Change to the Code of Conduct

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 23/06/2020 09:44:45:

I'll underline what Jason has just said.

Please don't extrapolate this beyond what is actually in the new code of conduct. As per the CoC, our policy will be to " remove links or posts linking to sellers who may be supplying goods not properly covered by UK safety or consumer legislation. This includes ‘review videos’ that generate income from such links. "

[…]

.

Difficult territory, Neil … but your general approach seems reasonably practicable.

It may be useful at this point to remind folks that some of the ‘marketplaces’ are [despite appearances] essentially ‘Business to Business’ operations, and therefore not covered by Consumer legislation.

MichaelG.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/06/2020 19:56:58:

We have had requests from advertisers about an increasing for links being posted to products from certain online suppliers, in particular ones who don't operate under the same sort of trading rules (e.g. sources of non-CE marked products).

Also, there's been an increase in links to videos that are more than just simple hobbyist content, but are actually run as money-making concerns – not so much popular ones that get ads added top them by YouTube, but the ones that have along list of 'featured products'. These feature links usually generate income and often refer to the supplier mentioned above.

After considerable discussion we had to find a compromise that wouldn't stifle open discussion, but also wouldn't fill the site with lots of free links to these suppliers. We have to bear in mind that this website is paid for by our advertisers and without their support it could not continue.

As a result, we have added a fifth section to the 'Code of Conduct', http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/conduct/ :

Posting links to unregulated sellers or ‘review videos’
While we understand that forum members want to discuss all aspects of the hobby, we reserve the right to remove links or posts linking to sellers who may be supplying goods not properly covered by UK safety or consumer legislation. This includes ‘review videos’ that generate income from such links.

If you intentionally or unintentionally post a link to content of this, we will normally delete the link (we will try and avoid deleting entire posts, although this may sometimes be unavoidable if the post is little more than the link).

If we edit you post in this way it will be clear as the name of the moderator who did the edit will appear in the post.

We will try and apply as light a touch as possible.

Thanks for your understanding.

Neil

Not sure how 'we' or the moderators are supposed to know that a supplier does not conform to UK standards, have you been supplied with a black list?

We have already been prevented from posting about one unearthed equipment sale from a UK supplier

As this site is now only allowed to post links to UK suppliers who may not export and therefore only a local site for local people our members from abroad may be wondering why they logged in. I suppose the advertisers will not miss them anyway.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Dave Halford on 23/06/2020 10:18:01:

As this site is now only allowed to post links to UK suppliers who may not export and therefore only a local site for local people our members from abroad may be wondering why they logged in. I suppose the advertisers will not miss them anyway.

 

Dave, please read my earlier post.

"No problem with linking to UK, European or worldwide suppliers………………."

Edited By JasonB on 23/06/2020 10:23:05

[Gerard O’TooleParticipant @gerardotoole60348]

It s a difficult dilemma and I am glad to see Neil say 'common sense' will prevail.

I think you have to decide if you are an international site or a UK site. many vendors are regulated by their respective governments/ local authorities but not perhaps to the standards you might expect. So who decides who is regulated or not?

I am reminded of AMC motorcycles pulling all advertising from the then motorcycle press , and refusing to loan motorcycles for review, over their believe that 'foreign' motorcycles were being reviewed too favourably in comparison to their own. I believe AMC 'boycott' lasted about ten years.

[Oven ManParticipant @ovenman]

The days of free postage from China will shortly be coming to an end which should help to level the playing field considerably.

Peter

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Dave Halford on 23/06/2020 10:18:01:

Not sure how 'we' or the moderators are supposed to know that a supplier does not conform to UK standards, have you been supplied with a black list?

We have already been prevented from posting about one unearthed equipment sale from a UK supplier

As this site is now only allowed to post links to UK suppliers who may not export and therefore only a local site for local people our members from abroad may be wondering why they logged in. I suppose the advertisers will not miss them anyway.

Hi Dave,

We are a UK based site and our policies have to be based in UK rules and regulations, but being an overseas supplier is not a bar to being mentioned. I think most forum members can grasp the sort of suppliers we have in mind. To try and create a list would be impossible, as most of the suppliers who would be on it are obscure or transient; a blanket ban on the marketplaces they use would be impractical as there are many respected suppliers who use them. We ask forum members to use their judgement and we will use ours, and between us it will hopefully work..

