CAM software for CNC Lathes – With C axis and constrained live tool

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Joe.

Get Ecam here

Ecam is free at the weekend. You can get your job set up and tweaked on the week days and generate code at the weekend. Never the less, I've bought a full licence because I like the software and I've had a good response from the author when I've found bugs etc.

Same goes for PlanetCNC. Have you downloaded it yet? It has an unlimited simulation mode that does everything except drive a CNC machine. I test my code with it first before going into the workshop.

Get it here and run it on any platform including RaspberryPi.

Martin.

[Joseph Noci 1Participant @josephnoci1]

Thanks Martin – I will get Ecam and learn – At least those lessons are more main-stream than LinuxCnC!

I do have the PlanetCNC's TNG software – Early this year I looked quite deeply into the PlanetCNC stuff as I was looking for a MACH3 alternative to drive my 4 axis hot wire foam cutter, and had good discourse on the Planetcnc forum. The software was able to do it all just fine, and I was ready to procure the controller and TNG software, and the virus arrived, shipping stopped, etc – I did not revive that route as my lathe project woke up in all the lockdowns, and so the research regarding able controllers started. If the Planetcnc board can do my C axis lathe, then it is really a no-brainer – I will persevere with LinuxCNC, but right now , only because It is a challenge, but to what end I am not sure. As I said before, the Centroid ACORN and the PlanetCNC boards and associated softwares are just so polished – the software user interface, the look of the machine screen, layout, etc is very professional, and looks 'machine tool' like – MACH3 is so poor in that regard, and LinuxCNC is not a huge improvement – I know both can be changed – you can create your own screens, setups, etc, but again, that's not the objective for a machine user is it?

As it is, there are big learning curves involved as soon as you start in the CNC realm – finding and learning an (affordable?) CAD package, ditto the CAM software, setting up the machine, etc – And then the Controller software it self – TNG, the Centroid offering, LinuxCNC, etc, also has to be 'learnt' so spending time learning the inner guts to just add handwheels, etc, is not useful at all!

Martin, your video is very good – you have done a few videos I see, and you do them well! A natural! – My very few videos are silent movies – with some titles if I think it needed – but I would have to read from a script to voice it! – too many umms and aahhs.

Thanks Again for your help.

Joe

[Joseph Noci 1Participant @josephnoci1]

Just a bump to a moderator please – If you would be so kind as to delete the now space wasting G_Code posts – 

No-one else will have much interest in them and they will annoy fellow readers I think..

Joe

Edited By Joseph Noci 1 on 04/01/2021 07:43:58

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

I own a Tormach so I enjoy the pleasures and luxury of using PathPilot. It is a clean easy to use interface and the various tabs for conversational routines, probing and tool table etc are very professional.

I visited IMTS a few years ago and had been tasked by a friend to look out for CNC control software. As a result of my searching on his behalf I spent a very enjoyable few hours on the Acorn stand/booth. A really nice bunch of guys and what looked like an impressive product. I was so impressed I asked if they could sell a board and licence off the stand at the show to take home to the UK for my colleague to use. They said sadly no but if I came back the following day they would see what they could do. Next day I duly turned up and received a controller board that had been hand carried overnight by one of their factory team. Speaks volumes about their attitude to customer support.

Finally for those frustrated by the Mach3 visual presentation, have a look at Physics Anonymous YouTube videos SO3E13 and 14. This is as close to a professional layout for Mach3 that I have seen. It is not totally bug free but an update is promised. I have a small CNCEST mill that now uses this interface and I tend to forget I am using Mach3.

Alan

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

Joseph I wouldn’t worry about the space taken up by the CNC programme, far more space is wasted on this forum by pointless discussions on what lathe is best, what lathe do I need, comparing Myford to Chinese etc etc.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Joseph Noci 1 on 04/01/2021 07:42:06:

Just a bump to a moderator please – If you would be so kind as to delete the now space wasting G_Code posts –

No-one else will have much interest in them and they will annoy fellow readers I think..

Joe

Edited By Joseph Noci 1 on 04/01/2021 07:43:58

Doesn't annoy me, but if Martin drops me a PM confirming it, I'll delete the G-code. Your question but Martin owns the answer, and his post is within the rules. Harmless, and I expect a few people may have been interested in what G-code looks like. No obligation to understand it, or look at it at all.

Dave

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 04/01/2021 11:22:00:

Posted by Joseph Noci 1 on 04/01/2021 07:42:06:

Just a bump to a moderator please – If you would be so kind as to delete the now space wasting G_Code posts –

No-one else will have much interest in them and they will annoy fellow readers I think..

