Can you recommend a UK supplier for good quality “mill board”?

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 04/06/2021 09:53:40:

Well at least we now know what’s special about Millboard:

MichaelG.

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Edit: This may be more cost-effective than buying the current [2003] version of the standard:

**LINK**

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 04/06/2021 10:00:41

My browser (Brave) can't open this link.

J

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by JasonB on 14/06/2021 13:25:55:

Can you make the core from one layer each of 1.0mm and 1.5mm which with the other items would give the total you desire.

Or if you want to make sure the structure is balanced then two of the 1.0mm with something 0.5mm in the middle of the sandwich.

Hmm… 1.0 +1.5mm isn't completely impossible, but it would mean fundamental changes to other parts of the design. Moreover if the product went into production the unwanted added complexity would add unwelcome cost.

So, yes, if all else fails… I'll guess I'll have to have another think about it but it would be must better to get two layers of mill board of the correct thickness!

J

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 14/06/2021 14:21:42:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 04/06/2021 09:53:40:

Edit: This may be more cost-effective than buying the current [2003] version of the standard:

**LINK**

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 04/06/2021 10:00:41

My browser (Brave) can't open this link.

J

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Then [if you want it] you will need to choose between using another browser, finding another source, or buying the 2003 version.

MichaelG.

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Edited By Michael Gilligan on 14/06/2021 14:46:33

[Stuart Smith 5Participant @stuartsmith5]

John Smith 47
 

It seems to me that all your posts are of a business rather than hobby nature. i.e. you seem to be asking everyone else to do your homework so that you can make commercial gain from their advice.

I understood that this forum was for hobbyists.

 

Edited By Stuart Smith 5 on 14/06/2021 15:28:42

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 14/06/2021 14:38:59:

Posted by John Smith 47 on 14/06/2021 14:21:42:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 04/06/2021 09:53:40:

Edit: This may be more cost-effective than buying the current [2003] version of the standard:

**LINK**

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 04/06/2021 10:00:41

My browser (Brave) can't open this link.

J

.

Then [if you want it] you will need to choose between using another browser, finding another source, or buying the 2003 version.

MichaelG.

.

.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 14/06/2021 14:46:33

I am doing my best here but…

I have already tried opening that link (ftp://ftp.iks-jena.de/mitarb/lutz/standards/dstan/13/184/00000100.pdf) with several other browsers, however being FTP:// not HTTP:// all of my browsers are deferring to Brave.

I also tried opening directly from Adobe Acrobat Reader, but it throws an error message:

I wonder what "waste" paper really means. Is that the same thing as "recycled" paper?
My understanding was that if the paper has already been used once, then when it is recycled, it now becomes called "grey board" not "mill board", and that "mill board" is a higher quality material that is "virgin" – i.e. it has never got as far as to the consumer.

@Stuart Smith – my hobby is trying to develop a product that might one day become a proper business and I am doing all this on next to zero money! Frankly until such time as I get any money whatsoever back from what I am doing I can't see how anyone could call this a business!

If you want the truth my main frustration in this thread, is that so many well-meaning folks on this forum start trying to give me design advice rather than answer a simple question.

Please know that I am not asking the question lightly. I have already spend a number of hours trying to find a suitable supplier of mill board, but I am finding it exceedingly hard to source mill board of a suitable thickness.

 

EDIT: Okay I have finally managed to get a new app "SumatraPDF" to open the PDF.
So there is a Defence Standard called "13-184/1" which refers to "Millboard And Millboard, Lead Free" which gives "requirements for millboard and lead free millboard for use in ammunition components".

I'm not entirely sure how this might help me… but I tried googling
>  "13-184/1" "millboard" UK

and 

>  "13-184/1" "mill board" UK

But got almost no results….

