Change to the Code of Conduct

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

The thread about a pooryl earthed machine, suppled by UK dealer who advertises on the forum that was deleted also came to my mind. Davd mentioned it and Neil repled " The other thread was pulled as statements were made of dubious legality. For example it was stated as fact that a supplier was negligent because they didn't unbox and inspect every product before sale. "

Without going into the details of that case, it is irrefutably the case that an importer IS responsible for the safety of the items they import. They need to take adequate steps to insure that. Many importers do actually check every item or samples from each batch. In the particular case I was surprised that the suppler has not issued any recall on the product as the problem was clearly a design or manufacturing process issue, not a random failure.

Again in general terms, not specfic to that case, importers should remember that if a non -compliant product (for whatever reason), causes a death, the owners /senior management can face manslaughter charges. It is up to the courts to decide if relying on a foregin companies quality control and testing was reasonable (it obviously wasn't adequate or there would be no case).

What did happen to ARC adverts.

Robert G8RPI.

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by blowlamp on 23/06/2020 16:48:14:

Posted by Nick Clarke 3 on 23/06/2020 15:27:05:

Posted by blowlamp on 23/06/2020 14:15:50:

Posted by Paul Rhodes on 23/06/2020 13:20:14:

He who pays the piper calls the tune.…..so why are we surprised that advertisers are disgruntled.?

Assuming that discussion is permitted and common sense vetting applied by the moderators, and I do not doubt it, who can object?

 

 

Some might think that is the forum contributors, magazine purchasers and digital subscribers.

But while all three groups are users or potential users of the site, it is MyTimeMedia and the advertisers who provide it and pay for it, not these three groups.

The only problem with common sense is that there will always be someone who doesn't think it is and gets upset, but if the owners and funders of anything in the public eye set the rules so be it.

How do you know that – you don't think purchases/digital subs of the magazines advertised here could go towards running this site?

What kind of profit do you think MyTimeMedia and their advertisers would have if it weren't for the other "three groups" that populate this place?

Obviously the cost of running this site is paid by MyTimeMedia out of their income including that from from print and digital subscriptions and advertising revenue,

But as you not only do not have to be a subscriber to use the site and if you are a subscriber you don't have to use the site they are independent things in my opinion – and the users who may be either a subset or superset of subscribers do not have a controlling interest in what is or is not allowed on here.

Common sense and a desire to provide a place where model engineers can meet online, and the magazines and advertisers products can be fairly promoted seem to be a good aim for the forum.

 

Edited By Nick Clarke 3 on 23/06/2020 18:45:14

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by blowlamp on 23/06/2020 16:48:14:

How do you know that – you don't think purchases/digital subs of the magazines advertised here could go towards running this site?

What kind of profit do you think MyTimeMedia and their advertisers would have if it weren't for the other "three groups" that populate this place?

I think, Martin, that the answer is how many other hobby magazines have as busy a forum as this one?

We aren't ignorant or the fact that providing a linked space for readers helps the magazines – my personal view is that the forum provides a sort of 'virtual club' that helps bring readers from all over the world and both magazines together.

Most companies with a forum as busy as this (it's arguably the busiest hobby engineering forum on the web, certainly in the top two) would be breaking their necks to monetise it by doing far more than just selling a modest amount of adversing space.

But most magazines operate without an accompanying forum, even if they have a website the majority just allow discussion of articles.

But the forum represents an investment by the publishers that has to justify its ongoing costs (and hopefullly future investment). That means raising direct income, whatever the intangible benefits of sustaining the readership and the wider hobby.

As someone who has shown themselves to be a shrewd investor, I would have thought you would appreciate this perspective more than most?

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by 10ba12ba on 23/06/2020 17:16:55:

What does it cost to keep this website up and running?

(or is that too rude a question?)

H.

Costs are generally proprtional to the number of users per month so the answer to the question is 'not insignificant'.

Some costs come from supporting what is a bespoke forum (one reason why its so hard to change things – even getting the new CoC up was difficult, even as an admin I can't edit some pages). MyTimeMedia is aware of the desire of users for a more modern platform, and if that does happen it will probably increase costs even if it makes maintenence easier.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 23/06/2020 18:26:12:

Without going into the details of that case, it is irrefutably the case that an importer IS responsible for the safety of the items they import. They need to take adequate steps to insure that. Many importers do actually check every item or samples from each batch. In the particular case I was surprised that the suppler has not issued any recall on the product as the problem was clearly a design or manufacturing process issue, not a random failure.

Do the CoOp unbox and check every kettle they sell? Are the likes of Currys being held responsible for not checking all those White Knight tumble driers that caught fire?

