Carcinogenic welding fumes: who knew?

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Who knew that welding fumes have been listed as a Class 1 carcinogen, on par with tobacco, asbestos and silica? I must have missed that memo.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-22/welding-warning-workers-exposed-to-carcinogens/104112530  

Not that I do much welding, and it is always outside due to fire risk concerns. But more of a worry for those in colder climes welding inside. Be sure to open doors and windows and have a good fan going.

I knew that welding fumes were not good for you but not that they were this bad. Has this issue been raised in the UK?

And speaking of silica, watch out for those kitchen counter tops if doing any renovation work etc https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-13/engineered-stone-ban-discussed-at-ministers-meeting/103224362

[Hopper]

On 22 July 2024 at 06:40 Hopper Said:

Who knew that welding fumes have been listed …

I knew that welding fumes were not good for you but not that they were this bad. Has this issue been raised in the UK?

And speaking of silica, watch out for those kitchen counter tops if doing any renovation work….

Amazing if news that welding fumes are dangerous had only just reached Australia, but I think the risks are as well-understood there as anyone else.  Or at least by anyone who has researched the subject.   Lots of welding in the Cutting Edge Australia videos, and Kurtis takes suitable precautions, including wearing a hose ventilated helmet.

The problem of course, is that Australia has noticed many paid welders haven’t been trained, and a fair proportion of them weld for hours, day after day, in confined spaces, all factors that massively increase the risk.      In contrast, the short well-spaced exposures to welding fumes experienced by amateurs are unlikely to cause trouble, assuming no-one is foolish enough to weld a Galvanised bucket.   Or Cadmium plated steel.   A quote from Hopper’s first link:  “Professor Slevin said it was important to note that just because someone welded, it did not mean they were going to become sick.”

What should a government do about health damage caused by Slack Alice employers and employees?   Should they accept that tax-payers will pick up the bill when people are made ill, or should they act to mitigate the problem with the tools available to them: anything from circulating a few safety pamphlets, to making processes and materials illegal, or installing a stiff regulatory regime with certificates, inspectors, big-fines, and court cases.   Or warn citizens that they will have to pay their own medical bills, even if their employer profited by cost-cutting health and safety.

Nothing particular special about Australia noticing welding might be a problem.  All countries have episodes in which they suddenly realise some example of large-scale bad practice needs attention.   Like Brits finding their tasty beefy ready-meals contained horse-meat contaminated by equine steroids and antibiotics!

Dave

 

 

 

 

[Sonic EscapeParticipant @sonicescape38234]

I wonder if there is a difference between stick welding and MIG or TIG. In the first case of course all that flux evaporates. I never used MIG/TIG but is not just molted metal and inert gas? Or the evaporated dirt or rust/oxides are bad?

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Sonic, in stick welding, not all the flux evaporates, as it removes oxides and other impurities and then forms the slag on top of the weld, which prevents the red hot weld oxidizing as it cools, but the process does produce a lot of smoke and fumes, and an extraction array should be used fairly close but not right up to the weld pool, to draw the smoke and fumes away from you. Welding was a largest part of my day jobs that I had over my life times work, and at times that would be one or more weeks at a time, but also could go a whole month without doing much welding at all, and in most cases good extraction was used, but I do all of my welding at home outside, but will avoid doing any on a very windy day, as this can cause porosity in the weld, by blowing away the shielding gases around the weld pool.

Regards Nick.

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

On 22 July 2024 at 06:40 Hopper Said:

Who knew that welding fumes have been listed …

I knew that welding fumes were not good for you but not that they were this bad. Has this issue been raised in the UK?

And speaking of silica, watch out for those kitchen counter tops if doing any renovation work….