Joe

Edited By Joseph Noci 1 on 04/01/2021 07:43:58

Doesn't annoy me, but if Martin drops me a PM confirming it, I'll delete the G-code. Your question but Martin owns the answer, and his post is within the rules. Harmless, and I expect a few people may have been interested in what G-code looks like. No obligation to understand it, or look at it at all.

Dave

Dave.

I don't mind one way or the other. I'll leave the decision in your capable hands.

Martin.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I've followed this CNC thread with a good deal of interest but (I'm afraid) no practical experience. So I can't add anything to the practical or technical advice being offered I'm afraid – although fortunately others here can do so.

Clearly, the posters are also working at the leading-edge of CNC (at least for hobbyist use) but I think it's confirmed my view that even 'basic' CNC is currently well beyond my capabilities (not to mention purse) and possibly (in truth) my practical needs.

Admittedly, I used to have the same view about 3D Printing but I have found it relatively easy to design and print simple 3D parts that would be a problem (or time consuming) using other modelling methods. So 3DP is part of my workshop capability now – being a useful addition without dominating it.

CNC would of course open up some very interesting opportunities for my modelling but until there is an affordable CNC 'package' that makes this as approachable as 3D Print – I think it's going to be a bit beyond my reach. There are probably also simpler (and cheaper) ways for me to enhance my machining. The most obvious one would be the greater use of DROs on my existing (e.g. old) machinery – or at least in my case – some modest equivalents.

My CNC needs would generally be for smaller (multiple) detail parts, which can be time consuming to make and expensive to buy-in. Many of these I could 3DP now of course but I currently still "prefer" (it's hard to define exactly) to make them in metal – so perhaps a game-changer for me might be new 3DP materials and technologies. These technologies do seem to evolve at a bewildering rate these days, so who knows what we will have available to us in a few years time.

Regards,

IanT

Edited By IanT on 04/01/2021 12:33:33

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by blowlamp on 04/01/2021 11:28:55:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 04/01/2021 11:22:00:

Posted by Joseph Noci 1 on 04/01/2021 07:42:06:

Just a bump to a moderator please – If you would be so kind as to delete the now space wasting G_Code posts –

No-one else will have much interest in them and they will annoy fellow readers I think..

Joe

Edited By Joseph Noci 1 on 04/01/2021 07:43:58

Doesn't annoy me, but if Martin drops me a PM confirming it, I'll delete the G-code. Your question but Martin owns the answer, and his post is within the rules. Harmless, and I expect a few people may have been interested in what G-code looks like. No obligation to understand it, or look at it at all.

Dave

Dave.

I don't mind one way or the other. I'll leave the decision in your capable hands.

Martin.

It's going, going, gone!

Ta,

Dave

[Joseph Noci 1Participant @josephnoci1]

IanT,

Well, I am not sure about where on the cutting edge I may or may not be! I believe you can get into useful 3D CNC work quite inexpensively, esp if it is 'small' modelling – the are many Eastern desktop routers that with a bit of engineering sense can be made quite serviceable – they can be made to 'mill' aluminium thin sheet, slowly, and other modelling materials very easily. I know I deride MACH3, but it is available cheaply, old PC's with a printer port are available for next to nothing, and MACH3 for such applications is a doddle. The other bits are needed of course – some sort of CAD and CAM, but the Workshop version of Alibre is excellent and will do most if not all you could want.

MACH3 learning curve is easy ( compared to linuxcnc, you could do it in your sleep..) – Alibre is not to bad – and there are many here who can help you with that! Don't let it scare you – amazing what such a tool enable you to do and opens up many new adventures, as you discovered with 3DP…

Joe

[Joseph Noci 1Participant @josephnoci1]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 04/01/2021 13:06:50:

Doesn't annoy me, but if Martin drops me a PM confirming it, I'll delete the G-code. Your question but Martin owns the answer, and his post is within the rules. Harmless, and I expect a few people may have been interested in what G-code looks like. No obligation to understand it, or look at it at all.

Dave

I don't mind one way or the other. I'll leave the decision in your capable hands.

Martin.

It's going, going, gone!

Ta,

Dave

Thanks Dave – It was at my request that Martin kindly obliged – I did not stop to think what a clutter that might be!

Joe

[Joseph Noci 1Participant @josephnoci1]

Posted by Alan Wood 4 on 04/01/2021 09:58:44:

I own a Tormach so I enjoy the pleasures and luxury of using PathPilot. It is a clean easy to use interface and the various tabs for conversational routines, probing and tool table etc are very professional.

