit. The moderators opinion differs as the youtuber has other unrelated video content on his channel where he reviews products which the forum does not approve of…I find the moderation was too drastic…especially since in the first post of this thread Neil gave us the understanding that moderation would be fairly reasonable, but then again I understand that they have a whole forum to moderate, so it's not easy.

 

Edited By ChrisB on 26/08/2020 09:55:19

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

We went into a reataurant last night and when our order was ready the waiter just shouted over " it's in the kitchen just go and get it yourself I can't be bothered to serve you". Well no of course that didn't happen but I feel that's the attitude of the just post a video and nothing else types (not the jason types where the video is extra icing). I was going to say more but I'l post the video link of that

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

I swear one day you’re going to be typing in a comment and a moderator will be chasing you and deleting what you have typed as you type it 🤪

Seriously – I don’t envy the job moderators have – its sort of damned if you do and damned if you don’t and you will never keep everyone happy !
The main thing i wanted to know is if mentioning a channel name rather than a link was still ok – regardless of the creator doing reviews or not , it would be a shame if this is not possible as some creators make some pretty amazing videos and to have these good videos censored because they did a review of a product is a shame .Unfortunately many creators are being lured into these reviews with the promise of more free equipment , others are going the whole hog and moving everything to patreon – i unsubscribe from most of these as soon as they mention that word !

Another thing i was wondering is what if the creator of a video is a company that doesn’t advertise on this site ? Let me think now – I will pick one, lets say a U.S based machine tool company who made some excellent youtube videos ( i deleted the name so the moderators don’t have to – jk !) there is always going to be some advertising of their products in their videos which essentially is the same as a review . What about channels that are sponsored ? What if this video is bought to you by such and such which is a direct competitor to one of the advertisers here ? Will they kick up a stink ?
I can understand removing links to reviews on YouTube but cutting out or banning an entire channel because they did a review in a previous video is a bit much .

Hey Hopper and Danny if you have any links to Aussie forums please send me a pm !

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

Posted by Bazyle on 26/08/2020 10:22:29:

We went into a reataurant last night and when our order was ready the waiter just shouted over " it's in the kitchen just go and get it yourself I can't be bothered to serve you". Well no of course that didn't happen but I feel that's the attitude of the just post a video and nothing else types (not the jason types where the video is extra icing). I was going to say more but I'l post the video link of that

Not sure if your post is a generic comment or if it's related to today's posts on this thread.

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

It is Neil's ball. We play by his rules!

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by XD 351 on 26/08/2020 10:28:00:

I swear one day you’re going to be typing in a comment and a moderator will be chasing you and deleting what you have typed as you type it 🤪

Seriously – I don’t envy the job moderators have – its sort of damned if you do and damned if you don’t and you will never keep everyone happy !
The main thing i wanted to know is if mentioning a channel name rather than a link was still ok – regardless of the creator doing reviews or not , it would be a shame if this is not possible as some creators make some pretty amazing videos and to have these good videos censored because they did a review of a product is a shame .Unfortunately many creators are being lured into these reviews with the promise of more free equipment , others are going the whole hog and moving everything to patreon – i unsubscribe from most of these as soon as they mention that word !

Another thing i was wondering is what if the creator of a video is a company that doesn’t advertise on this site ? Let me think now – I will pick one, lets say a U.S based machine tool company who made some excellent youtube videos ( i deleted the name so the moderators don’t have to – jk !) there is always going to be some advertising of their products in their videos which essentially is the same as a review . What about channels that are sponsored ? What if this video is bought to you by such and such which is a direct competitor to one of the advertisers here ? Will they kick up a stink ?
I can understand removing links to reviews on YouTube but cutting out or banning an entire channel because they did a review in a previous video is a bit much .

Hey Hopper and Danny if you have any links to Aussie forums please send me a pm !

The Code of Conduct only mentions posting of links to non-approved sites and videos. Makes no comment on posting the names of sites or video channels or persons etc. That seems to be ok and indeed I have seen it several times without it being deleted. .

