Can one buy pliers with parallel jaws that lock like mol

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Here's one from way back. I've had it a while and mounted as it is on a ball swivel it's very handy.

 

It carries UK Patent Nos 776142 and 731736. The tool itself proffesses to be a SPEETOG Plier Clamp and the swiveling base is marked as SPENKLIN Miniclamp manufactured in Horsham Sussex. Fully adjustable via the knurled thumb screw. The Pliers itself is welded onto the ball swivel spigot in a very neat fasion so unless the marriage was carried out by our workshop which is where I acquired it I would suggest that it was manufactured as a complete unit by SPENKLIN.

Googling Spenklin shows a number of the bases with different devices attached and the pliers as a separate unit can be seen here:-

**LINK**

I'm sure if you keep your eyes open for Speetog Plier Clamp on eBay one will come up eventually.

regards Martin

Edited By Martin Kyte on 27/05/2021 12:10:13

Edited By JasonB on 27/05/2021 12:20:53

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 27/05/2021 12:09:17:

Here's one from way back.

[…]

It carries UK Patent Nos 776142 and 731736.

.

Forgive me, Martin … but I think the first patent number should read 576142 not 776142

MichaelG.

.

.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 27/05/2021 13:27:21

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

@SillyOldDuffer – Yes, all design is a balance compromises. In this case I just wanted a 'design compromise' that locks. I already own various ones that don't.

@Anthony Knights –
1. I thought we were having an interesting conversation about tools and engineering, not attacking people's motive. If you don't enjoy the conversation please don't engage in it.

2. That little vice looks interesting. With its sharp edges, it's is obviously hopeless as a hand tool so of no use compared to this thread, however I might have a use for it as an actual vice to fit within a vice. Is it commercially available?

@Andy Cawley – No disrespect, but other users have had other experiences, that's all.
As I have said, the design of Mole vice grips looks like it would cope well with minor damage to the device in a way that the Stanley thing would not.

@pgk pgk – No, I don't have time to make my own tools. I find it extremely interesting to see what tools exist and this thread has certainly helped un-earth some exotic specimens. If exactly what I seek already exists, at a half-reasonable price, and there aren't a number of people screaming that the product is deeply flawed, then I'll buy it immediately. In this can I am about to buy one of the Stanley tools.

General comment:
Nobody is forcing any of you to read this thread!
All your criticisms about me/my motives are worthless.
I repeat: If you don't enjoy the conversation please don't engage in it.

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

@Martin Kyte – Self-evidently the jaws are closing around a pivot point and as such will not close in a TRUE parallel fashion, (with the result that by definition as you tighten the thing up, either one or the other end of the jaws will be more compressed than the other end). Interesting design, though.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 27/05/2021 14:28:13:

2. That little vice looks interesting. With its sharp edges, it's is obviously hopeless as a hand tool so of no use compared to this thread, however I might have a use for it as an actual vice to fit within a vice. Is it commercially available?

Earlier Post

e.g. This attempt at a hand-held vice ("Precision Hand Vice Work Holder" tried hard to have parallel jaws (like a vice) but that sticking out head of the adjustment screw gets in the way of access pretty badly.

So why do you like the one posted yesterday and the one from the first page of this thread you did not like?

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 27/05/2021 14:33:01:

@Martin Kyte – Self-evidently the jaws are closing around a pivot point and as such will not close in a TRUE parallel fashion, (with the result that by definition as you tighten the thing up, either one or the other end of the jaws will be more compressed than the other end). Interesting design, though.

So what? It's a pliers not a precision collet chuck. I defy anyone to close a toolmakers clamp so that it has exactly even pressure both ends of the jaws. The best milling vices hold work tighter at the bottom than the top. However there will be a position in the swinng that is correct and if the tool has been made correctly it will close to parallel. The pivot point is the adjustable bit rather than the swing of the jaws so unlike the mole wrench the jaws stay parallel in the closed position throughout the range of opening. Who cares what the angle is when it's not holding the workpiece. Not done any measurement of error due to moving the pivot point but by eye its not discernable. Solid works it yourself if you want to find out but there will be slop on the pivot by neccessity in any case.

