Can you recommend a UK supplier for good quality “mill board”?

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Hello

Can any of you recommend a UK supplier for good quality "mill board"?

(Clue: My understanding is that "mill board" is very much like grey board, but it is a virgin material and tends to be very much stronger. It is recyclable and it does not have to toxic/carcinogenic chemicals contained in MDF)

I need a thickness of about 1400 or 1300 microns (1.4 or 1.3mm) thickness. I have found some good stuff by the supplier has a Minimum Order Value of £330!

It is for a model-making project. Grey board is WAY too soft.

Many thanks

J

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

I've been using mill board from various sources for twenty-five years, but don't know of any UK supplier who currently sells it in 1.3mm or 1.4mm thickness or insists on a minimum order of £330. Maybe the minimum order is because you have requested a non-standard thickness.

Since you've come here for information, perhaps you'd be good enough to return the compliment and inform us who the supplier you're referring to is and provide a link to the product, regardless of whether the company is based in the UK or elsewhere.

[PackmuleParticipant @packmule]

Hi John,

Woolies have milboard @ £17.80 per sheet. It is thicker at 2.3mm 

millboard

Edited By Packmule on 04/06/2021 06:58:55

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Don't know what it's intended for but have you considered Birch Ply it goes down to 0.4mm thickness wise.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Could you not use a good quality "6 sheet" mount board as that comes out 1.4mm and is a lot more solid than grayboard. I've not knowingly used Millboard so can't compare the two.

There are quite a few paper and card modelling forums, may be worth asking on those what they use and from where.

Edited By JasonB on 04/06/2021 08:10:47

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

"Due to the bulk of these millboards shipping overseas may be prohibitive"

Now that's a proper caveat

Is it possible to buy 2.3 mm and thin it down? (assuming small piece use)

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Fwiw, the supplier who's mill board is excellent quality with a MOV of £330 is Limehouse Board Mills. Their stuff is good but their MOV is a deal breaker.

A thickness of 1.5mm would be my absolute maximum.

Birch ply is a good suggestion if all else fails, but it's basically too expensive. Fwiw, it seems as you go below 3mm thick birch ply gets more and more expensive per square metre! Some sources of it seems much more rigid than others. Sometimes its can be rather directional too. Do you have any particularly good sources?

Yes, I've tried various types of "mount board" (whatever the technical difference is I don't really know!) but they are seem fairly weak. Do you have any brand that you would particularly recommend as being stronger than most?[Fwiw, my quick & dirty test is to see how easily a board creases between 2 fingers and a thumb!]

Ady1 – no, there would be zero chance of thinning it down – the areas require are too large. I wouldn't be shipping it overseas – just UK mainlaind.

If pushed, another option I might use would be a good quality (i.e. rigid & strong!) "Tawny Board" – Double-sided Kraft paper lined grey board", which Limehouse can supply – but same MOV! But if so it must strong stuff and be between 1300 and 1400 microns (abs max 1500microns) in thickness.

TVM

J

[SteambuffParticipant @steambuff]

Hi,

What type of model are you making and what size/scale?

Have you thought about Plastikard (Slaters) this comes in various sizes.

Dave

Edited By Steambuff on 04/06/2021 09:51:22

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Well at least we now know what’s special about Millboard:

MichaelG.

.

Edit: This may be more cost-effective than buying the current [2003] version of the standard:

ftp://ftp.iks-jena.de/mitarb/lutz/standards/dstan/13/184/00000100.pdf

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 04/06/2021 10:00:41

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

You can get excellent quality mill board in 1.5mm thickness from several UK suppliers, in some cases with a minimum order of only half a sheet.

FWIW, I gave you the names of these suppliers in a previous thread of yours.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I think John may have to experiment to find exactly what he wants. 'Millboard' isn't a particular material, rather it's a generic name for a finishing, trimming or cladding product that can be made in different ways from different materials. A quick search found Millboard made of selected oak, 'wood free Millboard', Millboard made of recycled materials, and Millboard containing polyurethane, which John might consider toxic.

Whether or not an individual Millboard is 'good quality' when used for an off-piste purpose like modelling is anybody's guess. It would help to know much more about John's application, for example we only know it has to be 'strong stuff', which is meaningless in engineering terms. Does it have to bend round a particular radius, be hard or tough, resist tension, or tearing, or whatever? Does it matter if the material is brittle, or isn't waterproof? Etc, etc. John mentions millboard is recyclable: is that a requirement or an observation?

In engineering it's best to defer deciding what the solution is for as long as possible; that is don't start by deciding the answer, and work back from that. (In this case 'good quality Millboard, what Brand should I buy', when perhaps the answer is tinplate, fibreglass, or vacuum formed plastic.) Better to clearly identify the requirement, identify options that meet it, and only then chose one. At the moment only John knows what he has in mind, and why one product would be more suitable than another. For example, what is it exactly about the Limehouse Mills product that makes it's specification more suitable than other millboards?