Workshop equipment is materially and legally no different. The whole purpose of PROPER certification of imports is to give a supplier the confidence that they don't need to carry out those checks on anything other than a occasional sample basis. That is why proper certification is expensive, complicated and requires verifiable evidence, and why some overseas suppliers who just rely on a sticker are able to charge lower prices.

Obviously no system is 100% effective, but you can't hang, draw and quarter a supplier for following the same practices as any other bulk importer/retailer of electrical goods.

Neil

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

The Co-Op and the like will normally at least have a sample tested and act on reported issues. Additionally they will use supplies that meet their requirements for quality control etc and the items will have been tesed before leaving the manufacturer.
The issue in the particular case is that the item with the bad earth had a design / production fault so clearly adequate checks or QA had nott been carried out. Additionally there has been no mention of any recall or other recovery action.
The importer has to ensure the items they sell are safe, how the do that is up to them. If they want to trust the manufacturer that is up to them but they are responsible if it all goes wrong. For whatever reason (greed, ignorance and lazyness are common) some importers do not fulfil their obligations. It is then a game of chance, just hope it's not you or someone you know who looses.

There is a similar issue with other hobby magazines. This Months Radcom had a front cover picture and review of a piece of test equipment and funnily enough a shortform catalogue from one of th UK stockists.

Robert G8RPI.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

A quick look at the trading standards site shows john lewis recalling a bathroom cabinet because the mirror might fall out.

Did john Lewis check them all, No

Did they make them No

However they did recall them, not the maker the seller.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 23/06/2020 18:56:19:

Posted by blowlamp on 23/06/2020 16:48:14:

How do you know that – you don't think purchases/digital subs of the magazines advertised here could go towards running this site?

What kind of profit do you think MyTimeMedia and their advertisers would have if it weren't for the other "three groups" that populate this place?

I think, Martin, that the answer is how many other hobby magazines have as busy a forum as this one?

We aren't ignorant or the fact that providing a linked space for readers helps the magazines – my personal view is that the forum provides a sort of 'virtual club' that helps bring readers from all over the world and both magazines together.

Most companies with a forum as busy as this (it's arguably the busiest hobby engineering forum on the web, certainly in the top two) would be breaking their necks to monetise it by doing far more than just selling a modest amount of adversing space.

But most magazines operate without an accompanying forum, even if they have a website the majority just allow discussion of articles.

But the forum represents an investment by the publishers that has to justify its ongoing costs (and hopefullly future investment). That means raising direct income, whatever the intangible benefits of sustaining the readership and the wider hobby.

As someone who has shown themselves to be a shrewd investor, I would have thought you would appreciate this perspective more than most?

Neil

Hi Neil.

I agree, it is a very knowledgable & active forum and I think that's why we stay and contribute.

The purpose of my few posts was only to serve as a reminder that all parties need consideration for the site to keep working – so it's not only MyTimeMedia & its advertisers that are important, the customers and participants are too and I wanted to bring that into the conversation.

For instance, it's very often the case that forum members recommend products sold through businesses featured here, so in effect, we are sometimes unpaid advertisers and should be appreciated as such.

When all is said and done, this site could probably survive without outside advertisers, but not without its members, which is the thing I think is most important to remember.

You have a difficult balancing act keeping advertisers and customers/contributors happy, no doubt about that!

Martin.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 23/06/2020 19:02:51:

Posted by 10ba12ba on 23/06/2020 17:16:55:

What does it cost to keep this website up and running?

(or is that too rude a question?)

H.

Costs are generally proprtional to the number of users per month so the answer to the question is 'not insignificant'.

Some costs come from supporting what is a bespoke forum (one reason why its so hard to change things – even getting the new CoC up was difficult, even as an admin I can't edit some pages). MyTimeMedia is aware of the desire of users for a more modern platform, and if that does happen it will probably increase costs even if it makes maintenence easier.

Neil

Neil,

Digressing slightly but picking up on your comment re awareness of a desire among users for a more modern platform and previous comments that have been made in response to users desires of being able to upload different format documents not just jpeg and responses have been in line with yours above re costs and the requisite changes being too expensive. May I ask if anyone has ever investigated alternative options? Following my previous comment re costs I did a bit of uninformed research and found several UK forum hosts offering monthly charges roughly in line with those I suggested with unlimited users, and free migration from existing platforms (latter may be stretching it a bit considering the likely size of this forum). Also forum software available at either a monthly charge (range £11 – £100) including support and back up or outright license purchase for around £450. Your response indicates the current system is significantly more expensive than these charges, so maybe it's time for a change and gain some better functionality and reduced costs at the same time?