I visited IMTS a few years ago and had been tasked by a friend to look out for CNC control software. As a result of my searching on his behalf I spent a very enjoyable few hours on the Acorn stand/booth. A really nice bunch of guys and what looked like an impressive product. I was so impressed I asked if they could sell a board and licence off the stand at the show to take home to the UK for my colleague to use. They said sadly no but if I came back the following day they would see what they could do. Next day I duly turned up and received a controller board that had been hand carried overnight by one of their factory team. Speaks volumes about their attitude to customer support.

Finally for those frustrated by the Mach3 visual presentation, have a look at Physics Anonymous YouTube videos SO3E13 and 14. This is as close to a professional layout for Mach3 that I have seen. It is not totally bug free but an update is promised. I have a small CNCEST mill that now uses this interface and I tend to forget I am using Mach3.

Alan

Just an example how life can chase you around the block!

I JUST got LinuxCNC working, with 3 (XYZ) MPG's on each axis, etc, on my Router. I had MACH3 on that router for 13 years…Put another hard drive into its PC, made it the boot drive, loaded LinuxCNC and spent 4DAYS(!!) really mucking about trying to configure the HAL files to setup LinuxCNC to use the Router as configured. Eventually got it working nicely – -with 2 parallel ports! Just plug the 2 cables from the Router ( as they were) into the original ports on the 'MACH3' PC, boot Linuxcnc and the router works as it used to….Nice…

But there are some disturbing issues with LCNC. A major issue for me is the inability to halt a machining cycle, and continue from where left off – not a pause, but halt – For example, you break a tool, and stop the machine, jog the z axis up to safety, change to a new preset tool, and want to carry on – cannot in LCNC! In MACH3 I can STOP, jog any axiz, change a tool, and then select a G-code line I want to start from – say 3 or 4 prior to the tool-break, and select 'Run from Here' – To preserve modality, MACH3 starts at the file beginning, runs through fast , sets up, and at the select line carries on the job…

I know you are not suppose to break tools, but I do a lot of PCB engraving – the carbide cutter is a 10deg cutter with a really fine tip and it easily nicks, causing bad burrs during engraving..

I'm afraid, unless there is a fix for this in Linuxcnc, that's it for me!

And then you come along with that really nice MACH screen set – that is very good indeed!

The LinuxCNC screen is also so passé…

Not sure I will go back to MACH, but I believe the Centroid ACORN and PlanetCNC boards and software are now definitely a better option!

The CNC Lathe C Axis still haunts, though..

How does PathPilot handle tool breakage on the Tormach?

Joe

[mike TParticipant @miket56243]

Joe,

Have you tried to configure a machine as a 4 axis mill. with X,Y,Z,C axes with the LinuxCNC, Step Config Wizard 

I have a small EMCO compact 5 lathe bed, with a stepper motor driven spindle, bolted to the bed of my 3 axis Mill.

The lathe gives me a fourth axis of motion. with all the work holding advantages of three jaw, four jaw, collet chucks, faceplate and a movable tailstock. With it, I can do all the normal 4 axis functions. index, machine on the round etc.etc.

Is this in any way similar to what you refer to as a "CNC Lathe with C axis and constrained live tooling"?

Mike

Edited By mike T on 04/01/2021 15:42:17

Edited By mike T on 04/01/2021 15:54:37

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

Hi Joe

PathPilot supports in program G37 tool length move and measure in the format G37 H~ P~

H saves the current tool length to the H tool library instead of the current tool number.

P is a positive or negative tolerance whereby the measurements in H and the current tool number can be compared and if greater than the defined limit will stop the program.

This was added in 2019 and works very well. It has an inbuilt discipline that needs you to zero the spindle nose at start up which I think sets a G53 reference.

Alan

[Joseph Noci 1Participant @josephnoci1]

Mike, No , – I have not implemented what I think you are suggesting – but it is quite easy

I understand you wish to use the 'lathe' merely as a stepper driven rotary axis extension on the mill.

If that is so , MACH handles that no problem, You have to , in your case, set the A axis to be a rotary, setup pin I/O in the Config>Motor pins setup, Make sure SLAVE axes is not set, and Setup in TOOLPATHs the direction the rotary axis lies on the machine – Sound complicated but actually not.

If you need more detail, shout, but it is shown reasonably well in the Mach Mill manual.

IF, however, you wish to use the mill Z axis as a Y axis for the lathe working as a lathe, and then lathe spindle as a C axis, well that just brought a second order complication to my already complicated wish-list!