The other thread was pulled as statements were made of dubious legality. For example it was stated as fact that a supplier was negligent because they didn't unbox and inspect every product before sale.

Neil

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by JasonB on 23/06/2020 10:22:24:

Posted by Dave Halford on 23/06/2020 10:18:01:

As this site is now only allowed to post links to UK suppliers who may not export and therefore only a local site for local people our members from abroad may be wondering why they logged in. I suppose the advertisers will not miss them anyway.

Dave, please read my earlier post.

"No problem with linking to UK, European or worldwide suppliers………………."

Edited By JasonB on 23/06/2020 10:23:05

Storm in a teacup? Lot's of joining the dots to draw a rude donkey going on in this thread! For example, this is nothing to do with the European Union or the future of CE Marks*.

Neil's change of conditions says 'we reserve the right to remove links or posts linking to sellers who may be supplying goods not properly covered by UK safety or consumer legislation. This includes ‘review videos’ that generate income from such links.' My bold, may, not will. As MyTimeMedia is a responsible commercial operation working with UK regulations and this Forum is funded by advertising, it shouldn't be a surprise the owners reserve the right to remove material that in their judgement is unwelcome.

I get censored occasionally. Serves me right! There's always been a reason and I've never thought the Moderation unfair.

Dave

* If concerned about CE Marks best write direct to your MP or the Prime Minister – they probably don't read the Forum. I've not seen anything so far in government policy suggesting that the status and use of CE marks will change after leaving. It's just not on the agenda. Did anyone ever say it was?

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by JasonB on 23/06/2020 10:22:24:

Posted by Dave Halford on 23/06/2020 10:18:01:

As this site is now only allowed to post links to UK suppliers who may not export and therefore only a local site for local people our members from abroad may be wondering why they logged in. I suppose the advertisers will not miss them anyway.

 

Dave, please read my earlier post.

"No problem with linking to UK, European or worldwide suppliers………………."

Edited By JasonB on 23/06/2020 10:23:05

Jason, I did, it said No problem with linking to UK, European or worldwide suppliers that are bona fide companies who comply with their tax, safety, etc laws This is why I said "Not sure how 'we' or the moderators are supposed to know that a supplier does not conform to UK standards"

And now I see my error with that one, I should have said "their standards without any knowledge of what they might be".

Edited By Dave Halford on 23/06/2020 11:57:56

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by JasonB on 23/06/2020 07:38:25:

Hopefully Neil will be along later to answer some of the queries but I'll add a bit.

No problem with linking to UK, European or worldwide suppliers that are bona fide companies who comply with their tax, safety, etc laws does not restrict you to only mentioning our advertisers so you could for example mention Warco, Greenwood, ARC or Cutwell APT, Zoro, or RC Machine, Barrie's BT30 supplier & GHW or PM Research, Ej Winter and so on.

How would I ever know for sure those businesses fully comply with anything? Is Banggood OK to link to?

Martin.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 23/06/2020 10:56:11:

Posted by JasonB on 23/06/2020 10:22:24:

Posted by Dave Halford on 23/06/2020 10:18:01:

As this site is now only allowed to post links to UK suppliers who may not export and therefore only a local site for local people our members from abroad may be wondering why they logged in. I suppose the advertisers will not miss them anyway.

Dave, please read my earlier post.

"No problem with linking to UK, European or worldwide suppliers………………."

Edited By JasonB on 23/06/2020 10:23:05

Storm in a teacup? Lot's of joining the dots to draw a rude donkey going on in this thread! For example, this is nothing to do with the European Union or the future of CE Marks*.

Neil's change of conditions says 'we reserve the right to remove links or posts linking to sellers who may be supplying goods not properly covered by UK safety or consumer legislation. This includes ‘review videos’ that generate income from such links.' My bold, may, not will. As MyTimeMedia is a responsible commercial operation working with UK regulations and this Forum is funded by advertising, it shouldn't be a surprise the owners reserve the right to remove material that in their judgement is unwelcome.

I get censored occasionally. Serves me right! There's always been a reason and I've never thought the Moderation unfair.

Dave

* If concerned about CE Marks best write direct to your MP or the Prime Minister – they probably don't read the Forum. I've not seen anything so far in government policy suggesting that the status and use of CE marks will change after leaving. It's just not on the agenda. Did anyone ever say it was?

This came out for a no deal Brexit withdrawn doc it may come back if no deal happens anyway at the end of the year.