Also agree with Martin that the participants of the forum make it – no posters, no-one to see ads and no benefit to anyone! Likewise no point in having a group wanting to post and no forum to post on! It's mutually beneficial to all.

Paul.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Paul Kemp on 23/06/2020 21:49:01:

 

Neil,

Digressing slightly but picking up on your comment re awareness of a desire among users for a more modern platform and previous comments that have been made in response to users desires of being able to upload different format documents not just jpeg and responses have been in line with yours above re costs and the requisite changes being too expensive. May I ask if anyone has ever investigated alternative options? Following my previous comment re costs I did a bit of uninformed research and found several UK forum hosts offering monthly charges roughly in line with those I suggested with unlimited users, and free migration from existing platforms (latter may be stretching it a bit considering the likely size of this forum). Also forum software available at either a monthly charge (range £11 – £100) including support and back up or outright license purchase for around £450. Your response indicates the current system is significantly more expensive than these charges, so maybe it's time for a change and gain some better functionality and reduced costs at the same time?

Also agree with Martin that the participants of the forum make it – no posters, no-one to see ads and no benefit to anyone! Likewise no point in having a group wanting to post and no forum to post on! It's mutually beneficial to all.

Paul.

Hi Paul,

I'm a member of two other forums that use software I have recommended to MTM.

The charging is based on the number of users and for this site I estimate the cost (before any maintenance or conversion costs) would be $490- -$570 a month.

That would only give us a gigabyte of storage which isn't enough, but in any case we would want host on a dedicated server (shared with other MTM websites) with automatic fall back to a backup. This adds another layer of costs.

Essentially the extra you are paying is covering security, reliability, easy updating, and ease of use, very high levels of availability (typically >99.99% up time) and avoiding throttling/logging off of users at busy times (something we all want to see!)

Neil

<Edit> Just to add, look up 'dedicated web server cost' on Google for an idea of the range of costs and bear in mind we need something at the higher end of performance, security and reliability.

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 24/06/2020 11:11:56

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

I may be weird but I actually like the format of this forum. I find it much easier to use than, for example, the Model Engine Maker forum which, I think, uses a commercially available solution. I don't have any of the problems that others have suggested on my W10 PC, Android tablet or Android phone.

Rod

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I'm much the same as Rod, the only real problems I have are my own senior moments.

Regards Nick.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

[This posting has been removed]

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

I have noticed people posting videos on this forum and at the same time on other related forums. I can only guess at their motives, could it merely be "look how clever I am", or is it a cheap means of making money?

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

[This posting has been removed]

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

+1 on what Rod and Nick said – I actually like the format of this forum, a lot of others seem very cluttered.

Just my two cents worth.

Rob

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I think a lot depends on the actual video, there are a couple on here here that post them regularly but don't really have any other activity on the forum but will at least respond to questions.

The other ME forum I'm quite active on you will get people asking for a video of a finished engine and it is the norm to post one along with photo's throughout the build thread.

As one who posts my fair share they fall into several types. Often I find it easier to pop down to the workshop or record onscreen something than try to explain it which may also be easier for someone else to follow. There are a few that went with the Milling for beginners series to further illustrate what was being said. The ones I have done to show the CNC have I think been useful to others and comments made have helped me make better use of it. There is also the fact that it is hard to doctor a video so for example if someone asked what runout I may have on my mill or lathe I could say anything but the video will show what I actually have and the ones (and photos) that show things being machined show that you are talking from actual first hand experience. Plus a bit of showing off the latest model of course

I'd don't mind this format either and seldom have issues, some things are actually better than the likes of Proboards

Edited By JasonB on 24/06/2020 13:34:35

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

The only thing missing I can think of at the moment is the ability to upload and share files like DXF & ZIP.

The option to share can be a great help if you get stuck with your CAD/CAM system or something.

Martin.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 24/06/2020 11:09:55:

Posted by Paul Kemp on 23/06/2020 21:49:01:

Neil,

Digressing slightly but picking up on your comment re awareness of a desire among users for a more modern platform and previous comments that have been made in response to users desires of being able to upload different format documents not just jpeg and responses have been in line with yours above re costs and the requisite changes being too expensive. May I ask if anyone has ever investigated alternative options? Following my previous comment re costs I did a bit of uninformed research and found several UK forum hosts offering monthly charges roughly in line with those I suggested with unlimited users, and free migration from existing platforms (latter may be stretching it a bit considering the likely size of this forum). Also forum software available at either a monthly charge (range £11 – £100) including support and back up or outright license purchase for around £450. Your response indicates the current system is significantly more expensive than these charges, so maybe it's time for a change and gain some better functionality and reduced costs at the same time?