Joe

[Joseph Noci 1Participant @josephnoci1]

Posted by Alan Wood 4 on 04/01/2021 17:47:14:

Hi Joe

PathPilot supports in program G37 tool length move and measure in the format G37 H~ P~

H saves the current tool length to the H tool library instead of the current tool number.

P is a positive or negative tolerance whereby the measurements in H and the current tool number can be compared and if greater than the defined limit will stop the program.

This was added in 2019 and works very well. It has an inbuilt discipline that needs you to zero the spindle nose at start up which I think sets a G53 reference.

Alan

Ok Alan, but that does not really answer the question…How do you continue a job when you break a tool in the middle of the job?

Joe

[mike TParticipant @miket56243]

Posted by Joseph Noci 1 on 04/01/2021 17:58:23:

Mike, No , – I have not implemented what I think you are suggesting – but it is quite easy

Joe

I setup my 4 axes machine using LiuxCNC and have been using it for well over a year ago.

I was trying to offer help to you, if you were attempting to do a similar thing.

Mike

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

Hi Joe

Sorry about that, I thought you were asking how PP warned you and auto stopped.

From my point of view you have to allow a pause to let the expletives diminish and then decide on the easiest route. Long winded is to stop and reload an edited GCode up to a convenient point before the breakage and this will probably involve cutting air. I use GCodeEditor to see where things are at.

If it has been a controlled stop rather than a panic button or ESC then swapping out a tool is possible as I use the Tormach collet system.

If I aim the answer more to your PCB milling then I do this on the small CNC (using Mach3 though) and I use tooling from Think & Tinker. These come supplied with a plastic depth stop ring on the shank so you can swap out tools without having to do a tool height setting. I have extended this idea by 3D printing my own collars and fitting these to my non T&T tooling such as board routers and tooling hole drills. I have a height setting jig that I set these collars against and superglue them in place. Pause the code, stop the spindle, swap the tool and carry on.

That still might not have answered your question …

Alan

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Joseph Noci 1 on 04/01/2021 05:45:39:

Thanks Martin – I will get Ecam and learn – At least those lessons are more main-stream than LinuxCnC!

I do have the PlanetCNC's TNG software – Early this year I looked quite deeply into the PlanetCNC stuff as I was looking for a MACH3 alternative to drive my 4 axis hot wire foam cutter, and had good discourse on the Planetcnc forum. The software was able to do it all just fine, and I was ready to procure the controller and TNG software, and the virus arrived, shipping stopped, etc – I did not revive that route as my lathe project woke up in all the lockdowns, and so the research regarding able controllers started. If the Planetcnc board can do my C axis lathe, then it is really a no-brainer – I will persevere with LinuxCNC, but right now , only because It is a challenge, but to what end I am not sure. As I said before, the Centroid ACORN and the PlanetCNC boards and associated softwares are just so polished – the software user interface, the look of the machine screen, layout, etc is very professional, and looks 'machine tool' like – MACH3 is so poor in that regard, and LinuxCNC is not a huge improvement – I know both can be changed – you can create your own screens, setups, etc, but again, that's not the objective for a machine user is it?

As it is, there are big learning curves involved as soon as you start in the CNC realm – finding and learning an (affordable?) CAD package, ditto the CAM software, setting up the machine, etc – And then the Controller software it self – TNG, the Centroid offering, LinuxCNC, etc, also has to be 'learnt' so spending time learning the inner guts to just add handwheels, etc, is not useful at all!

Martin, your video is very good – you have done a few videos I see, and you do them well! A natural! – My very few videos are silent movies – with some titles if I think it needed – but I would have to read from a script to voice it! – too many umms and aahhs.

Thanks Again for your help.

Joe

Thanks, Joe. I'm very happy if it helps with your project.

Just ask, if you think I can assist.

Martin.

[Joseph Noci 1Participant @josephnoci1]

Posted by mike T on 04/01/2021 18:28:46:

Posted by Joseph Noci 1 on 04/01/2021 17:58:23:

Mike, No , – I have not implemented what I think you are suggesting – but it is quite easy

Joe

I setup my 4 axes machine using LiuxCNC and have been using it for well over a year ago.

I was trying to offer help to you, if you were attempting to do a similar thing.

Mike

Mike.

As usual, getting MY wires and pins crossed – Thinking you're asking me a question while you are offering assistance!

Sorry!

