Case hardening powder, any advise?

[jimmy bParticipant @jimmyb]

I need to case harden a few small items, (6mm dia x 30mm). They only need hardening on one end. Normally I'd just use silversteel, but I just used mild steel, it's all I had at the time.

So I've bought some of this stuff off Ebay

**LINK**

The instructions say to heat to 800-900 deg C and put in the powder, leave for half hour and quench. I was expecting to have to reheat and quench.

Has any one used this powder?

Thank you

Jim

[jimmy bParticipant @jimmyb]

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I have the same stuff. Usually heat to bright red and dunk in the powder and stirr it about, lift out and heat back up then quench. You can heat & dunk more than once if you want a deeper case as each time adds more carbon.

I don't leave it for that long, no point on a small item as it will have cooled after a min or so. and certainly would not need quenching.

Best to put it in a metal tin so you don't melt the pot if the part touches it.

Edited By JasonB on 19/04/2018 07:26:47

[Martin Johnson 1Participant @martinjohnson1]

I had some cheap(ish) nondescript case hardening powder from one of the well known ME suppliers. I could not get any case hardening with it. I even tried making a box out of large screwed pipe fittings, filling with item + powder, heat ad nauseam, then dunk – but still no joy.

Purchased proper Kasenit and had no further problems. This needs heat to bright red, dip in and it forms a sort of crust over the item. Heat a bit more, then dunk. Repeat as required.

You get what you pay for I suppose – Caveat emptor.

Martin

[jimmy bParticipant @jimmyb]

Thank you!

Pretty much what I was I thinking Jason. I'll have a go later and report my findings!

Thank you too Martin, hopefully it'll work out! Its one of those annoying little jobs that, if I'd made it from the proper stuff, it'd be done now!

Jim

[Douglas JohnstonParticipant @douglasjohnston98463]

Is proper Kasenit still available, I thought the health and safety people had that banned a long time ago.

Doug

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Douglas Johnston on 19/04/2018 09:43:02:

Is proper Kasenit still available, I thought the health and safety people had that banned a long time ago.

Doug

I believe it was banned some time ago by H&S people who were ignorant of chemistry. It contained Sodium Ferrocyanide which is not poisonous and is available in food grade! They confused it with the very poisonous HCN, NaCN, etc.

It should still be available as food additive E535.

Russell

Edited By Russell Eberhardt on 19/04/2018 10:07:19

[colin hawesParticipant @colinhawes85982]

My understanding is that the second heat is to refine the grain structure of the component. The part would be allowed to cool after the carburising and then hardened in the usual way .Colin

[David TaylorParticipant @davidtaylor63402]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 19/04/2018 10:04:01:

It should still be available as food additive E535.

Are you saying food additive E535 is usable as Kasenit? I've never figured out where to get Kasenit.

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

The great thing about Kasenit was that you could heat your mild steel item up, roll it in the Kasenit which would stick and melt around the item heat to red and quench. The Beta product doesn’t stick like Kasenit and my guess is that is because there is no ferrocyanide in the mix. Possibly mixing E535 with Beta might bring us back to the convenience of Kasenit. Rod

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Add sugar or molasses.

Careful with ferrocyanate in larger quantities, it can release cyanide if exposed to acids. Not enough to be an issue in food quantities.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by David Taylor on 19/04/2018 10:45:19:

Are you saying food additive E535 is usable as Kasenit? I've never figured out where to get Kasenit.

It should work on its own but I suspect the original Kasenit recipe also included some form of free carbon such as carbon black or ground charcoal as I seem to remember it being a grey colour.

Russell

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 19/04/2018 11:13:30:

Careful with ferrocyanate in larger quantities, it can release cyanide if exposed to acids. Not enough to be an issue in food quantities.

Hmm – doesn't the stomach contain hydrochloric acid??

Russell

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 19/04/2018 11:13:30:

Add sugar or molasses.

Careful with ferrocyanate in larger quantities, it can release cyanide if exposed to acids. Not enough to be an issue in food quantities.

The beta contents are Molasses, Charcoal and Sodium Carbonate Solution so why add more molasses?

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

Wasn't LBSC's advice for case hardening something like this?
"get your old boots, cut into strips of leather and pack them around the item in an iron box, seal with fire clay and put in the fire, leave overnight until cool."

nuff said?

[Martin Johnson 1Participant @martinjohnson1]

Just been to look out the good pot of case hardening compound. It is Blackgates own brew, and the tin says it contains Ferrocyanide. Can't remember just when I bought it, but less than 10 years ago for sure, probably more like 5 years.

Apologies for claiming it was Kasenit, but it does handle just like Kasenit.

Martin

[jimmy bParticipant @jimmyb]

It’s worked! Bit mixed results, but definitely case hardened! The powder sticks quite well.

I heated the parts, shoved them in the powder for a bit and then reheated before quenching. The powder stuck better than expected! I’ll be investing in a bigger tub for sure!

Thanks for the input.

Jim

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Some for sale here…

**LINK**

George.

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

Posted by mechman48 on 19/04/2018 17:50:20:

Some for sale here…

**LINK**

George.

Wow. Do people really pay nineteen quid for an empty tin?

Brian

[RobinParticipant @robin]

It would seem I have kept mine too long, the can is strating to dissolve

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Robin on 19/04/2018 22:35:17:

It would seem I have kept mine too long, the can is strating to dissolve

Can't be much cop, if it can't protect its own tin

[RobinParticipant @robin]

Flog it on e-Bay real quick?

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

My Blackgates 'cover version' is eating its way through its tin as well. I was pondering on a better containment solution as I saw it today. Jam jars are out because of the metal lids. Need to find a non-recyclable plastic container.

PS:- With The Blackgates stuff, like the original Kasenit, a longer heat soak results in a deeper case depth. It's carbo-nitriding rather than just carburising, but the principal's the same.

Edited By Mark Rand on 19/04/2018 23:13:42

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

I seem to recall heating to red heat and plunging into manky old sump oil as one route

You need to plunge in the correct direction to prevent warping

[Douglas JohnstonParticipant @douglasjohnston98463]

Now I had better search my workshop for empty tins, they seem to be worth a fortune. Where did I put that old baked bean tin?

Doug

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