Carbide Insert decode

[Will NobleParticipant @willnoble66529]

[Will NobleParticipant @willnoble66529]

Starting again, almost – but not quite – from scratch, I find myself bedazzled by the plethora of carbide tipped cutting systems in use today compared with 15 years ago. In those days I had three inserted tools, one for surfacing and two boring bars. I was given them and they were all Valenite. The rest were HSS, with a couple of brazed tip carbide items for the heavy stuff.

Now there are dozens and dozens, some VERY cheap and probably VERY poor durability.

I've looked around for a decode and compatibility chart, can find several that do some aspects but none that provide a reasonably comprehensive chart, or table.

What does everyone use as a reference/decode/database, or chart?

Will

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

Hi Will

Start learning more at this link

**LINK**

Emgee

[Rik ShawParticipant @rikshaw]

Hello Will –

I mostly use this:

**LINK**

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

The nomenclature is defined in an ISO standard. So you can find explanations from most of the big suppliers and the primary part of the designation tells you a lot of what you need to know. They are cross compatible to a fair degree. However:

• There are different insert types for turning and for milling.
• Each manufacturer has its own variations, grades and detail geometries.
• US suppliers use a variation on the numbering system to account for their imperial measurements.

I tend to default to Korloy or Mitsubishi but there are quite a few reputable alternatives, mainly Japanese, Korean or German. The links here point to Korloy.

Murray

PS – whenever this comes up, Rik pastes the link to Carbide Depot. And I point out that that is a US site with imperial inserts (and part numbers). We live in the rest of the world where the metric system prevails. The part numbering is different.

Edited By Muzzer on 17/05/2018 10:01:13

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I tend to use the one in MSC's virtual catalogue, if you put pages 362 &363 on double page spread its easy to follow

Edited By JasonB on 17/05/2018 12:24:28

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Posted by Will Noble on 17/05/2018 08:22:55:

…Now there are dozens and dozens, some VERY cheap and probably VERY poor durability….

I have to confess I have not had poor durability from my ones, but I admit it is the luck of the draw whether you get an insert with the tool that's suitable for the job in hand. This thread: **LINK** showed the dramatic effect of correct & incorrect inserts in use in the same tool. In one case the face mill was unusable, and in the other it worked like a dream. You could be mistaken in putting the whole blame down to a poor tool, when it's just unsuitable inserts.

Part of the problem is that more choice gives the opportunity to make more bad choices, and it's up to us to learn enough to make good ones instead.

You wouldn't do to badly to look at MEW of the last couple of months where (for lathe tools) Neil went through the nomenclature of ones suitable for use on smaller machines. Failing that, look at the ArcEurotrade range that's up for sale. The Arc ones are probably all Chinese made, and look similar or identical to the ones available on E-bay, and none the worse for it. I am pretty convinced China is passing out of the 'make it – regardless of quality' phase and into the 'trying to increase quality and make durable items' phase. Same as Japan & S Korea did in the past. I think we're at the relatively short point where quality is good enough and price is still low that both Japan and S Korea showed 40 and 20 years ago respectively. Blink & you'll miss it…

Regards,

Richard.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

If only someone wrote a guide for MEW

From my series sponsored by Arc Euro Trade, for the pictures see MEW 264:

Insert Codes

There is a standard code for describing inserts, typically four letters followed by a number. The full code is too complex to detail here, so as an example let’s look at a typical insert that suits smaller lathes: CCGT 060204, photo 9:

Shape – C: 80-degree diamond, this give a well-supported tip that can work into a 90-degree corner. Some other useful shapes are S – square as shown in photo 6; R – round; T – equilateral triangle and V – a long-thin diamond shaped tool intended for CNC profile turning but useful for delicate work.

Clearance – C: 7-degrees; a good compromise between good support for the cutting edge and ample clearance.

Tolerance – G: This is the tolerance of various measurements of the insert. The tolerance letter can be confusing as the tolerance reflects other properties of the insert. The two you are most likely to encounter are G and M. M is a general use moulded insert, while G is ground further into specific shape (e.g. Top rake for additional tolerance for specific application, and so will cost more than the M moulded inserts. Both types are available coated for better wearing properties, or un-coated or polished for the G type. In the hobby environment, M type are generally used for machining of steel, stainless steel and cast iron. The polished G type with ground edges, are ideal for cutting aluminium, brass and other non-ferrous metals.

Hole/Chipbreaker – T: A 40-60-degree double countersunk hole (it has to match the screw used by your toolholder) and a single-sided chipbreaker.

Cutting edge length – 06: 6 millimetres, in this case one side of our diamond.

Thickness – 02: This is 3/32” or 2.38mm.

Corner radius – 04: In this case 0.4mm. For hobby machines corner or nose radius of 04 – 0.4mm (for finishing) or 08 – 0.8mm (for general use) are suggested. Finer radius than this, such as 00 – sharp point, 01 – 0.1mm and 02 – 0.2mm should generally be avoided as they are more suited for use at very high speeds on industrial CNC machines with high rigidity. If used on hobby machines, such inserts are more likely to chip easily.

Toolholder Codes

Some, but not all, the codes used for inserts are used for toolholders, in particular a simpler scheme is used for the clamping method.

Photograph 10 shows the codes on the SCLC-R1010E06 and SCLC-L 1010E06 toolholders we saw in photo 5. These toolholder codes break down as:

Clamping method – S: A screw fitting, other styles are various types of clamp and pin.

Shape – C: 80-degree diamond, this matches up to the tip code.

