Can my pillar drill be improved

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

I use a car scissor jack under the table when drilling the bigger holes. Works well, not ideal but free and easy.

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

The scissors jack must be one of the greatest inventions of all time. I used to use one together with a beer crate when I was hanging wall units.It made things so easy to handle and left my hands free to line up and drill,no messing about. I still have two of them and will never part with them,they never slip.

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

HAHA yeah I use a scissor jack if I am drilling something that needs to be quite accurate, I might look at engineering a proper solution such as triangular gusset plates as mentioned earlier.

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Posted by Steven Vine on 11/07/2017 14:38:17:

Posted by Simon Collier 1 on 11/07/2017 12:59:59:

I found the article: Re-engineering a low cost Chinese drill press, by Brian Smith, AME July 2001.

I would be interested in reading that article. What is AME?

Steve

Australian Model Engineering – AME

Geoff – Making frames to attach the Austin body to the Tilter/Rotisserie

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

I too would like to see a copy of the "improvement" article, maybe someone smarter than me, has a nifty idea that would improve the table stability.

Regards,

Andrew.

[Bob McParticipant @bobmc91481]

On the subject of 'can my pillar drill be improved' , I recently purchased a new pillar drill from a well known Mart which had a well known makers name on it… however I assume it was made in Asia somewhere.

I was expecting it to be of reasonable quality, it was certainly not cheap, my hopes were dashed when after putting it together I noticed that the quill could be shoved up & down some 1/4 of an inch without engaging the pinion rack gear, the control of the quill was not good and became a nuisance…. I complained to the supplier who did offer me some compensation but this was in the form of sending me their sales brochure…!

I was thinking of sending it back but the thought occurred to me that this sort of shoddy quality is what we customers are now obliged to put up with even if I exchanged it for another would it be any better…? I doubt it…

So I bit the bullet and started to think about how I could sort it out myself, I wish I had heard about the article: Re-engineering a low cost Chinese drill press, by Brian Smith as mentioned in an earlier post by OurBallie, it would probably have made it an easier job, but what wrangles me is that a book has to be written in order to put something in order in the first place…. it may be 'cheap Chinese' but in my opinion if it isn't fit for purpose then it shouldn't be for sale..!

Anyway rant over…! I decided to make eccentric bushes to take the pinion axle and therefore the pinion nearer to the rack, it wasn't an easy job, the thing had to be dismantled and two jigs made in order to bore out the pinion axle holes, then the two eccentrics made and some means of fixing them in place when positioned correctly…. the result…fantastic…!

Why is it that for the sake of a simple small change in the design which might incur some slight cost to the product, a profound increase in quality could be gained…..oh ***t ranting again…

better go…. Bob.

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

To the man who bought a new drill by a well known maker and from a well known Mart and then found that it was CRAP, I would remind him of the words of The Bard himself,when he said "What,s in a name ?"

Never was a truer word spoken ! Even where names are not sold on,in order to pass off shoddy goods,the goods themselves are often shoddy. That amount of play is ridiculous,but it seems to all too common now,no matter where you buy from

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by larry Phelan on 14/07/2017 16:46:08:

…

Even where names are not sold on,in order to pass off shoddy goods,the goods themselves are often shoddy. That amount of play is ridiculous,but it seems to all too common now,no matter where you buy from

I know what you mean, but we do seem to be criticising the cheap end of the market where price is everything. Once or twice I've tried to find out how much an industrial tool might cost, but the sellers are remarkably coy, even second-hand. Possibly a case of 'if you have to ask, you can't afford it'.

I recently came across BEMA as the maker of a screw conveyor for removing swarf and other seriously grown up tools. They also do pillar drills like this one: anyone know how much they might cost?

Dave

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

Hi Dave,

I think you are right again,it,s a case if you have to ask the price,you are in the wrong shop. These machines are nice but how much ? I hate to think !. Still,with a little effort the cheap ones could be made a lot better,there is no excuse for bad workmanship.As has been shown,how much does it take to make them right,and how much easier that would be during manufacture..

Love reading your posts,always learn something from them,keep them coming.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

> BEMA

Well a quality bench drill can cost more than most of us are willing to pay for a lathe…

I note that it has 'milling capability'.

 

Having gone from one of the cheapies that I was always going to improve (one day, but not in 17 years) I now have a much bigger and more solid Clarke CDP202B.

Better in every way (except it's a bit TOO big when reaching up and in to change the belts) it costs three times as much. There are a few 'intermediate' machines as well.

So I suppose the answer to why not spend a little more to make it better is that there are already a lot of machines out there with fairly closely spaced price points and showing incremental improvements in design and build.

If I had know I would have kept the drill for 17 years, would I have spent more than £39 (1999)? YES – it would have been worth it or NO – if I managed for so long what's there to complain about?

Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 15/07/2017 08:54:23

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

It is a nice machine Neil,but as you say,pricey. Could be a bit of an overkill for a home workshop.

I suppose we,ll just have to make the best of what we have,or can get,for the money.

Still,it should not be too hard to avoid some of the worse errors during production.

Live in hope?

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by larry Phelan on 14/07/2017 20:15:08:

…

Still,with a little effort the cheap ones could be made a lot better,there is no excuse for bad workmanship.As has been shown,how much does it take to make them right,and how much easier that would be during manufacture..

Love reading your posts,always learn something from them,keep them coming.

Glad you like my posts Larry – they're not to everyone's taste! Gives me the chance to mention that I quietly added one of your suggestions to my 'to-do' list recently. I own a scattered collection of metric & imperial twist drills loose and in boxes categorised depending on wear for, 'brass', 'steel', 'wood' and 'don't know'. It's a pain to move them from box to box as they wear, and I keep mislaying the boxes, and I keep forgetting what I last used a drill for. So I'm going to try replacing the muddle with a giant Phelan Patent wooden drill stand to hold the whole lot in plain view. Thanks for the idea!

Small quality failures are very annoying. For example my computer mouse is well-made and works perfectly except it has wobbly battery connections. So do lots of others as do some TV Remotes etc. Why? It's a mystery.

With cheap power tools I think the reason behind shoddy kit is that the components are knocked out quickly, assembled in a rush, and then despatched after minimal quality checks, also done at high speed. When things are made like that, most will be 'OK' (i.e acceptable to good), a few will be outstanding, and some will be truly, truly awful.

Whenever I buy anything I check it over before using it so it can be returned if necessary. So far I've only found minor issues, or at least minor to me. My pillar drill could be improved as per this thread, but I haven't bothered because it does the rough work I bought it for. But I'm NOT working it hard against the clock, or risking damage to expensive materials, or expecting precision. I quite understand why someone with more demanding requirements would find the same drill unacceptable!

Dave

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 15/07/2017 08:45:10:

> BEMA

….

I note that it has 'milling capability'.

…

Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 15/07/2017 08:54:23

That's the only time I've seen that claim made for a pillar drill. It must be a rigid beast. Even so, the blurb says it fulfils "a requirement between light weight low capacity machines and costly geared head machines".

Now I know that expensive pillar drill is inferior I want one of them costly geared head machines. What a shame chasing quality is so expensive!

Dave

Dave

[Patrick William HaywardParticipant @patrickwilliamhayward19891]

Hello, my improved modification for a cheap Chinese drill NUTool. A bench model I’ve made a table for it with a sloping base. Utilised and old header tank, and lowered a £3.50 tiny pump into a solution of cutting fluid. What doesn’t run along my piece runs back to the tank below the table.
Now I can drill 12mm holes all day long through10mm steel, all with the same drill bit. For drilling metal it has totally transformed a cheap as chips Pillardrill.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 15/07/2017 08:45:10:

 

So I suppose the answer to why not spend a little more to make it better is that there are already a lot of machines out there with fairly closely spaced price points and showing incremental improvements in design and build.

If I had know I would have kept the drill for 17 years, would I have spent more than £39 (1999)? YES – it would have been worth it or NO – if I managed for so long what's there to complain about?

Neil

Its not a matter of spending a little more for better engineering or incremental improvements at fairly close price points. Incremental improvements being fairly irrelevant when you can't do side by side comparison. We can only spec compare and rely on seller descriptions. And what broad line pro-sumer catalogue supplier can afford to do proper testing and QC on what they supply.

Its a matter of making what you make properly. In this day and age there is no extra cost to siting the downfeed pinion bores correctly in relation to the quill and making both column and table adequately strong. Assuming a honestly and properly equipped factory.

My first pillar drill was something like the bench top Superior **LINK**

http://www.lathes.co.uk/superior-drills/

It had lost all the drive pulleys sometime in its long life before being dragged out of a next door to scrap tool emporium in 1976 for perhaps £5. The simple plain bores for quill and drive pinion were accurately placed when new, and despite wear making the drive shaft somewhat slack in its bore the mating between the rack cut on the quill was still decent with little play. The cast iron thrust surface under the two step pulely had well over 1/16" wear so it had seen lots of use. But the simple plain bore holding the pulley spigot was still good. Maybe being perhaps 3" deep by 2" bore helped. The cup and cone loose ball thrust races were coming to the end of their lives and the chuck was well past it but fitting taper roller bearings top an bottom of the quill stiffened everything up nicely. With a motor strapped on the back it gave excellent service for many years. Still going well in a friends and still has less play than any import I've seen. Frankly I only sold it because two speeds wasn't really enough and a Pollard arrived at the right price.