J

Edited By John Smith 47 on 14/06/2021 17:24:52

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 14/06/2021 17:11:35:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 14/06/2021 14:38:59:

Posted by John Smith 47 on 14/06/2021 14:21:42:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 04/06/2021 09:53:40:

…

…

…

…

If you want the truth my main frustration in this thread, is that so many well-meaning folks on this forum start trying to give me design advice rather than answer a simple question.
…

Revisiting the design is a common engineering tactic. When a 'simple question' about the material needed to satisfy a design results in unsatisfactory answers it may be worth changing the design. Always done when materials turn out to be Unobtainium, Unaffordium or illegal. Or the manufacturing process is too awkward, or has a high failure rate. Don't dismiss anything.

Another tactic is to defer the problem. When items are put into production manufacturers can resource almost anything, stuff can be specially made if necessary. In the meantime, build and test the prototype with something ordinary : who knows – the wrong thickness or a home-made laminate as suggested by Jason may be good enough.

All a prototype has to do is provide proof of concept – it doesn't have to be perfect. I suspect most products are developed after initial design, and Production Engineering is another game again. Only then dies it gets to the customer, who won't like the colour!

Don't be discouraged by suggestions. As you are finding, original design is the hardest stage in engineering. By comparison making articles from proven plans is a doddle, despite all the evidence to the contrary in my gigantic junk box.

Dave

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 14/06/2021 18:49:17:

Posted by John Smith 47 on 14/06/2021 17:11:35:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 14/06/2021 14:38:59:

Posted by John Smith 47 on 14/06/2021 14:21:42:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 04/06/2021 09:53:40:

…

…

…

…

If you want the truth my main frustration in this thread, is that so many well-meaning folks on this forum start trying to give me design advice rather than answer a simple question.
…

Revisiting the design is a common engineering tactic. When a 'simple question' about the material needed to satisfy a design results in unsatisfactory answers it may be worth changing the design. Always done when materials turn out to be Unobtainium, Unaffordium or illegal. Or the manufacturing process is too awkward, or has a high failure rate. Don't dismiss anything.

Another tactic is to defer the problem. When items are put into production manufacturers can resource almost anything, stuff can be specially made if necessary. In the meantime, build and test the prototype with something ordinary : who knows – the wrong thickness or a home-made laminate as suggested by Jason may be good enough.

All a prototype has to do is provide proof of concept – it doesn't have to be perfect. I suspect most products are developed after initial design, and Production Engineering is another game again. Only then dies it gets to the customer, who won't like the colour!

Don't be discouraged by suggestions. As you are finding, original design is the hardest stage in engineering. By comparison making articles from proven plans is a doddle, despite all the evidence to the contrary in my gigantic junk box.

Dave

Yes, all good points.

However where find myself to be conflicted though, is that I don't want to waste everyone's time analysing the full specifications & design constraints of the proposed product itself, which needless to say is rabbit-hole of quite a complicated balance of competing criteria… 

i.e. The design is fine – I am just looking for an alternative supplier who will deliver smaller volumes of the "WholesaleOnlyum".

Meanwhile, against the run of play, the supplier has relented and is now offering to do a one-off small order "to get me going", so I just order some more from them. Nonetheless I would dearly love to find an alternative supplier of 1250 to 1400 micron millboard, who is easier to deal with.

J

 

 

Edited By John Smith 47 on 14/06/2021 19:12:07

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 14/06/2021 14:33:48:

Posted by JasonB on 14/06/2021 13:25:55:

Can you make the core from one layer each of 1.0mm and 1.5mm which with the other items would give the total you desire.

Or if you want to make sure the structure is balanced then two of the 1.0mm with something 0.5mm in the middle of the sandwich.

Hmm… 1.0 +1.5mm isn't completely impossible, but it would mean fundamental changes to other parts of the design. Moreover if the product went into production the unwanted added complexity would add unwelcome cost.

So, yes, if all else fails… I'll guess I'll have to have another think about it but it would be must better to get two layers of mill board of the correct thickness!