Michael. You are right it's a 5 not a 7. The stamping is a little obscured.

regards Martin

 

Edited By Martin Kyte on 27/05/2021 15:18:27

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Hopper on 27/05/2021 03:55:16:

Posted by Anthony Knights on 26/05/2021 16:32:43:

Personally, I think this guy is a wind-up merchant who's extracting the urine.and

And I thought he was a genius inventor on the brink of a world-changing patent from one of his other threads.

Nah, I reckon he's trying to nag forum members into inventing the world-changing patent for him to exploit. That's why I've said nowt before and will say nowt more…

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by JasonB on 27/05/2021 14:50:39:

Posted by John Smith 47 on 27/05/2021 14:28:13:

 

2. That little vice looks interesting. With its sharp edges, it's is obviously hopeless as a hand tool so of no use compared to this thread, however I might have a use for it as an actual vice to fit within a vice. Is it commercially available?

Earlier Post

e.g. This attempt at a hand-held vice ("Precision Hand Vice Work Holder" tried hard to have parallel jaws (like a vice) but that sticking out head of the adjustment screw gets in the way of access pretty badly.

So why do you like the one posted yesterday and the one from the first page of this thread you did not like?

The one on the first page is attempting to be a hand-tool. As such it is essentially rubbish for lots of reasons. So is the one posted yesterday.

However, as I say, the one posted yesterday could be clamped in a vice as a vice within a vice without wobbling.

Mick B1 – it is self-evident that you know next to zero about IP, because if you did you would realise that anything that is make public (e.g. on any forum such as this) immediately become unpatentable.
Would it be too much to ask that we focus on engineering rather than snipe at people's motives? 

 

Edited By John Smith 47 on 27/05/2021 18:57:32

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 27/05/2021 18:53:15:

Would it be too much to ask that we focus on engineering rather than snipe at people's motives?

Maybe if you stop calling the suggestions given to you "rubbish" and stop "laughing out loud" at any ideas proposed, we can focus better.

The way I see it, you don't deserve any further attention…I don't know if you noticed, you have irritated quite a bunch of members who tried to help you.

[ANDY CAWLEYParticipant @andycawley24921]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 27/05/2021 14:28:13:

 

@Andy Cawley – No disrespect, but other users have had other experiences, that's all.
As I have said, the design of Mole vice grips looks like it would cope well with minor damage to the device in a way that the Stanley thing would not.

 

I am dumbfounded that you would draw such a conclusion from what appear to be the very small number of poor reviews out of over 100 excellent reviews.

As far as I can make out you have never even handled one of these devices. How on earth can you come to the conclusion, based on such flimsy evidence, that the pin you refer to will bend.

Why do you think the Mole grips will cope better than the Stanley 85-610. What is your evidence or practical experience?

if I hadn’t spent a life in manufacturing industry occasionally dealing with opinionated folk who usually didn’t know what they were talking about I could get upset by your casual “ no disrespect” remark but I won’t. Like you say, I don’t have to read your post.

Edited By ANDY CAWLEY on 28/05/2021 00:43:13

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by ChrisB on 27/05/2021 19:16:04:

Posted by John Smith 47 on 27/05/2021 18:53:15:

Would it be too much to ask that we focus on engineering rather than snipe at people's motives?

Maybe if you stop calling the suggestions given to you "rubbish" and stop "laughing out loud" at any ideas proposed, we can focus better.

The way I see it, you don't deserve any further attention…I don't know if you noticed, you have irritated quite a bunch of members who tried to help you.

@ChrisB – Gads! As I said it when the tool was first produced here that tool is not good as a hand tool for a number of reasons, not least the big red X that I added to the image shows that AS an adjustable spanner that sticking out piece will get in the way. It will also talk a lot of winding to open and close making it very slow to adjust. Also being straight rather than angle won't give good access to difficult to reach bolts… worse it wont actually clamp/lock very well – not like a Mole grip…. So I repeat AS A HAND TOOL it is IMHO essentially rubbish.

If it had a solid square base it could be used to put into a vice and that might be useful. And the one above fulfilled that.