Also agree with Martin that the participants of the forum make it – no posters, no-one to see ads and no benefit to anyone! Likewise no point in having a group wanting to post and no forum to post on! It's mutually beneficial to all.

Paul.

Hi Paul,

I'm a member of two other forums that use software I have recommended to MTM.

The charging is based on the number of users and for this site I estimate the cost (before any maintenance or conversion costs) would be $490- -$570 a month.

That would only give us a gigabyte of storage which isn't enough, but in any case we would want host on a dedicated server (shared with other MTM websites) with automatic fall back to a backup. This adds another layer of costs.

Essentially the extra you are paying is covering security, reliability, easy updating, and ease of use, very high levels of availability (typically >99.99% up time) and avoiding throttling/logging off of users at busy times (something we all want to see!)

Neil

<Edit> Just to add, look up 'dedicated web server cost' on Google for an idea of the range of costs and bear in mind we need something at the higher end of performance, security and reliability.

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 24/06/2020 11:11:56

Thanks Neil, as I said I am more a nuts and bolts kind of bloke and have never ventured into CNC or 3D printing even, so as I suggested this electronic interweb stuff is a bit of a dark art to me! The forum solutions I was looking at were mainly hosted type deals which I guess are for simpler, smaller operations. The costs you quote are a surprise to me but I bow to your more in depth knowledge.

All the best,

Paul.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Posted by old mart on 24/06/2020 13:09:36:

I have noticed people posting videos on this forum and at the same time on other related forums. I can only guess at their motives, could it merely be "look how clever I am", or is it a cheap means of making money?

I wondered the same thing re money and looked into this a while back quite superficially but quickly deduced unless you got some kind of sponsorship deal hosting adverts and unless you had a great deal of followers and a high number of views the income generated would be pretty insignificant. As to the look how clever I am angle, who knows why people do it? I have doubts that would be the motivation also and would tend to take the more charitable view like Barrie that it's a desire to spread knowledge. Certainly if you undertake such a venture you open yourself up to all sorts of criticism, some comments on here about these type of videos have been pretty scathing in the past! In many cases in my opinion unjustifiably so but that's my personal opinion.

I do have a YouTube account and I have the sum total of four videos posted I think over the past 10 or so years. 1 showing the test run on air of one of my traction engines and the others machining ops, none featuring me or with any commentary! I am no where near charismatic or photogenic enough to inflict that on others. All were produced to be linked to a forum thread, I guess in a similar manner to Jason's but nowhere near his quality!

I do have a long running build thread for my half size traction engine (Little Samson) on another forum. As to my motivation for that – there are 3 or 4 others building the same engine on that forum and it's a good way to exchange information and secondly to try and show just because you have limited, small machinery with some help by access to bigger stuff you can do it and actually make quite a bit on the small stuff. Not many people seem to make bits for 6" scale engines on a mini mill, myford or Hobbymat! It's not to show people how clever I arnt but to try and inspire people to have a go.

Paul.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I have to laugh, one of my videos has 3 views… the most popular is a short film of a loco at IMLEC 2019, just about 15 seconds with 356 views. I do have one of a 3D printed escapement I got off thingiverse and it has 1.5K' views! Not going to make me any money, but it shows how a tongue in cheek title lures in viewers!

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 25/06/2020 00:36:38:

Not going to make me any money, but it shows how a tongue in cheek title lures in viewers!

That's certainly not the usual form of "click bate"

[Ron ColvinParticipant @roncolvin83430]

As for "the desire among users for a more modern platform". I don't consider myself either a Luddite or a dinosaur, but have over the years become used to the ME/MEW forum user interface, and do not find any inadequacies within it that would justify a change.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I have to smile at the postings appearing that are standing up for the forum software!

I'm used to the weekly appearance of threads criticising it, just proves you can't please all of the people all of the time!

Regular mentions are dodgy editor (especially how it works on apple devices), inability to automatically upload or link to images, upload other file formats, poor linking and quoting, the inability to 'like' a post rather than having to post a new message to express agreement or approval, a propensity for logging people out, no easy way to go straight to unread messages and the lack of some custom views showing you (e.g) threads you have commented on.

I don't think any of these would get in the way of how people use the forum at present, but would make life easier for many. Obviously any new system would mean a couple of visits to get used to a new layout, but that's happened with the present system and it didn't cause any major problems.

Neil

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Regular mentions are dodgy editor

Is that not you, Neil?🙂🙂🙂

I have only two gripes – being logged off continually (Shhh, not been happening lately🤞🏻 ) and not being able to read a page of posts the other way (latest post at top of the page). The rest are relatively easily overcome with work-arounds (I think). I think the editor is a very fair fellow, not some electronic wizardry that does not work optimally

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