That drill was clearly a cheap, unbranded near the bottom of the range machine made by knife-n-fork methods in a lightly equipped factory. But it was accurate where it needed to be.

The whole point of modern production methods is to put the accuracy in the jigs and tooling so that things acn be made rapidly and cheaply. If you have the market its always cheaper to set up to do things properly "right first time" than muck around with slack fits so things can be forced together sort of. A factory not setting up so the quill and pinion bore alignment and the other simple things are correct is basically just coming the raw prawn.

Importers selling such things are, frankly, just conning their customers. Most of us have little real understanding of factory and mass production economics. If the importers insisted China Inc would darn soon up their game. Probably cheaper too!

I suspect most folk would be horrified to find out where their higher end engineering quality(?) drill presses are sold in the Chinese home market. Very back street, mon'n pop, open front workshops I think. Not proper factories.

Clive

Edited By Clive Foster on 08/07/2022 09:12:17

Edited By Clive Foster on 08/07/2022 09:12:54

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Here is what you pay for a standard industrial quality drill press these days. LINK — about 2,300 Quid. Yes you read that right, 2,300 Quid for a half-inch, bench mounted standard industrial quality drill press. Nothing fancy.

So when your 100 Quid hobby drill is less than perfect, start saving the extra 2,200 Quid for a proper one.

[Henry BrownParticipant @henrybrown95529]

Posted by Steven Vine on 11/07/2017 14:38:17:

Posted by Simon Collier 1 on 11/07/2017 12:59:59:

I found the article: Re-engineering a low cost Chinese drill press, by Brian Smith, AME July 2001.

I would be interested in reading that article. What is AME?

Steve

Australian Model Engineering – AME

Bit of a long shot, does anyone have the above mentioned article please? My old nu-Tool has done me well and deserves a bit of TLC!

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

Just curious has anyone trammed with a dial indicator how square the table is to the spindle on these cheapo machines,? though these drills should be much better what can one expect when only paying £39 23 years ago! I just wonder do the orientals make a batch of drill parts,then apply selective assembly to the drills to obtain say 80% reasonably accurate, then assemble the remaining parts quickly and sell them off cheap,its more profitable to sell cheap rubbish assembled drills rather than scrap the defective parts.

[martin haysomParticipant @martinhaysom48469]

Posted by Hopper on 08/07/2022 10:04:02:

Here is what you pay for a standard industrial quality drill press these days. LINK — about 2,300 Quid. Yes you read that right, 2,300 Quid for a half-inch, bench mounted standard industrial quality drill press. Nothing fancy.

So when your 100 Quid hobby drill is less than perfect, start saving the extra 2,200 Quid for a proper one

for what Hooper said making things well is very spendy i too have the same drill as the OP. it does well for what it is, i put a support under the table when drilling. its good enough for what i do if/when its not , its time to spend lots

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Nigel McBurney 1 on 08/07/2022 11:23:20:

Just curious has anyone trammed with a dial indicator how square the table is to the spindle on these cheapo machines,?

Yes, my Chinese-made Craftmaster is a large, heavy bench mounted drill press that has a 16mm chuck and is very heavily made but a "low cost" brand. Does not flex noticeably under normal home shop drilling forces, as you would expect for a lump that large. But when I trammed the table with a clock, it was 40 thou out of square across the 14" or so diameter table. Bit of shim in the joint where the table can pivot side-to-side, which feature I never use, and it is all good now. But clearly was never checked at the factory and obviously was machined crooked by a small amount, magnified by the distance from column to outer edge of table.

That and new bearings all through it and it is a decent machine now. Plus I put an extra bronze bush in the top pulley to stop the quill rattling around in the loose splines there and making a noise that annoyed me.

But still, if I am doing anything special and want to be sure my holes are dead nuts square etc, I do it in the lathe using the vertical slide. EG con rod in a model engine etc.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Hopper on 08/07/2022 12:08:29:

Posted by Nigel McBurney 1 on 08/07/2022 11:23:20:

Just curious has anyone trammed with a dial indicator how square the table is to the spindle on these cheapo machines,?

Yes, my Chinese-made Craftmaster is a large, heavy bench mounted drill press that has a 16mm chuck and is very heavily made but a "low cost" brand. Does not flex noticeably under normal home shop drilling forces, as you would expect for a lump that large. But when I trammed the table with a clock, it was 40 thou out of square across the 14" or so diameter table…

But still, if I am doing anything special and want to be sure my holes are dead nuts square etc, I do it in the lathe using the vertical slide. EG con rod in a model engine etc.

Comment first. The tram of a pillar drill isn't as critical as the tram of a mill. The uncorrected error in Hopper's Craftsmaster means a hole 30mm deep will be off centre by 0.08mm at the bottom. For most ordinary purposes the error wouldn't matter, and it's less than the wander caused by a poorly ground drill tip.