Holder style – L: This is the way the toolholder presents its cutting edge to the work. An ‘L’ toolholder essentially offers the 80-degree insert so it can cut freely into a 90-degree corner. Unlike the knife tool this gives an ideal geometry for both turning and facing with the same tool, which is why this style of toolholder is so popular.

Clearance angle – C: 7 degrees, again this matches the insert.

Handedness – L or R: clearly left or right, there are also N or neutral toolholders, photo x.

Height and width of shank – 1010: the shank of the tool is 10mm by 10mm, this suits the SC4 510, 0808 shank (8mm) toolholders work well with mini-lathes.

Length of holder – E: 70mm, this is rarely critical but shorter holders suit smaller lathes and longer holders can be ‘overhung’ to extend their reach. A is very short (32mm) and Q is 250mm, so if your chosen size is not available a letter up or down will usually work.

Cutting edge length in mm 06 – 6 millimetres, this must match the insert.

The shape, hole, cutting edge length and clearance are matched to the toolholder, but it is usually possible to use inserts with different tolerances, corner radiuses and even thicknesses in the same toolholder.

Inserts are sometimes sold without the corner radius being specified. It is worth checking as smaller numbers are suitable for machining fine work and sharp internal corners, while a larger corner radius makes it easier to get a good finish and leaves a distinct fillet in a corner.

It is also possible to get carbide inserts with a ‘wiper tip’, this is the equivalent of an HSS tool with the tip stoned to have a small flat on it, and gives an excellent surface finish.

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

These are my main inserts for my Myford lathe and what I turn. This little insert is quite amazing. It does outer turn, fits my small boring bars, and will cut everything from Al to bearing races, including Ti. Technically it is a stainless steel grade,CCGT060202MP-CK-PR1425

My other mainstay turning insert is the TNGG160402R-S PR1125 (Wonder Insert) called a Wonder insert by the NZ seller. It really is just that. Like the other little insert, it will cut all materials including bearing races, and Ti. I mainly just get the R0.2mm inserts, as I often need a fairly sharp corner for so many things. The seller I buy from also does sell single inserts as well, so very helpful to the model market. I find that the smaller radius has less tool pressure loading. As long as the feedrate is 25% of the tool radius, it will give a very good surface finish..

For the DCMT11 holder I use these, they are an AL specific turning insert, but as long as the feedrate is not too high, cut steel very well also. Just awesome with plastics, as they are very sharp.

The last surprise was this 8mm( R4) button turning insert. I thought that it will chatter like no tomorrow and give a poor surface finish. But it comes up looking like a mirror. This I used on the bearing holder for the sensitive drill adaptor. Works really well on Al, not yet tried on steels yet.

I have given up on buying cheap. With the Mitsubishi inserts, the VP05RT grade is very similar to the Kyocera PR1425 grade and the PR1125 grade. The VP15RT is not as hard a coating.

Neil

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

Will, have you purchased the toolholders yet ?

When i switched over to insert tooling i made the mistake of buying a toolholder kit without thinking about the types of insert they used , I ended up with a set of holders that used three different inserts and mostly only use two of the holders out of a set of six anyhow .

If you purchase left hand , right hand toolholders and a boring bar that all use the same insert you can really economise on the inserts and usually use a worn insert in the opposite hand toolholder to get more use from it .

The only other insert you would need is for a parting tool .

It can be a bit bewildering looking at all the types of inserts which have been designed mostly because of the boom in cnc machining and are for taking heavy cuts on powerful machines – which our machines are not !

[Will NobleParticipant @willnoble66529]

Wow! Thanks, every body. Lots to digest from the links and posts, alongs with charts to peruse. Muzzer's caveat reference Rik's link to the US site is noted. I've found and read the article suggested by Richard and bookmarked all the links for a bit of reading.

Neil Wyatt's post almost does it without further reference Thank you.

I have a Canela SDNCN2020 facing tool (the only one) that came with the lathe. It takes DCMT inserts and I bought a boring bar and a SDJCR1616 rightward surfacing tool at Doncaster that takes the same type/size for the very reason XD 351 says – to cut down on stock range. It would seem my instincts weren't too far off but what sparked this question was looking at all the options and thinking 'what a minefield, when you don't have the basics'.

That little selection now gives me the basics, I think. The tool bits Neil Lickford listed gives me a clue to the grades I'll be after. His second photo, the PR1125, looks remarkably similar to the one that I used in the little Valenite holder I had all those years ago. It didn't have a central clamp screw, it sat on a pin and was locked from the side by a wedge, held in by a screw, if I remember right. It got used for just about everything short of boring holes.

A largish, 20mm shank Sandvic boring bar with triangular inserts came to me, so it seemed silly to refuse, I know I'll end up using it quite a lot and the inserts now seem fairly simple to find.

Having heeded warnings about QC T2 toolholders, I checked those on offer at Doncaster and noted the RDG variety seemed well finished and to fit the QC post very well. I now have four holders to play with. More needed.

In the midst of all this, I need to find some butt welded HSS tools. In the past I used a Myford set. A bit diminutive on my old Student, more so on this Master but still very useful. I think a new set is in order.

The only wish list bits I couldn't get at Doncaster were any of the D1-4 things. RDG, amongst others, stock it but hadn't any there. I guess it is, after all, a Model Engineers Exhibition and my stuff is a bit on the large side for that.

Once again, thank you, everyone.

Will

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

Will,

Keep a look out on ebay sometimes the inserts you want will pop up at a good price and be from a known quality manufacturer .

For what we do even the cheap inserts are ok but i would consider buying the best wuality holders you can afford .

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