It's not me who keeps "laughing out loud".

And it's not me who keeps having a go a WHY other people are saying what. Personally I am just trying to discuss tools not discuss personalities/motives etc.

@Andy Cawley
> As far as I can make out you have never even handled one of these devices.
No, of course I haven't handled one of these devices and certainly haven't used one. I haven't been into a hardware store for about 1.5 years due to The Plague, and prior to this thread I had never seen any such devices, as should be obvious by now. If I owned a such a device I certainly wouldn't be thinking of buying another identical one. If I had been into a store recently and had handled one I probably would have either bought one or stopped (repeatedly!) saying that I was thinking of buying one(!).

> Why do you think the Mole grips will cope better than the Stanley 85-610.
I am saying that in the event that something important start to bend out of place, that the locking mechanism in the Stanley 85-610 looks like it doesn't has much adjustment as Mole grips.

Are you seriously questioning this?

It's just that it seems to me to be a self-evident truth, because ALL the opening and shutting in Mole grips comes from the position of one adjustable screw, whereas in the 85-610 the bulk of the adjustment come from the screw near the jaw, and there is no adjustment screw at the far end of it.

Regarding reviews, I just bought two screen protectors for my mobile phone, one after the other. They both had excellent reviews – literally many hundreds/thousands of them – but both of the products themselves were absolutely diabolical. I then went back and re-read the relatively very few 1* reviews and discovered that they raised all the same points as made the darned things completely unusable.
Conclusion: Take the the negative reviews more seriously that the positive ones.

Look I'm sorry if I have caused offence by not immediately bowing to your experience and ignored all of the other opinions expressed in the various negative reviews, but is that what you are expecting?

But either way I'm not saying you are definitely incorrect about the product being extremely excellent and extremely robust, I am merely questioning this opinion in line with a small but significant number of users who managed to damage their products some of then almost immediately and beyond repair. However if I thought you were definitely incorrect, why would I keep saying that I'm about to buy the darned thing? (And they aren't cheap either!)

OK I think we've flogged this topic pretty much to death.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 28/05/2021 02:41:31:

@ChrisB – Gads! As I said it when the tool was first produced here that tool is not good as a hand tool for a number of reasons, not least the big red X that I added to the image shows that AS an adjustable spanner that sticking out piece will get in the way. It will also talk a lot of winding to open and close making it very slow to adjust. Also being straight rather than angle won't give good access to difficult to reach bolts… worse it wont actually clamp/lock very well – not like a Mole grip…. So I repeat AS A HAND TOOL it is IMHO essentially rubbish.

If you go back and read your original posting of this picture you will see it is described as a "hand VICE" so why would anyone expect a vice to act well as a spanner?

You don't seem to have the same issue of a screw sticking out the side of the one posted yesterday so that is why I was wondering what had changed. As aid it can be held in a larger vice gripping one of the brass jaws and with two blocks with half circle cutouts can be held at any angle in a vice and also rotated through 360 degrees at any of those angles. Remove the long adjusting screw and replace with a cap head as mentioned before if it will get in the way or if you want quick action then a simple over-centre cam will work well and not get in the way. Plus it's got a round handle for it's intended hand use and many a jeweller will have used one for sawing or filing usually resting it against a Vee bench hook.

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 28/05/2021 02:41:31:

So I repeat AS A HAND TOOL it is IMHO essentially rubbish.

I think you really mean AS A SPANNER …

Personally I can see it as a very useful hand tool for holding things against a bench peg. It seems to me that if one can't see that then that is through ignorance of the use-case – and is a demonstration of why people get upset. Some comments seem to come from ignorance but are stated as black and white fact. However, I find it entertaining and wouldn't want to discourage dialog.

A GOOD argument is fun for maintained conversation, but to be good both sides need to be open to modifying their opinion according to reason and should only use good reason and not fallacies. The example 'its a bad spanner', 'a spanner is a hand tool', 'its a rubbish hand tool' is a blatant logical fallacy.

I love this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

I like the tread for the tools revealed… my Amazon wish list has grown immensely. I'll keep reading.