By 'ordinary purposes', I mean the sort of drilling I mostly do, which is holes to take nuts and bolts. They're usually less than 5 or 6 diameters deep and deliberately oversized to avoid alignment problems. I don't drill several matching 10mm holes in two objects and expect them to line up so perfectly that 10mm bolts will fit through them all without bother!

This website suggests these 'tight tolerances' for various location methods used in manufacturing. By 'tight' they mean more care is taken than normal. Unless something extra special is done, 'tight tolerances' mean manufacturers should assume holes will be placed no better than:

Centre Punch and Drill – 0.5mm
Bushed Drill Fixture – 0.2mm
Precision Mill/CNC – 0.2mm
Precision Mill/CNC with optical or other precision location – 0.076mm
Jig Boring with optical or other precision location – 0.013mm

Although home workshops can and do achieve better, it suggests our expectations may be too high! Possibly too much is expected of pillar drills in general, and far too much of the cheaper ones. They're a quick way of drilling holes with moderate accuracy, not tool-room jig borers! And not worth spending big money on unless lots of tightly toleranced holes are needed. In my workshop the pillar drill is used for relatively low accuracy work, and I switch to the mill or lathe when better is needed.

My pillar drill is a cheap bench type badged 'Clarke'. No measurable up-down movement in the chuck but the run-out is 0.45mm 100mm below the chuck. In practice this doesn't matter unless the drill is poorly aligned with a centre pop: when the drill is spinning it balances along the spindle axis, and stays straight on that unless mechanically forced off course. The machine is inaccurate when the job is firmly clamped, but works well when the job is floated gently into alignment with the spinning drill tip. The technique is totally different from milling where rigidity is vital, and floating makes it possible to get reasonable results out of indifferently made hobby drills and badly worn pro-kit.

On a 160mm diameter the table is tilted high on the right, and is slightly high at the back. From 6O'clock: 0.00mm, -0.15, -0.30, -0.30, 0.05, 0.20, 0.35, 0.28 : much worse than Hopper's!

The right-left tilt is adjustable, but I haven't bothered to level it because it's not awful compared with a set-square with a bright torch light behind. I can see the gap is a bit wider at the bottom and could be improved, but it's not enough to worry me unless I were to start drilling really deep holes:

Two ways of looking at this small inexpensive pillar drill:

• Grossly inferior compared with an expensive industrial drill costing ten times as much
• Despite warts, a worthwhile tool that been doing a fully acceptable job in my workshop for nearly 10 years.

Best drill ever made? No!!! China-bashers will plenty to criticise, but only if they ignore the price. Value for money and Fit for Purpose in my workshop? Yes. If I'd paid for a better drill than this one, I'd have wasted my money.

However, what other folk do in their workshops and what makes them happy makes all the difference. I choose not to chase accuracy or other qualities in tools unless I need them to do a job. Although I don't need a better pillar drill, I'm sure plenty of others do.

Dave

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

If the drilling machine has a hollow spindle for using a drawbar to hold milling tools, it could be used for small scale milling, otherwise not, it would be dangerous.

[Clive Brown 1Participant @clivebrown1]

Here's a drill that could do with improvement.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 08/07/2022 14:41:22:

Posted by Hopper on 08/07/2022 12:08:29:

Posted by Nigel McBurney 1 on 08/07/2022 11:23:20:

Just curious has anyone trammed with a dial indicator how square the table is to the spindle on these cheapo machines,?

Yes, my Chinese-made Craftmaster is a large, heavy bench mounted drill press that has a 16mm chuck and is very heavily made but a "low cost" brand. Does not flex noticeably under normal home shop drilling forces, as you would expect for a lump that large. But when I trammed the table with a clock, it was 40 thou out of square across the 14" or so diameter table…

But still, if I am doing anything special and want to be sure my holes are dead nuts square etc, I do it in the lathe using the vertical slide. EG con rod in a model engine etc.

Comment first. The tram of a pillar drill isn't as critical as the tram of a mill. The uncorrected error in Hopper's Craftsmaster means a hole 30mm deep will be off centre by 0.08mm at the bottom. For most ordinary purposes the error wouldn't matter, and it's less than the wander caused by a poorly ground drill tip.

But if you drill and ream a dowel hole in one end of a 14" length of flat bar, when you mount that bar to another piece of metal with a dowel pin, the far end of the flat bar will be out of alignment by the 40 thou error on the drill press table. The error in the hole itself is small, but not so when multiplied by the length of the job.fth

Even on something as small as the crankshaft of the Potty mill engine, that small amount of error was enough when drilling and reaming the holes in the flanks to make the result useless, requiring the mainshafts to be skimmed in the lathe after assembly to make them run true. That's how I discovered my drill press table was out of whack.

 

 

 

 

Edited By Hopper on 11/07/2022 00:58:02

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