CES Change of Owner

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

I have discovered that Howard of CES has sold the business to another company and is withdrawing gracefully.

Immediate effect as far as I am concerned is a steep increase in price at least of Cast Iron block. Two orders, one "old" CES and one "new" CES for exactly the same amounts were +28.3% on material cost and to cap it all VAT is now payable to the "new" CES. That's +42% on just this order.

I need a new source of cast iron!!

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

CES has been sold on.

[mike TParticipant @miket56243]

If we all vote with our feet, then perhaps the new owners will get the message.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

KWIL I think you will find CES were always Plus VAT, at least the couple of paper catalogues that I have here were all plus VAT. Also when the business was advertised for sale it had a turnover which was above the VAT threshold.

So make sure you know where you are walking before voting with your feet.

J

Edited By JasonB on 20/04/2016 17:18:52

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

It would be a bit sad to see them go and I have heard that cast iron prices have gone up a lot. This can be a problem for retailers as they may have stock bought at a particular price and sadly they need to account for the cost of restocking.

While some might think that they should simply take some money out of the bank to buy new stock it often isn't as simple as that.

John

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[SteveIParticipant @stevei]

Hi,

What other options are there for buying cast iron? Does anyone know where CES source from? Is it http://www.unitedcastbar.com whom I think are in Chesterfield?

Thanks,

Steve

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Jason,

I have in my hand the invoices concerned, raised 2 months apart. The "old" CES did not charge VAT on the prices shown for the same exact goods.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, as far as I'm aware CES always included VAT on their web site prices, whereas their catalogue prices did not.

Regards Nick.

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

I hope the former owners of CES who it seems have decided to take early retirement can now enjoy a less stressful way of life.

Like many I have always received good service from CES and hope the new owners provide the same service, prices charged of course may determine their success or failure.

Emgee

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Looking in their catalogue which I downloaded a few months ago it states clearly that they do charge vat and at the side of most pages in it they state all prices exclude VAT. On some pages there isn't enough room to show it.

John

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[ianjParticipant @ians]

Looking on their WEB site this is stated : – "Please note all prices shown here appear to be different to our catalogue prices as all prices contained here contain VAT, prices in our catalog are all plus VAT."

Does this explain the confusion?

Ian

[Graham Williams 5Participant @grahamwilliams5]

Old CES was a good supplier always bought con rod Dural from them. This time around 3×12 in 3/8in cost ?6.50 postage and took 5 days to travel 6 miles. Nearly doubled the cost of the metal. Would have been cheaper to get the gas guzzler out.I’ll vote with my feet

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Postage has been that flat rate for some time from CES, always going to seem expensive if you buy one item. A lot of the suppliers have flat rate charges upto a set weight. I bought 500mm of 2" EN8 the other day and that cost £6.50 for postage as well.

It would be interesting if KWIL can let us know how he gets on with other suppliers as the new owners may just be charging teh current going rate where the old owners faced with the possibility of not having a buyer for the business were running down old stock.

J

[Graham Williams 5Participant @grahamwilliams5]

For a 'bigger' order last time with CES postage was less than £4.if I recall correctly, If the postage is applied at a fixed rate it should be made clearer either verbally, I placed the order over the 'phone, or on the web site. Cost of small bits is high enough as it is, I hear all the arguments as to why, without these high p&p charges adding to it. Some suppliers on a well known auction site do the same, I always avoid them. There are some fantastic suppliers to the model engineering fraternity, price, delivery, service I always use them that have that approach without fail.

 

Edited By Graham Williams 5 on 21/04/2016 08:38:45

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I have no personal experience of buying from C.E.S. [old, or new], but I do have a habit of reading the Terms and Conditions of suppliers of interest.

So here's some simple evidence:

2012 Catalogue

Current web-page

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 21/04/2016 09:10:04

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Most web sites don't tell people about postage costs until they check out. Something that annoys me but it's usually done that way. Ebay being the exception where sellers are encouraged to offer free postage.

I regularly post items of all sorts of weights. One thing is very noticeable of late – prices have increased by rather a lot who ever is used. Do people expect retailers to absorb that ? The catalogue is very clear on postage charges – reserve the right to charge more. Not surprising really as there can be an extreme variation in weight. Weight is all carriers tend to care about of late along with a max volume.

I've visited CES twice. I suspect there has been another change of ownership since the first visit or the person I talked to then took a back seat. At that point they kept a lot of stock. No where near as much as old Reeves though but plenty of cast iron. I didn't get to see any of it the 2nd time. It was more like going to a shop but no display counter.

Sorry folks but some people are just bleating about life. Maybe best for the rest of use to just get on with our lives.