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Links to paid influencers are giving them free advertising and income from more visits to their videos. The advertisers funding this forum have reason to be miffed.

Martin C

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by blowlamp on 23/06/2020 11:50:25:

Posted by JasonB on 23/06/2020 07:38:25:

Hopefully Neil will be along later to answer some of the queries but I'll add a bit.

No problem with linking to UK, European or worldwide suppliers that are bona fide companies who comply with their tax, safety, etc laws does not restrict you to only mentioning our advertisers so you could for example mention Warco, Greenwood, ARC or Cutwell APT, Zoro, or RC Machine, Barrie's BT30 supplier & GHW or PM Research, Ej Winter and so on.

How would I ever know for sure those businesses fully comply with anything? Is Banggood OK to link to?

Martin.

Don;t expect anyone to really know for sure but as Neil Said

"We are a UK based site and our policies have to be based in UK rules and regulations, but being an overseas supplier is not a bar to being mentioned. I think most forum members can grasp the sort of suppliers we have in mind. To try and create a list would be impossible, as most of the suppliers who would be on it are obscure or transient; a blanket ban on the marketplaces they use would be impractical as there are many respected suppliers who use them. We ask forum members to use their judgement and we will use ours, and between us it will hopefully work.."

and

"Obviously we will try to apply common sense"

As it is hard to tell where anything from Banggood really comes from since they are a market place then would have to say they can't be linked to.

Edited By JasonB on 23/06/2020 12:23:39

[Paul RhodesParticipant @paulrhodes20292]

He who pays the piper calls the tune……so why are we surprised that advertisers are disgruntled.?

Assuming that discussion is permitted and common sense vetting applied by the moderators, and I do not doubt it, who can object?

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Dave Halford on 23/06/2020 12:07:17:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 23/06/2020 10:56:11:

Posted by JasonB on 23/06/2020 10:22:24:

Posted by Dave Halford on 23/06/2020 10:18:01:

…

…

…

* If concerned about CE Marks best write direct to your MP or the Prime Minister – they probably don't read the Forum. I've not seen anything so far in government policy suggesting that the status and use of CE marks will change after leaving. It's just not on the agenda. Did anyone ever say it was?

This came out for a no deal Brexit withdrawn doc it may come back if no deal happens anyway at the end of the year.

Thank Dave – I missed that.

Not surprised it's been withdrawn. As described UKCA is very similar to CE and was to be run in parallel with it. I can't believe anyone would welcome twice the bureaucracy! At the moment, the government advice is: For current information, read: CE marking , which links to the 2012 position. I can't find anything about what happens deal or no deal next year. I guess CE Marking will carry on exactly as before because no-one has suggested a better alternative yet.

Dave

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

While strictly not on topic but in relation to shipping costs from China to the UK are NOT free though they are extremely cheap. This site gives details of the cost of postage from China, at present the exchange rate is about 10CNY to £1 or about 10p to 1CNY. The cost to post a parcel to the UK is 5CNY for the first 50g + 0.09CNY for every gram extra even for air mail.

Martin

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Paul Rhodes on 23/06/2020 13:20:14:

He who pays the piper calls the tune.…..so why are we surprised that advertisers are disgruntled.?

Assuming that discussion is permitted and common sense vetting applied by the moderators, and I do not doubt it, who can object?

Some might think that is the forum contributors, magazine purchasers and digital subscribers.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Not sure if it is related but one of the things on a few forums that irritates me is the people who just bang up a post to point to their latest video. I don't know if it is to drive views for revenue or they are too lazy to participate normally with a description and a few still pictures as I ignore them.
Maybe it's just that I don't want to be watching endless youtube as I really enjoy the way people like Jason present their work, a bit like a magazine build,  which for me is the big plus for the forum.

Edited By Bazyle on 23/06/2020 14:54:25

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by Bazyle on 23/06/2020 14:51:08:

Not sure if it is related but one of the things on a few forums that irritates me is the people who just bang up a post to point to their latest video. I don't know if it is to drive views for revenue or they are too lazy to participate normally with a description and a few still pictures as I ignore them.

Edited By Bazyle on 23/06/2020 14:54:25

I second that.

Ian P

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I know what you mean, if the video is genuine without links, its Ok, particularly if the person engages with other forum members.

If they were people looking for ways to to bump up their advertising revenue it would be different, but when videos have views in the tens or low hundreds this isn't the case.