Amazing if news that welding fumes are dangerous had only just reached Australia, but I think the risks are as well-understood there as anyone else.  Or at least by anyone who has researched the subject.  …

Nothing particular special about Australia noticing welding might be a problem.  …

 

 

 

 

Australia noticed and acted – as the article says, in 2017– it is just that I had not noticed! As I said, I was aware breathing welding fumes was not a good idea, but had no idea they were a Class 1 carcinogen on par with asbestos etc. That is a whole higher league than just being bad for you.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Always, on the rare occasions that it is needed, welding is done outside, so well ventilated.

Especially if anything is galvamised.  The fumes are terrible.

Howard

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

I always grind the zinc off before welding if it is galvanised. I at least was aware that is some particularly nasty stuff.

Sonic: I believe TIG and MIG would also be hazardous. The article I linked to mentions that gasses and airborne particles from the molten metal itself are hazardous. It is not just the flux that causes the problem, apparently.

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

It’s sensational ‘news’, but characteristically uninformative. I’m happy to believe that some welding fumes are carcinogenic, but which constituents of the fumes are the dangerous ones? The fumes’ components will depend on welding method, materials, fillers, fluxes, etc. Outdoors sounds like a good idea, except I mostly TIG weld and braze, and it’s windy here… Oh, and don’t forget radioactive thoriated tungstens: it’s ‘only’ alpha-emission, but alpha emission is intensely ionizing, and its short range is no protection when you breathe in dust from grinding it. Alternatives exist.

[Kiwi Bloke]

On Kiwi Bloke Said:

It’s sensational ‘news’, but characteristically uninformative. I’m happy to believe that some welding fumes are carcinogenic, but which constituents of the fumes are the dangerous ones? …

Nothing sensational about it. Just reporting the stats from the latest survey – which reveals an appalling lack of workplace health and safety compliance in the field — and quoting various experts on the subject. To be fair, it is a general news article, not a specialised engineering journal article. That is why it leads off with the story of one welder’s personal experience, putting a human face on an otherwise possibly boring numbers story for the average non-engineer reader.

Details of exactly which elements of what type of welding were most hazardous etc would have been thrashed out in 2017 when the legislation was formulated. So that is not news in 2024 (except to people like me who missed it all!) but the current survey of welders quoted in the story is the current news.

[JuddyParticipant @juddy]

Any fume will cause health issues and those produced by welding and grinding which can be a complete mixture of metals, flux, dirt, oils and gases are obviously not going to be good for you. This is all well documented in the HSE web site and has been a focus point of the HSE for a number of years.

 

https://www.hse.gov.uk/welding/health-risks-welding.htm

 

[mrcharlyParticipant @mrcharly]

The attitude in australia (apart from on union sites) is pretty laid back. I grew up using chainsaws, etc on a farm; came to the UK and someone said something about chainsaw trousers. “What are they?” saeth I, and receive incredulous looks.

It is no surprise to me that there has been a lax attitude to welding fumes down under.

[Kiwi Bloke]

On Kiwi Bloke Said:

I’m happy to believe that some welding fumes are carcinogenic, but which constituents of the fumes are the dangerous ones? The fumes’ components will depend on welding method, materials, fillers, fluxes, etc. …

All fumes are dangerous to air breathing organisms!  Over millions of years of mammals breathing mostly clean air, lungs haven’t evolved to deal with problem atmospheres.

Inert particulates of the right size and shape cause cancer, and many of the particulates produced by welding and brazing are far from inert.  Depending on the job, expect a witches brew of Lead, Copper, Zinc, Cadmium, Tin, Silver, Iron, Boron, Fluorine, Chlorine, and hydrocarbons plus whatever alloying elements are present in steel.     Further, because the lungs have to work harder, the likelihood of cancer is increased if the Oxygen content of breathed air is diluted by otherwise harmless shield gases – Argon and Carbon Dioxide.

Good news is that breathing the witches brew in small quantities is rarely harmful.   It’s persistent high exposures that wreck lives.  Tobacco is the same: the risk of smoking one cigarette a day is trivial compared with smoking 60!

Dave

 

 

 

 

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