PS. On the first visit the man explained how he had to wreck his wonderful rotary table design so that the main casting would fit in the gap on a Myford 7. It used to be designed to be made on a boxford.

John

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[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

The former owner, knowing they were passing on the business may have found an opportunity to de-register for VAT, perhaps because they knew they would only trade for a partial year.

We should be congratulating the new owner and wishing them well.

Although there appear to be many suppliers of stock materials in 'hobby quantities' if you leaf though the ads in ME and MEW that is pretty much a complete list. Lose them, and we are left with pot luck in the local stockholders or Ebay with a distinct lack of specialist items and materials.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

P.S.

I see that they have moved from Leafy Staffordshire to Tipton, about 1/2 mile from the Black Country Living Museum. There's a new excuse to pay a visit and save on postage

Neil

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Did anyone compare the 'old' prices prior to the sale with other supplies at the time ?

I did and they were cheap compared to the others. So it's more than possible the old owners were working off an old stock price list and new owners are just working in line with current suppliers.

You will always pay a premium for small bits and VAT and postage will always double the cost. Answer is to either go shopping or visit shows.

Even better for the whingers is to buy a whole bar, keep what you want and sell the rest on at just below what others are selling it for and make a killing. It must be easy because everyone says it is.

[Graham Williams 5Participant @grahamwilliams5]

Michael's link is illuminating. but as I said I placed the order over the 'phone and no mention was made about the postage charges. Naively I presumed it would be in the order of other suppliers I use, but an £8.50 order increased to £18 for a small order of very light weight materials is eye watering. Making the point about high costs, as did KWIL, is in my view not bleating about life. Perhaps I am living in the past when most things were available cheaply and easily but I would not then, as of now, expect suppliers to constantly absorb increasing costs but the actual cost to deliver using the PO was nowhere near the charge made. Please get on with your life AJohnW, send whatever weights to whomever you want, I'll take care from here on in to be wary of who I deal with.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

The issues of handling and carriage under the postal system within the U.K. is complex.

Sellers decide their own policy.

New prices and changes in Royal Mail policy came into effect on 29 March 2016. To give you an idea of 'real' core carriage cost, have a look at this link to Royal Mail price guide for business account holders. On this page, click on fifth item down: 'Price changes for business customers'. once that section is expanded, click on 'Business price guide' which opens a pdf document.

Once you open the 'Business price guide' pdf, the pages of interest are pages 6 and 7. These two pages have a direct baring on the 'real cost' to business, in addition to packaging, human labour, credit/debit card processing and overhead costs. When sellers say 'carriage costs', most mean inclusive.

The real cost increase which affects U.K. sellers is for low value, low weight, above 25mm in one of the dimensions.

Take for example a person orders only a 2mm x ER25 collet. packed weight is about 90grams. BUT the diameter is greater than 25mm. If the seller was able to send by large letter post, the postage would be 64p for 2nd class and 80p for 1st class. However, as the dimension is over 25mm in diameter, he will have to send it by small parcel post, where costs are £2.57 for 2nd class, or £3.07 for 1st class. Big difference.

This is where costs have gone up. As mentioned earlier, the seller makes his own decision on what element of handling and carriage he wishes to absorb. Then the buyer decides what he wants to do.

Ketan at ARC.

[ManofkentParticipant @manofkent]

I have this week ordered and had delivered some steel and brass stock from CES. It was delivered very quickly, unlike my experience of the old CES. I thought all charges were reasonable. So I am one satisfied customer for the new CES and will use them again.

John

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

OK just rung my supplier as as a guy off the street, no discounts that 3" x 3/8" bar in 4M length, that's 13' will be £33.00 collected but less vat. £39.60 inc VAT.

So one foot which Graham needed is £3.05 all in

So buy a bar, use what you need and those spare 12 lengths at 1 foot sold for £10.20 [ £8.50 + VAT ] are worth £122.40. deduct your original purchase price of 39.60 and you are into a profit of £82.80 plus a length of free material.

There your are – go make your fortune………………

[Graham Williams 5Participant @grahamwilliams5]

That's a thought John, who's your supplier, might be interesting. The bars were in fact 3/8" diameter x 12" long Dural so presume less than your figure, but no matter. Have already got a fortune, took me many years and a lot of hours every week as well as not paying over the odds for anything. Might have been an interesting hobby to fill the time in if I was younger but will leave it to those in it already who charge at a reasonable level I'm willing to pay.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Ketan made an interesting point. RM / PF seem to set the bench mark. I always use parcel2go or parcelmonkey and even their prices have increased over the past year or so.

ParcelMonkey is usually a good idea if items need insuring.

The only things I sell by the way are my older unused these days big boyx toys.

John

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