cable connectors

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I’m about to start wiring up my battery loco. The motors are 2 off 12v 120W, and I’m using a 4QD controller. The controller has 2 pairs of output spade connectors and I’ve bought the 2.5 sqmm cables with crimped on connectors. The wires coming out of the motors are 1.5 sqmm (as near as I can measure. Before I measured them I tried blue crimp connectors with a proper crimping tool, they just fell off when given the lightest pull. I also need a connection to the motor suppression capacitor, which can be any size I want, presumably quite small. I’m considering using WAGO clips, as they seem to be able to cope with the different wire sizes. Alternative is to use some ~1 sqmm for the capacitor and twist that together with the 1.5sqmm motor lead then stuff it into a blue crimp connector, but that sounds like a bodge. Anyone who knows what he is talking about care to comment, or come up with a better idea? I don’t like chocolate blocks as the screw is turning whilst clamping the wire and chewing it up.

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

I would use red insulated crimp terminals for 1.5mm. Always used blue insulated crimp terminals with 2.5mm cable. The terminals quote a range of cable sizes as being suitable, but I always used the terminal that gave the closest fit into the terminal barrel before crimping – red for 1.5mm usually..

Use bootlace ferrules or insulated crimp pins with screw clamp connectors. Better quality “chocolate block” connectors have a leaf under the screw to prevent chewing up by direct contact with the screw end, but using a bootlace ferrule or pin under a screw without a leaf doesn’t chew up the end excessively.

No experience of Wago terminals, so no opinion.

Nigel B.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

From the number of posts I’ve put in in the last 3 hours you can see that Thursday afternoons would otherwise be very boring for me

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Duncan,

If you used this type I’m not surprised, if you used a proper ratchet one then the wire should be a snug fit in the terminal to start with for the crimp to work as Nigel above.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The couple of sparks that I use on jobs use Wago connectors quite a lot and I do too. Seem to work equally well on stranded flex as well as solid twin & earth type conductors. The lever types get used the most rather than the push in use once only types.

Chock blocks these days are poor plastic, cheap screws or threads that strip or all three in the same block. Also being tool free wagos are ideal when in a precarious position hanging onto an expensive large light fitting means you don’t need two more hands to hold the choc block and screwdriver. They make boxes for them if you want or need an added level of insulation.

[Dave Halford]

On Dave Halford Said:

Duncan,

If you used this type I’m not surprised…

Agreed, and some examples are worse than others – too cheap!  And even the best need the operator to have a strong grip.   The ratchet type are much better.

The other cause of loose wires, blush, is that the pliers were used upside down.   Seemed obvious to me that the bumpy side of the pliers should be applied to the edges of the crimp, but I eventually noticed that this often folds the connector badly.  They fold better and crimp harder with the pliers the other way, so the rounded side supports the edges.  I’m pretty sure I was doing it wrong…

Dave

[Wink HackmanParticipant @winkhackman25989]

Use WAGO 221 series lever connectors, it’s a no-brainer.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I did use a ratchet tool. I haven’t yet seen how to connect 3 different size wires using crimps. The only way I can see is to use a piggy back spade set up, but that introduces an extra joint. The link I had in my original post was to series 222 because I’ve used them before, but 221 has higher current rating, so that’s the one for me, thanks

[VicParticipant @vic]

This is an interesting note in the description on Amazon.

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

As the previous posts have said, use a better crimping tool and not the cheap one shown.

Video of how to crimp a terminal:  https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-e&q=how+to+properly+crimp+a+wire#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:6e8f33fc,vid:WFvEeWHDt1E,st:188

[Vic]

On Vic Said:

This is an interesting note in the description on Amazon.

[…]

Says more about Amazon than it does about Wago !!

MichaelG.

.

Ref. https://www.wago.com/gb/products

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, a decent crimp tool makes a good job, and I have a couple of the types shown by Dave Halford & SOD above, with mixed results, but I bought the one shown below many years ago, and has always made a good sound job. It wasn’t the cheapest of tools, but wasting a lot of failed crimp connectors isn’t cheap either.

Regards Nick.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Wago, nearly all the time.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

The OPs initial post tells us all we need to know !  The crimp was faulty due to either A not having enough power to properly close the fitting or B it was the wrong fitting. Or both ! Even with cheap crimpers it is possible to close the fitting soundly if one has a good grip but cheap fittings will often give a poor connection. Upto 4sqmm a cheap hand type crinper will do, above that a ratchet type to 25sqmm, above that your into the realms of a hydraulic unit for welding leads, heavy duty at 120sqmm.

If your fitting is a bit too big just fold the wire double before crimping. DO NOT buy cheap fittings. Noel.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

On 6 September 2024 at 00:23 Vic Said:
This is an interesting note in the description on Amazon.

If you buy items with a description like that it must trigger something in the system because I purchased some LED lamps on there described as not suitable for domestic use, shortly afterwards the emails started arriving asking if I wanted to open a commercial account.

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

Those awful pressed steel “combi-tools” can – at a push – generate a satisfactory crimp if used properly.