Neil

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by blowlamp on 23/06/2020 14:15:50:

Posted by Paul Rhodes on 23/06/2020 13:20:14:

He who pays the piper calls the tune.…..so why are we surprised that advertisers are disgruntled.?

Assuming that discussion is permitted and common sense vetting applied by the moderators, and I do not doubt it, who can object?

Some might think that is the forum contributors, magazine purchasers and digital subscribers.

But while all three groups are users or potential users of the site, it is MyTimeMedia and the advertisers who provide it and pay for it, not these three groups.

The only problem with common sense is that there will always be someone who doesn't think it is and gets upset, but if the owners and funders of anything in the public eye set the rules so be it.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Having some experience of engineering products I feel that I can determine the dodgy from the ok. Many people who join this forum are novices and in search of genuine advice. Some YouTube reviews I have seen have me muttering “you must be joking”. Some eBay sellers are selling stuff that is far from acceptable and does not meet UK standards and regulations. An example is a couple of lamp holders I recently purchased, having decided to make a pair of the ubiquitous copper tube table light I was looking for some suitable lamp holders, suspecting I would probably finish up putting them in the bin I purchased a couple. To call them shocking could literally be true, no earth terminal on a metal lamp holder the cap of the ES holder was still visible and touchable so the shroud is inadequate, the insulation was cardboard and no effective strain relief for the cable. A Canadian YouTube instructor was unconcerned when someone raised this in the comments. I doubt Canada would give these holders an ok just as the UK doesn’t.

I must support this forum no platforming inadequate and probably illegal supply paths, the quest for a bargain can be taken too far, if you want to be bombarded with dodgy adverts then Facebook will be more than happy to oblige.

Mike

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Nick Clarke 3 on 23/06/2020 15:27:05:

Posted by blowlamp on 23/06/2020 14:15:50:

Posted by Paul Rhodes on 23/06/2020 13:20:14:

He who pays the piper calls the tune.…..so why are we surprised that advertisers are disgruntled.?

Assuming that discussion is permitted and common sense vetting applied by the moderators, and I do not doubt it, who can object?

Some might think that is the forum contributors, magazine purchasers and digital subscribers.

But while all three groups are users or potential users of the site, it is MyTimeMedia and the advertisers who provide it and pay for it, not these three groups.

The only problem with common sense is that there will always be someone who doesn't think it is and gets upset, but if the owners and funders of anything in the public eye set the rules so be it.

How do you know that – you don't think purchases/digital subs of the magazines advertised here could go towards running this site?

What kind of profit do you think MyTimeMedia and their advertisers would have if it weren't for the other "three groups" that populate this place?

[10ba12baParticipant @10ba12ba]

What does it cost to keep this website up and running?

(or is that too rude a question?)

H.

[AdrianRParticipant @adrianr18614]

Ah, this explains why a couple of my links disappeared recently. Sounds completely reasonable. I know of the product links on youtube, but must admit I take no notice of them myself. I will check before posting links in the future.

Adrian

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Posted by 10ba12ba on 23/06/2020 17:16:55:

What does it cost to keep this website up and running?

(or is that too rude a question?)

H.

I had a similar question in mind. I have no real experience of this type of electronic stuff outside the costs of our club web site (which has a forum function that we don't currently use) and my own website niether of which costs more than £200 a year for hosting and domain charges. I guess there may be a software licence associated with this site and support from the host that may or may not be included in a monthly cost? Whichever way I can't see it costing more than £1k a year? Staffing is effectively free as Jason and I suspect whatever other moderators there are, do this as volunteers? Neil being "on the books" so to speak is effectively free to the forum. All supposition so happy to be shot down!

At a glance I see 7 current advertisers. I am sure for the priveledge of gaining access to the number of members there are on a daily basis plus any passing browsing trade they would be very happy to pay £12 a month – you wouldn't get a decent ad in a local paper for that! So effectively its self financing with no cost to MTM, even without any advertising revenue £90 a month for the publicity for the media group is pretty small beer.

Here is an idea, charge every forum user £2 or even £5 a year, no idea of the number of active members but it must surely be 500 then any advertising revenue is a bonus!

Worth considering maybe that if you are an advertiser in a publication, do you have editorial rights over the content of the publication? This situation just seems a bit skewed to me in that advertisers can dictate what products are discussed or shown in a forum that is supposed to be an open forum for discussion and exchange of ideas and promoting a hobby.

Paul.

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