J

Can you enlighten us about the fundamental changes that having an unbalanced 1+1.5 laminate would cause? In your stack up:

0.15 – Protective film (minimum)
0.05 – adhesive (guess)
1.50 – Gemimi Mill Board
0.05 – adhesive (guess)
1.50 – Gemimi Mill Board
0.05 – adhesive (guess)
0.15 – Protective film (minimum)

You make no mention of anything “in the middle”, and by your numbers it would add up to 2.9, just inside your sweet spot for thickness.

If you make it to production then presumably you’ll make an order for the right thickness of custom board, so no complexity there.

Dave

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by Dave S on 14/06/2021 21:25:52:

Posted by John Smith 47 on 14/06/2021 14:33:48:

Posted by JasonB on 14/06/2021 13:25:55:

Can you make the core from one layer each of 1.0mm and 1.5mm which with the other items would give the total you desire.

Or if you want to make sure the structure is balanced then two of the 1.0mm with something 0.5mm in the middle of the sandwich.

Hmm… 1.0 +1.5mm isn't completely impossible, but it would mean fundamental changes to other parts of the design. Moreover if the product went into production the unwanted added complexity would add unwelcome cost.

So, yes, if all else fails… I'll guess I'll have to have another think about it but it would be must better to get two layers of mill board of the correct thickness!

J

Can you enlighten us about the fundamental changes that having an unbalanced 1+1.5 laminate would cause? In your stack up:

0.15 – Protective film (minimum)
0.05 – adhesive (guess)
1.50 – Gemimi Mill Board
0.05 – adhesive (guess)
1.50 – Gemimi Mill Board
0.05 – adhesive (guess)
0.15 – Protective film (minimum)

You make no mention of anything “in the middle”, and by your numbers it would add up to 2.9, just inside your sweet spot for thickness.

If you make it to production then presumably you’ll make an order for the right thickness of custom board, so no complexity there.

Dave

Oh crumbs… I really, don't want to get into the intricacies of the actual design…

[I'm going to regret this!]

OK, yes if one of the layers was 1.0 instead of 1.5, then my stack would now become 2.95mm thick instead of 3.45mm thick… and yes, that would be an ideal thickness.

However My problem is that:

A) To keep the number of different part designs down, the embedded plastic parts have to have rotational symmetry (i.e. the same design of part needs to work upside down)

B) Thinning the plastic connector down to 1mm from 1.5mm may weaken it too much and permit too much flexing – I'm not sure yet.

C) I would have to change my CAD models… and my problem is that my freebie license of my CAD software (SolidWorks) has now expired and so making the change would be expensive & time-consuming.

D) Finally, a potentially greater problem is that I have already got my plastic parts (in blue) 3D printed!

So as I have conceded, if all else fails then could re-do design, however all things considered, it would be VERY much easier at this point to just get some more c.1300 micron Millboard!

J

PS Please don't even try to understand what is really going on in my diagram, because what I have drawn is only a schematic and does not represent anything like the complexity of what is really going on at the pointy ends!

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

If you put the thicker of the two sheets towards the inside edges then you will not loose any strength as the "leaves" of the hinge will still be 1.5mm. Infact they will be stronger than if they had been 1.3mm.

Edited By JasonB on 15/06/2021 07:05:47

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I don’t wish to interfere, John … but this may be of interest:

Many years ago I worked for a company which was an ‘early adopter’ of integral hinges: They found that flexing a polypropylene hinge immediately after moulding blessed it with a much longer service life. Non-flexed hinges were prone to cracking.

I have no real grasp of how the manufacturing technology might have changed since then, but [unless you are already familiar with such matters] this is probably worth a look: **LINK**

https://www.creativemechanisms.com/blog/everything-you-need-to-know-about-living-hinges

MichaelG.

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by JasonB on 15/06/2021 07:04:48:

If you put the thicker of the two sheets towards the inside edges then you will not loose any strength as the "leaves" of the hinge will still be 1.5mm. Infact they will be stronger than if they had been 1.3mm.

Edited By JasonB on 15/06/2021 07:05:47

How do you work that out?