“Properly” in this case refers to making sure that sufficient closing pressure is applied and, to be fair to the tool manufacturer, they do have an indicator of when the correct pressure is applied. That is the two yellow arrows near the grips, whcih indicate surfaces that should touch when the the tool is closed onto a termianl. And note also that the tool has to be used twice on the terminal – once where the copper ferrule is inside the insulation near the connection end (eyelet, pin, Faston etc.) to make the electrical connection and secondly at the cable insulation side to close the plastic ferrule onto the insulation to form a strain relief.

A ratcheting “full form” crimping tool does all the above in one operation – the tool won’t open untill it has been closed sufficiently to release the ratchet & the dies form the electrical connection and the insulation strain relief closure all at once.

I agree with Noel about using quality terminations – cheap items just push a parellel plastic sleeve over the copper termination, which leaves a step to get the stripped end of the cable into. Easy to miss strands if this isn’t done with care. Quality terminations have a moulded insulator that has a funnel shaped entrance, which leads the stripped end into the connection.

Insulated terminals often get a bad press, but the reported failures are usually down to using cheap tools, cheap terminals & poor practice. I fitted tens of thousands of these over many years (and have the RSI wrist damage to show for it ! ) and cannot recall ever having had a failure of a crimped joint. The ratcheting crimp tool I used – which was provided by my then employer – did cost the equivalent of a weeks wages in 1982 though.

Nigel B.

[mgnbuk]

On mgnbuk Said:

Those awful pressed steel “combi-tools” can – at a push – generate a satisfactory crimp if used properly.

“Properly” in this case refers to making sure that sufficient closing pressure is applied and, to be fair to the tool manufacturer, they do have an indicator of when the correct pressure is applied. That is the two yellow arrows near the grips, whcih indicate surfaces that should touch when the the tool is closed onto a termianl. And note also that the tool has to be used twice on the terminal – once where the copper ferrule is inside the insulation near the connection end (eyelet, pin, Faston etc.) to make the electrical connection and secondly at the cable insulation side to close the plastic ferrule onto the insulation to form a strain relief.

A ratcheting “full form” crimping tool does all the above in one operation – the tool won’t open untill it has been closed sufficiently to release the ratchet & the dies form the electrical connection and the insulation strain relief closure all at once.

I agree with Noel about using quality terminations – cheap items just push a parellel plastic sleeve over the copper termination, which leaves a step to get the stripped end of the cable into. Easy to miss strands if this isn’t done with care. Quality terminations have a moulded insulator that has a funnel shaped entrance, which leads the stripped end into the connection.

Insulated terminals often get a bad press, but the reported failures are usually down to using cheap tools, cheap terminals & poor practice. I fitted tens of thousands of these over many years (and have the RSI wrist damage to show for it ! ) and cannot recall ever having had a failure of a crimped joint. The ratcheting crimp tool I used – which was provided by my then employer – did cost the equivalent of a weeks wages in 1982 though.

Nigel B.

I never really liked them but we all had them in the Garage years ago and so did the Car Radio and accessory fitters. I don’t remember any issues at the time.

[old foolParticipant @old-fool]

Round a steam rally some years ago I found some very cheep ring terminals. So I bort a pack! First one I used (red sleave, 1.5mm cable, rachet crimp that’s been in use for ever) the lug fell off under it’s own weight! The moral. If it looks too good to be true it aint!

Perhaps I’ll get something back when I weigh them in. The other answer is solder.

As an aside:- for joining cables I twist them together and slide a length of “glue lined heatshrink sleaving” when cured it’s permanent.

Bob

 

[Oven ManParticipant @ovenman]

Don’t even think about soldering them. They won’t last five minutes in any environment where they are subject to vibration.

Peter

[Oven Man]

On Oven Man Said:

Don’t even think about soldering them. They won’t last five minutes in any environment where they are subject to vibration.

Peter

why not

i always solder. never had a problem just need to do it right

[Ian HewsonParticipant @ianhewson99641]

One of the first things we were taught at technical college in the late 50s was a properly laced and soldered cable joint in 3/029 cable.

Would’t think a modern apprentice would know how to do it, or serve 6 years apprenticeship.

Ian

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

One interesting point with solder is that under a load it will FLOW ! Read up on MiR and their development of the time fuse ! For the book worms, Winston Churchills Toy Shop !

I had always thought that a soldered joint would be better, the more so in damp or corrosive air but after years of marine work and 1000s of joints crimped that never failed, I’m no longer sure it makes a difference. Yet in the 60s bullet connections were soldered as the looms were made up. Ah well. Noel.

[martin haysom]

On martin haysom Said:

On Oven Man Said:

Don’t even think about soldering them. They won’t last five minutes in any environment where they are subject to vibration.

Peter

why not

i always solder. never had a problem just need to do it right

Agreed. I have been soldering joints for over 60 years. BUT if they are not correctly supported all joints will fail eventually.

[Ian Hewson]

On Ian Hewson Said:

One of the first things we were taught at technical college in the late 50s was a properly laced and soldered cable joint in 3/029 cable.

Would’t think a modern apprentice would know how to do it, or serve 6 years apprenticeship.

Ian

Ian looks like we were going to Technical College around the same time and if I recall the joint was referred to a ‘marriage joint’

H

[Ian HewsonParticipant @ianhewson99641]

Hi Harry, I was in Leeds, different days then with the old boys, don’t feel like an old boy myself yet lol.

Ian

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