Sorry, don't know of any Aussie forums for Model Engineering or similar. Like many special interest topics there seems to be not a big enough population here to reach critical mass online. I invariably end up on US or UK sites.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Sorry to come late to this resurgent discussion.

This is not an easy issue to deal with and the compromise which was reached (and that what happened) inevitable goes further than some would like and not as far as others would wish.

In defence of what has been agreed, some other very popular forums have far more draconian rules, while others are more lax. In general, it is commercial sites that are strictest as such sites do have to protect their revenue streams.

Inevitably there are those who believe that the internet is 'free' and that the only 'censorship' should be self-censorship, but it is a fact that the rules for this site have to be a balance between generating the income to justify its costs while keeping it a useful forum for the members.

Ironically, in many cases it would be easier to lock a thread or delete a post rather than edit out links, a process which draws attention to itself. But we feel it is fairer to at least try to keep the sense of what a post or thread is about.

It's fair to say that it doesn't take much expertise with search engines to find the subject of such posts but it does stop links on our website appearing in searches. As this site ranks highly on Google etc. those links are exactly what the operators of certain sites often pay for.

These issues aren't new; several years ago I had to ask the admin of another website to choose between making postings actively promoting their website over this one, or leaving. They chose to leave.

As to specifics, a particular issue with videos is that they often carry a series of promoted links in the 'about' section. Where these links are the sort we remove here, then we remove the video link.

Getting this right isn't easy and isn't always comfortable for us or for forum members – points I made when we were deciding what to do. But a policy has been put in place, and we now have to follow it. This has meant extra effort for moderation (especially for Jason) especially as the site has never been busier or attracted more new members (and spammers who have to be dealt with, usually invisibly to users).

Even so, I hope that in practice the impact on users has been relatively minimal and not detracted significantly from the site.

Since the new CoC we have actually had to do less editing than was expected, suggesting members are trying to follow them, and I thank members for that. Your patience and understanding is appreciated.

Neil

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

[This posting has been removed]

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Well I find posts describing what members are actually doing to be the most interesting rather than regurgitating web content. The only links I post are to a source of supply of an item someone has requested and usually to a company I have used before. I don't know if that would fall foul of the rules, shouldn't have thought so.

regards Martin

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

At least here we can have a sensible conversation with those responsible. Anywhere else there would be a piece of AI software doing the policing and making any number of seemingly random decisions

Pete

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

Most if not all the videos i watch have some sort of link to a supplier or some sort – even if the channel is not sponsored or affiliated to that supplier . This i find is especially true for channels that are mostly concerned with arduino or electronics projects as they will be using a certain module or component from this or that supplier etc .

As far as i can see it is now not really worth the effort to mention any youtube channels or links to suppliers that don’t advertise on here – having to go back through all the videos to ensure they didn’t do any reviews or check if it is ok to mention that supplier will be a chore that i’m just not interested in doing- a mine field best circumnavigated if you will!

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

Everyone is posting generic statements but no one seems to want to answer my specific posts which re-started this thread.

I repeat for the 100th time: the linked video in question did not refer or review any particular tool or supplier whatsoever, and in it's description/about section, there were no links to any promotion. The only extra info was the type of camera used.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Chris

Although the two linked videos did not carry any direct links in the comments they were as you have said posted by a creator who has a large proportion of "review" or "sponsored" videos. The way Youtube works you get a column of suggested video down the right hand side and will also start getting video by that creator suggested each time you visit Youtube which will likely lead to you getting their sponsored ones come up so although not direct you are linking to non content that is not allowed.

having been party to a lot of the e-mails that passed between MTM and the advertisers they very much were against the Creator not individual videos. Without much in the way of guidance I made my judgement based on that.

As far as the idiots thread that you mentioned goes I got a record number of reports from several members about several of the posts with the reporters being reported by others, not having the time or inclination to read through what was tea room waffle it was easiest to delete the reported posts, the other options were to leave the reports for Neil to deal with in which case they often go unactioned for a few days in which case there would have been more quoting of said posts and bickering which would have needed even more time to sort out.

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