Dave

[Andrew EntwistleParticipant @andrewentwistle]

If you could go down to 1.2mm then would fibreglass PCB material do the job? Standard thicknesses are 0,4, 0.6, 0.8, 1.0, 1.2, 1.6, 2.0, 2.4. It can be ordered machined to the desired dxf profile (usually 0.4 mm minimum radius) from a PCB manufacturer (JLCPCB, PCBWay) for as little as £10 for 5 off 100 mm x 100 mm.

Andrew.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 04/06/2021 10:37:57:

I think John may have to experiment to find exactly what he wants. 'Millboard' isn't a particular material, rather it's a generic name for a finishing, trimming or cladding product that can be made in different ways from different materials. […]

.

Hence my enthusiasm for the DEF-STAN

MichaelG.

[Paul LParticipant @paull58212]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 04/06/2021 10:37:57:

I think John may have to experiment to find exactly what he wants. 'Millboard' isn't a particular material, rather it's a generic name for a finishing, trimming or cladding product that can be made in different ways from different materials. A quick search found Millboard made of selected oak, 'wood free Millboard', Millboard made of recycled materials, and Millboard containing polyurethane, which John might consider toxic.

Whether or not an individual Millboard is 'good quality' when used for an off-piste purpose like modelling is anybody's guess. It would help to know much more about John's application, for example we only know it has to be 'strong stuff', which is meaningless in engineering terms. Does it have to bend round a particular radius, be hard or tough, resist tension, or tearing, or whatever? Does it matter if the material is brittle, or isn't waterproof? Etc, etc. John mentions millboard is recyclable: is that a requirement or an observation?

In engineering it's best to defer deciding what the solution is for as long as possible; that is don't start by deciding the answer, and work back from that. (In this case 'good quality Millboard, what Brand should I buy', when perhaps the answer is tinplate, fibreglass, or vacuum formed plastic.) Better to clearly identify the requirement, identify options that meet it, and only then chose one. At the moment only John knows what he has in mind, and why one product would be more suitable than another. For example, what is it exactly about the Limehouse Mills product that makes it's specification more suitable than other millboards?

Dave

Why do I get the feeling that whatever is suggested will not be suitable?

[john halfpennyParticipant @johnhalfpenny52803]

Traditional millboard, as formerly made by eg Jacksons of Bourne End, was a paper based dense material and quite difficult to cut. It was typically used until the 1970s for parcel shelves and untrimmed door cards for cars and trucks. Usually plain grey on one side and slightly embossed on the other with a hard wearable finish. Woolies sell the best alternative that I have found, but the term now encompasses a variety of substances.

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

I have been off-grid, hence the delay in responding.

Yes, I have already experimented with a wide variety of materials.

MY REQUIREMENTS

1. I need a material that is as broadly "eco-friendly" as possible.
"Grey board" (being made from some kind of recycled paper/"dead trees&quot is the default material for hardback books and the like but it is way too soft and creases permanently very easily. "Mill board" appears to be a virgin material that is a much better engineering material. Yes, there are many different grades – I am open to suggestions. From what I can see most suppliers just seem to call it "mill board".

2. Thickness: The walls have to be made up from 2 layers of material bonded together. The total wall thickness must be no more than 3.0mm, ideally more like 2.6 to 2.8mm thick… Hence each layer should be about 1.25 to 1.5mm thick. Any smaller or any larger will be of no use to me.

One complicating factor is that for added strength and durability I may possibly bond a layer of craft paper, or 'eco-friendly' (recyclable/biodegradable) film onto the base material.

APPLICATION
Since you ask, my application is that I am creating a sort of A4+ sized box for indoor, room temperature use. I have already tried plywood but when you get less then 3mm thick the price seems to go through the roof. Also some plywood grades seem to be vastly more flexible than others of the same thickness.

For our 'box' structure to more rigid and generally strong the better. But resisting permanent damage through bending non-elastically is much more important. i.e. It is fine to be somewhat elastic/flexible if necessary, but it is not fine to be brittle nor to crease/crumple/wrinkle when bent.

If all else fails, I would also consider "Tawny Board" i.e. Kraft double-lined greyboard. The craft paper lining on both sides seems to greatly help the overall strength of the material.

All suggestions much appreciated.

J

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 10/06/2021 19:55:42:

Since you ask, my application is that I am creating a sort of A4+ sized box for indoor, room temperature use. I have already tried plywood but when you get less then 3mm thick the price seems to go through the roof. Also some plywood grades seem to be vastly more flexible than others of the same thickness.

For our 'box' structure to more rigid and generally strong the better. But resisting permanent damage through bending non-elastically is much more important. i.e. It is fine to be somewhat elastic/flexible if necessary, but it is not fine to be brittle nor to crease/crumple/wrinkle when bent.