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 15/06/2021 07:39:41:

I don’t wish to interfere, John … but this may be of interest:

Many years ago I worked for a company which was an ‘early adopter’ of integral hinges: They found that flexing a polypropylene hinge immediately after moulding blessed it with a much longer service life. Non-flexed hinges were prone to cracking.

I have no real grasp of how the manufacturing technology might have changed since then, but [unless you are already familiar with such matters] this is probably worth a look: **LINK**

https://www.creativemechanisms.com/blog/everything-you-need-to-know-about-living-hinges

MichaelG.

We are trying to avoid living hinges because they always seem to have a positional memory if left too long in one position.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Stuart Smith 5 on 14/06/2021 15:28:12:

John Smith 47

It seems to me that all your posts are of a business rather than hobby nature. i.e. you seem to be asking everyone else to do your homework so that you can make commercial gain from their advice.

I understood that this forum was for hobbyists.

While it's wrong to use the forum to 'advertise' there's no ban on discussing professional work, certainly asking for advice on interesting problems or sharing unusual jobs is welcome.

Otherwise, we would not benefit from the input of many jobbing engineers, toolmakers, vehicle restorers, CAD and CAM experts and even on member who discusses his trackers and drones for keeping tabs on wild lion populations!

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 15/06/2021 09:50:49:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 15/06/2021 07:39:41:

I don’t wish to interfere, John … but […]

We are trying to avoid living hinges because they always seem to have a positional memory if left too long in one position.

.

Sorry … I obviously misinterpreted your ‘Design Schematic’

MichaelG.

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

So there is an implicit symmetry in the stack up.
Fair enough.
can you get ~3mm board and mill the edge to the half thickness?

Thinking production you presumably will cut the parts from a larger sheet, so an additional op to thin the edges first saves a glue stack up op.

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 15/06/2021 09:46:59:

Posted by JasonB on 15/06/2021 07:04:48:

If you put the thicker of the two sheets towards the inside edges then you will not loose any strength as the "leaves" of the hinge will still be 1.5mm. Infact they will be stronger than if they had been 1.3mm.

Edited By JasonB on 15/06/2021 07:05:47

How do you work that out?

Common sense, if by doing it the way I suggested the leaf of the hinge becomes 1.5mm thick (60% of core sandwich) then that will be stronger than your original 1.25mm (50% of core sandwich)

However I would say whatever the proportions of the hinge that will not be your weak point. Most likely to be where you have a single thickness of material be that 1.5 or 1mm as shown with the blue arrow. That's if the bond between hinge and board does not fail first

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

John,

with ref to below

I wonder what "waste" paper really means. Is that the same thing as "recycled" paper?
My understanding was that if the paper has already been used once, then when it is recycled, it now becomes called "grey board" not "mill board", and that "mill board" is a higher quality material that is "virgin" – i.e. it has never got as far as to the consumer.

Each time paper and card is recycled the strands of wood fibre get shorter, so in this case 'good quality waste paper' will mean 'not recycled before'.

The strength of mill board will vary depending on the strength of the skin coating.

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by JasonB on 15/06/2021 13:27:52:

Posted by John Smith 47 on 15/06/2021 09:46:59:

Posted by JasonB on 15/06/2021 07:04:48:

If you put the thicker of the two sheets towards the inside edges then you will not loose any strength as the "leaves" of the hinge will still be 1.5mm. Infact they will be stronger than if they had been 1.3mm.

Edited By JasonB on 15/06/2021 07:05:47

How do you work that out?

Common sense, if by doing it the way I suggested the leaf of the hinge becomes 1.5mm thick (60% of core sandwich) then that will be stronger than your original 1.25mm (50% of core sandwich)

However I would say whatever the proportions of the hinge that will not be your weak point. Most likely to be where you have a single thickness of material be that 1.5 or 1mm as shown with the blue arrow. That's if the bond between hinge and board does not fail first

OK… I think we agree.

Meanwhile, Limehouse have relented and I am about to place a small(ish) order with them for 1300 microns grey coloured millboard.