[ANDY CAWLEYParticipant @andycawley24921]

Well said jaCK Hobson. ✅

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 27/05/2021 14:28:13:

General comment:
Nobody is forcing any of you to read this thread!
All your criticisms about me/my motives are worthless.
I repeat: If you don't enjoy the conversation please don't engage in it.

Understood. You are unique as being the only person in in the entire universe to go on my"Ignore Member" list.

[ANDY CAWLEYParticipant @andycawley24921]

Posted by jaCK Hobson on 28/05/2021 08:39:41

I love this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Ooooh now you’ve started something 👍😁✅😎

I like it👍

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

Posted by ANDY CAWLEY on 28/05/2021 10:52:33:

Well said jaCK Hobson. ✅

Thanks!

 

I didn't realise you could still get things like my King Dick spanner.

This one from Facom https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/wrenches/8764945

 

Edited By jaCK Hobson on 28/05/2021 12:48:40

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 28/05/2021 02:41:31:

> Why do you think the Mole grips will cope better than the Stanley 85-610.
I am saying that in the event that something important start to bend out of place, that the locking mechanism in the Stanley 85-610 looks like it doesn't has much adjustment as Mole grips.

Are you seriously questioning this?

It's just that it seems to me to be a self-evident truth, because ALL the opening and shutting in Mole grips comes from the position of one adjustable screw, whereas in the 85-610 the bulk of the adjustment come from the screw near the jaw, and there is no adjustment screw at the far end of it.

I think that your self evident truth is not (true that is).

On the mole grip the adjustment screw is not responsible for all the opening and shutting. The linkage is responsible for the bulk of the opening and shutting. The adjuster sets the end point for the linkage.

If you look closely, you will see that the screw adjust on the mole grips is where a fixed pivot is on the spanner, and the fixed jaw pivot on the mole grips is where the adjuster is on the spanner. The adjustment on the spanner is adequate for the maximum designed opening of the spanners jaws.

I don't know if you have ever taken an adjustable spanner to pieces, but the Jaw has a solid stop on the max opening, and the rack just drops off the end on the close side. This stops the moving jaw falling out when opened, and the massive fixed jaw stops it from falling out on the closed side. If you bend the linkage such that it wont close as far – presumably by being an unsympathetic ape – then the jaw will pass the worm further, until it hits the fixed side. I have mole grip which no longer fully shut – not because of bent linkages, but because the end of the screw has worn and it no longer presses the end point pivot far enough forwards to close the jaws fully. One day Ill fix them with a blob of weld, but the spanner does not suffer from that failure mode (as far as I can determine – i do not own one)

Remember also it is a spanner, not a clamp. Turns out that Makita also make one:model B-65470 Locking Adjustable Wrench.

Dave

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

Posted by Dave S on 28/05/2021 13:25:29:

One day Ill fix them with a blob of weld

Dave

I had an expensive mole grip and a cheap one. The threaded hole is formed from the single sheet of the handle being formed into a cylinder. On the cheap one, if you clamped really hard then the cylinder expanded and the screw slipped. On the expensive one, the join was welded where the cheap one was not. A blob of weld on the cheap one transformed it.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by jaCK Hobson on 29/05/2021 08:25:12:

Posted by Dave S on 28/05/2021 13:25:29:

One day Ill fix them with a blob of weld

Dave

I had an expensive mole grip and a cheap one. The threaded hole is formed from the single sheet of the handle being formed into a cylinder. On the cheap one, if you clamped really hard then the cylinder expanded and the screw slipped. On the expensive one, the join was welded where the cheap one was not. A blob of weld on the cheap one transformed it.

It's right to look for a welded adjustment sleeve. I saw a cheap unbranded one in a filling station shop window about 20 or 25 years ago. It had the adjustment screw thread tapped in a welded sleeve. I bought it. It's the only one I still have, and I think it's at least as good as any others I've ever used.

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

@Dave S – Yes, a number of companies seem to "make" them. [A good sign!] However they are all so similar that it looks suspiciously like they are all made in the same factory (e.g. in China) and branded differently.