If all else fails, I would also consider "Tawny Board" i.e. Kraft double-lined greyboard. The craft paper lining on both sides seems to greatly help the overall strength of the material.

All suggestions much appreciated.

J

For your box, two layers of AFBG13 looks to be what you want:

https://www.johnpurcell.net/arcbox.html

It is used by the British Library and other major institutions for their archival box work.

I did link some time ago to Purcell's in the hope that you would detail your requirements to them and get appropriate suggestions back.

Frankly, if Purcell's can't supply what you need in the way of board, no-one can.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 10/06/2021 19:55:42:

…

For our 'box' structure to more rigid and generally strong the better. But resisting permanent damage through bending non-elastically is much more important. …

All suggestions much appreciated.

J

Thin and strong means suggests sheet metal, reinforced as necessary by metal angle.

• Tinplate for cheapness
• Aluminium for lightness and good electrical conductivity, think radio chassis.
• Brass for looks, corrosion resistance, brazing/soldering

They can all be papered or painted…

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 10/06/2021 19:55:42:

[…]

"Mill board" appears to be a virgin material …

.

I feel obliged to ask : Did you read the DEF-STAN ?

MichaelG.

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

This is hilarious.

I think I will stick to shoeboxes and box files for my document storage.

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

I think I would just go to the local stationers or visit Amazon and buy a really useful A4 box

John

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

@Bill Phinn

Yes, I have already had a few samples from JPP about 3 weeks ago – thank you so much for the suggestion.

Having spoken to them (James), they thought that their "JPP ARCHIVAL FOLDING BOXBOARD" (as per your link) would be too soft, as it is specifically designed to be folded and will not have the rigidity that I seek.
[No, I can't use creasing of the card in order to create a hinge for a number of of reasons – not least because such creasing has a positional 'memory' and I shall use some sort of fabric /cloth or liner material to create the hinges.]

JPP suggested their Heritage Conservation Board 1380micron, and sent me a sample of it, but it is way too soft and is for example very easily bent beyond it's elastic limit (i.e. creased!) between 2 finders and a thumb.

However much more to the point is their "Gemini Mill Board" – which is fantastic stuff!
e.g. I definitely cant bend their 1.5mm Gemini board between fingers and thumb. However my problem is that they simply don't make anything between 1.0mm and 1.5mm.

To get clear 1.0mm is too thin to have much strength and 1.5mm is too thick for my requirements.

[Part of the problem with the 1.5mm thick Gemini Mill Board is that it is unlined, and in order to make it durable and give it attractive, cleanable, moisture-resistant finish, I will need to bond some kind of paper, plastic film or book cloth onto both the sides of it once it is bonded into the 2 layers I need. And that will make it quite a lot thicker than my overall thickness (of the 2 layers) of being 3.0mm.

For example most of the protective papers & films that one can obtain from the likes of Winter & Company are between 0.15mm and 0.20mm thick. So assuming 2 layers of film – one on the inside of the box one on the outside of the box (especially allowing for a little adhesive) the total thickness in mm would be something like:

0.15 – Protective film (minimum)
0.05 – adhesive (guess)
1.50 – Gemimi Mill Board
0.05 – adhesive (guess)
1.50 – Gemimi Mill Board
0.05 – adhesive (guess)
0.15 – Protective film (minimum)

==> nearly 3.5mm (i.e. 3.45mm), which is a LONG way past my target of maximum of 3.00mm.

@SillyOldDuffer – all true. However I am trying to make something that a high volume, mass production licensee company would be interested in making, is low in cost, can easily be recycled as well as having a reasonably good strength-weight ratio.
– Steel that is tin-plated will be too heavy for its rigity
– Aluminium & brass are both too expensive

@Michael Gilligan – I googled DEF-STAN and got lots of UK MOD stuff. Is that what you meant?
I wasn't sure how to apply that to this situation.

@Roger Best – Yes, a Box file is close to it, however all the walls have to be the same thickness, and they have to be hinged accurately.

@Journeyman – Yes, I am extremely familiar with the Really Useful boxes. However they do not have collapsible side walls.

REQUEST: Please can everyone stick to my original question. I am just looking for UK suppliers of good quality "mill board"! For some reason I am finding them hard to locate through Google…

So still I need a strong Mill Board that is about 1250 to 1400 microns thick.

Cheer

J

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Can you make the core from one layer each of 1.0mm and 1.5mm which with the other items would give the total you desire.

Or if you want to make sure the structure is balanced then two of the 1.0mm with something 0.5mm in the middle of the sandwich.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 14/06/2021 13:20:27:

[…]

@Michael Gilligan – I googled DEF-STAN and got lots of UK MOD stuff. Is that what you meant?
I wasn't sure how to apply that to this situation.

 

.

NO … I posted a link to the specific document, especially for your benefit.

MichaelG.

.

Clause 4 is particularly relevant to ‘virginity’

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 14/06/2021 13:28:31

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