Thanks for the offer Mike. I am really not sure where I am going with this now. If I continue with LCNC, I need to get a better PC, get with the later LinuxCnC release, not use parallel ports but use MESA cards, etc – It has been a mission getting the simple router to work – I am still fighting 'joint following errors' – probably my PC is to slow, etc…

The implementation of the full-on C axis lathe is probably going to require decent hardware, and a lot more effort, getting into the deeper regions of pins and joints and things…Its just a massive diversion from the real thing ( making the lathe, and doing some model engineering!) and has the potential to be all consuming.

Not only that, but the constant feed of 'use any old PC lying about, a cheap CNC solution, etc, is somehow not quite true – the MESA cards are NOT inexpensive, hard to get , no stock, etc….

Guess I need to take stock and decide!

[Joseph Noci 1Participant @josephnoci1]

Posted by Alan Wood 4 on 04/01/2021 19:19:41:

Hi Joe

Sorry about that, I thought you were asking how PP warned you and auto stopped.

From my point of view you have to allow a pause to let the expletives diminish and then decide on the easiest route. Long winded is to stop and reload an edited GCode up to a convenient point before the breakage and this will probably involve cutting air. I use GCodeEditor to see where things are at.

If it has been a controlled stop rather than a panic button or ESC then swapping out a tool is possible as I use the Tormach collet system.

If I aim the answer more to your PCB milling then I do this on the small CNC (using Mach3 though) and I use tooling from Think & Tinker. These come supplied with a plastic depth stop ring on the shank so you can swap out tools without having to do a tool height setting. I have extended this idea by 3D printing my own collars and fitting these to my non T&T tooling such as board routers and tooling hole drills. I have a height setting jig that I set these collars against and superglue them in place. Pause the code, stop the spindle, swap the tool and carry on.

That still might not have answered your question …

Alan

To some extent, yes Alan.

PP is from my understanding a polished LinuxCNC version of sorts, with updated motion and path planners, etc?

I am very surprised that there is no mechanism for recovery from a broken tool type situation. It's not complex so I wonder why.

Your Mach3 setup – what you described was an 'intended' tool change, or a pause for whatever reason – the key being a pause – MACH will complete the Gcode and then pause, so a continue is clean. Mach ALSO allows jogging away from the current position and then continuing, after a pause ( and obviously after a normal tool change code)

What I am chasing is that you hit stop, or pause for that matter ( stop stops mid cut – Gcode not completed) a few Gcode lines to late, after the tool has broken. Jog away, change tool, fix any offsets if need be, and then restart the Gcode some lines earlier select a start place, and 'run from here' – Mach3 restarts the file from the beginning , machine does not move, and when the selected line is reached, all modality is back in place, and the machine starts moving again.

I have perused the LCNC forum extensively, and its not possible. I find that an unacceptable omission – but if its been that way and is stuck that way, is it me? Am I operation the machine in an incorrect manner??

Won't I be annoyed if after all this I stick with Mach3 ( or 4)??? – I like that new screen set!

Joe

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

Good morning Joe

What you are asking may be possible on PP but I haven't approached it that way. The STOP command for instance doesn't change the current modal state of the mill.

It might be worth you downloading the 1100MX manual which is available on the Tormach documentation section.

**LINK**

Alan

[Bob RodgersonParticipant @bobrodgerson97362]

Path Pilot disallow you to return to a point in a programme where, if a tool breaks or you have to make an emergency stop, allows you to return to that point and continue from there with the rest of the programme. I also allows you to change such things as lead in type or commencing without any lead in etc.

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

Could I add to that with Release Note SB0046 version 2.4.2 Feb 2020 which details how to right click and select a new start point with various options. I just learned something …

**LINK**

Sorry Bob we doubled on this

Alan

Edited By Alan Wood 4 on 05/01/2021 10:59:16

[Joseph Noci 1Participant @josephnoci1]

Posted by Alan Wood 4 on 04/01/2021 09:58:44:

Finally for those frustrated by the Mach3 visual presentation, have a look at Physics Anonymous YouTube videos SO3E13 and 14. This is as close to a professional layout for Mach3 that I have seen. It is not totally bug free but an update is promised. I have a small CNCEST mill that now uses this interface and I tend to forget I am using Mach3.

Alan

Alan, I have been using that screen a bit, and am a little frustrated by some missing functions on the main screen – not major, more irritating than anything.

I started modifying the screen and adding what I wanted ( not trivial – the screen 'editor' [a massive misnomer..] is archaic) but while digging around I found this screen set :

**LINK**

Was $20.00 and is excellent. I have been using it a fair bit and it ticks all my boxes! Clean, uncluttered and really great for those quick, simple mill/router/engraver jobs.

Joe

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