Put it another way, my simple point was that the clamping strength is in a Mole is totally adjustable due to a screw thread forming an adjustable pivot point. However there is no such adjuster for the clamping mechanism in the Stanley. Instead you just tighten it to roughly where you want it using the thumb screw thing near the jaws and then finish the closing action using the levers. As such it would be easy to imagine a situation in the Stanley where you closed it as much as you could with the adjustor screw near the jaws, but where due to being slightly bent out of shape the clamping levers no longer do very much clamping.

But seriously, some of this chat is getting a little pendantic, no?

OK here goes. So in my very first post I wondered "It is possible to buy pliers that have genuinely parallel jaws which can be locked like a pair of Mole self-grip pliers?"

So yes, maybe what I technically meant was "as a spanner"… I'm not 100% sure, without looking up the word in a dictionary.
Spanner: "a tool with a shaped opening or jaws for gripping and turning a nut or bolt."

Well, I never actually specified "nuts and bolts" but yes, that would be ONE thing I might want to grip for sure. But are Mole Grip Pliers not in practice mostly used to grip nuts and bolts too…? My head is starting to spin with this…

Wait, let me look up "pliers" in a dictionary:

Pliers: "pincers with parallel, flat, and typically serrated surfaces, used chiefly for gripping small objects or bending wire."

Yes, I do want to grip (random) "small objects". Yes, objects including nuts and bolts. But can pliers be used effectively to turn nuts and bolts? Well no, not unless they are MOLE pliers, because due to its clever clamping & locking action, only a Mole seems to grip hard enough to turn a nut.

Wait, sometimes they are called "Mole Wrenches". What the heck is the definition of a wrench. It seems mean "spanner"… in American speak. So logically one might call them "Mole Spanners".

Would you call it "a vice"?
Vice: "a tool with two parts that can be moved together by tightening a screw so that an object can be held firmly between them while it is being worked on:"

Technically does that mean a pair of pliers a type of "vice"? Now my head is properly spinning.
Wait, what exactly is a "vice grip" – the dictionaries can't help us! Wikipedia takes you to "Locking Pliers" and lots of things that look like "Mole Grips"/"Mole Wrenches"/"Mole Grip Pliers", but are they designed for turning nuts and bolts?

Enough!

tldr;

Either way, I think we can agree that something that looks like it would work well as a vice but have great difficulty in getting access to hard to reach items (like nuts) due to cumbersome bits sticking out, is clearly a very different type of "hand tool" from one that would act well as a spanner.

Personally, I think this thread has now run its course. I hope my loose use of precise technical terms has not caused too much confusion or offence. Thank you everyone for all the exotic tools that have emerged!

Edited By John Smith 47 on 01/06/2021 21:10:45

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 01/06/2021 21:08:51:

…

Wait, what exactly is a "vice grip" – the dictionaries can't help us!

.

Try spelling it Vise-Grip

Now look at Wikipedia: **LINK**

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locking_pliers

MichaelG.

.

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 01/06/2021 21:39:29

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Oh look … Petersen’s 1924 patent was for a wrench

**LINK**

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search?q=pn%3DUS1489458A

MichaelG.

[ANDY CAWLEYParticipant @andycawley24921]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 05/05/2021 18:14:31:

Hello

It is possible to buy pliers that have genuinely parallel jaws which can be locked like a pair of Mole self-grip pliers?

After all the blethering what was the intended use that you hoped for this useful tool ❓

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Posted by jaCK Hobson on 28/05/2021 12:45:23:

Posted by ANDY CAWLEY on 28/05/2021 10:52:33:

Well said jaCK Hobson. ✅

Thanks!

I didn't realise you could still get things like my King Dick spanner.

This one from Facom https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/wrenches/8764945

Edited By jaCK Hobson on 28/05/2021 12:48:40

Hi, I felt sure I had still got this similar one, which was my father's, I've no idea exactly how old it is, but he had it as far back in my childhood that I can remember. My farther always referred it as a shifting spanner, it doesn't have any name on it, but I can remember it being black, although the handle end was just shiny steel through use I guess. I have had to do some repair welds on it, where it had split on the moveable jaw. Haven't used it much now though.

Regards Nick.

[Author]

Posts