Nonetheless, I would LOVE to hear of any other UK suppliers of good quality millboard/mill board who are happy to deal with sub- £100 orders of the stuff!

J

PS What 3D CAD software are you using? I am looking for a new low-cost parametric solid modeller CAD application (running on Windows 10 x64), to replace SolidWorks, that has a reasonable learning curve.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited By John Smith 47 on 15/06/2021 15:11:35

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I use Alibre Design Pro but their ATOM3D would give you most of the functions for less outlay. You can pay a one off fee or an additional yearly sub to get latest updates etc.

[Trumpet / FlugelParticipant @trumpetflugel]

Hi John. Have you tried a Google search using "Millboard for bookbinding? This may offer you some options.

HTH

Peter.

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by JasonB on 15/06/2021 15:15:31:

I use Alibre Design Pro but their ATOM3D would give you most of the functions for less outlay. You can pay a one off fee or an additional yearly sub to get latest updates etc.

Is it a Solid Modeller – i.e. Does it think in terms of enclosed solids, or (like Sketch-Up) is it ultimately a Surface Modeller and is it therefore possible for it to get confused about which is the inside and which is the outside surface of a solid?

Also is it "parametric" – i.e. It is possible to build design logic into a design? Such as say "this hole is 1/3 the way across this face" (unlike Sketchup).

Also (I forget the jargon but) does it come with a design history of each part and the ability to (on a temporary basis) unwind the steps that went into creating each part?

Also can one switch things you have done to a design on and off? And make individual parts of an assembly transparent?

Presumably there are a reasonable variety of material finishes that one can apply to a part too?

Budget – I don't mind paying say £200 to £300 for something good, but I need it to be a one-off fee, not a subscription license. I don't want to have to sign-up for monthly fees in say 5 years time next time I want to edit a design.

Background
About 3 years ago I tried about 10 different CAD packages and I hated them all! I tried most of the AutoDesk CAD applications… all horrible… Worst of all was Sketchup (for the above reasons). I spent a week of my life doing battle with Sketchup but it kept throwing errors when doing simple fillets. And once a design was complete, there was no easy way to change dimensions.

Eventually I discovered OnShape and I LOVED it! It was written by a start-up formed by ex SolidWorks employees who raise something like $64 million. At the time it was free (for small-ish files) but now it's the same price as the painfully expensive industry standard SolidWorks. :^[

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by Trumpet / Flugel on 15/06/2021 15:39:02:

Hi John. Have you tried a Google search using "Millboard for bookbinding? This may offer you some options.

HTH

Peter.

Hmmm you may possibly be onto something…

However, yes, I did search for similar things! Certainly if you search for that exact phrase "Millboard for bookbinding" you only get 2 results!

Without the quotes what is irritating is that decking (planks of wood?) keeps coming up… American stuff in dollars…

I tried clicking on "shopping" on Google and then adding "-decking" (without quotes) to the search string, but annoyingly Google ignores the negative in the Shopping section.

I also don't want board that is designed for "folding", because that stuff is too soft…

Also google seems to think that greyboard and millboard are the same thing, which doesn't help.

I'm probably doing something stupid but that's as far as I have got.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Atom should do all of those with the possible exception of surface finishes, colour, transparency and reflection can be done but that's about it. I just stick it into F360 (free) if I want to do a better rendering.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 15/06/2021 20:07:04:

Posted by Trumpet / Flugel on 15/06/2021 15:39:02:

Hi John. Have you tried a Google search using "Millboard for bookbinding? This may offer you some options.

HTH

Peter.

Hmmm you may possibly be onto something…

However, yes, I did search for similar things! Certainly if you search for that exact phrase "Millboard for bookbinding" you only get 2 results!

[…]

.

One of which was this: **LINK**

https://ia600300.us.archive.org/21/items/conservationofbo013069mbp/conservationofbo013069mbp.pdf

Although published in 1957 … it’s interesting and informative

My thanks to both of you

MichaelG.

[Author]

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