By the president of Grizzly

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I just found some remarkable handwork by the president of America's Grizzly Tools HERE

Now surely this is a challenge for the bosses of our UK suppliers to rise to?

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Good God Neil, don't lets give them any more thoughts on how to 'fiddle'

[Ed DuffnerParticipant @edduffner79357]

Not my cup of tea. A bit OT on the decoration, the electrics look kind of a cross between PRS and Danelectro but with more bling.

Ed.

[Nick GrantParticipant @nickgrant21535]

Not to my personal taste but the craftsmanship is amazing. Talented guy!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

My thoughts were much in line with Nicks…

Neil

[Nick GrantParticipant @nickgrant21535]

Nice that he actually spends time in a workshop too, not just behind a desk. Id imagine their tools are better for it.

[Jim NolanParticipant @jimnolan76764]

Like the southBend Hardinge clone in lathes, pity it won’t classify as hand baggage.

[the artfull-codgerParticipant @theartfull-codger]

Really unfair, the americans have all the tool suppliers, you can buy ANYTHING over there,the lucky devils, not knocking our own country's tools & suppliers & makers of course, I have a number of american tools all well made quality tools like our james neil or starrett & others. Of course I expect most stuff over there is made in china now like in our country.

[Ray LyonsParticipant @raylyons29267]

Have you seen their workshop manuals, free to download and far better than we get in the UK. I was lucky in getting the manual for my lathe before it was replaced by a newer model. If you are thinking of buying a Chinese machine in UK, you may wish to cross check with the Grizzly site to preview the manual. It seems to me that everything in USA is cheaper than in the UK, perhaps it is the scale of the sales

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

In the USA they have local sales tax of between 0 and 11% which compares to our 20% VAT, which must be part of the difference.

Neil

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Going on 2014 figures the US has a population 5 times greater than the UK so that makes a massive difference in quantity discounts from suppliers.

[Roger Provins 2Participant @rogerprovins2]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 13/12/2015 12:26:21:

In the USA they have local sales tax of between 0 and 11% which compares to our 20% VAT, which must be part of the difference.

Neil

Buying tools in the US maybe cheaper but having an accident or getting sick sure isn't!

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

They are not that cheap, you are actually only getting half the value as they are 110 volts

I'm certain that film Capricorn One is correct and they faked the moon landing because how could a country like the US get a man on the moon if they can't get 3 wires across America ?

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Haven`t any of you heard? UK is "Treasure Island", where businesses think they can rip us all off. In the words of the bean counters, "charge as much as the market will bear." Identical items priced in £ here, numerically same as in $ in USA, thus ignoring exchange rate.

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Posted by John Stevenson on 13/12/2015 14:57:20:

They are not that cheap, you are actually only getting half the value as they are 110 volts

I'm certain that film Capricorn One is correct and they faked the moon landing because how could a country like the US get a man on the moon if they can't get 3 wires across America ?

Hey John – I know your comment was tongue in cheek, but all (AFAIK) houses/businesses have 220v coming in, I think they call it "split phase". Appliances like electric heaters, air conditioners, stoves, clothes dryers are all 220v.

Long story short – across the two "black" wires is 220v, the "white" wire to either of the blacks is 110v. Ground is tied to the white wire at the circuit breaker box.

Most of my workshop is wired for 220v – two lathes, a mill, a belt linisher, a Worden T&C grinder, and lord knows what else.

[Robert Turner 1Participant @robertturner1]

>>Hey John – I know your comment was tongue in cheek, but all (AFAIK) houses/businesses have 220v coming in, I think they call it "split phase". Appliances like electric heaters, air conditioners, stoves, clothes dryers are all 220v

Yep, exactly right. I didn't throw any of my tools out when I emigrated to Canada. I just wired up the Garage for 220v. Businesses have either 220v split-phase, 120 / 208v three-phase or 600v three-phase supplies, depending on load. TBH, the voltage drop in the average 120v domestic wiring is pretty awful. Switching on the Hoover makes the lights flicker.

And if you think machine tools are expensive in the UK, try buying in Canada! There seems to be only about 1/10th of the range available here in the True North than in the US and what you can get is twice the price. Now the exchange rate with the pound is so terrible, I can't afford to buy from any of the cheap UK suppliers either.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

When I lived in Canada (until a year ago) I found that it was still cheaper to buy some stuff from the UK and ship it over, despite the import duty and taxes. That was true even for some Chinese tools you could buy on either side of the pond.

The US makes some pretty crummy stuff as well as the iconic brands, in some cases worse than the Chinese bulk imports. But in typical Mercan fashion, I suspect they are jacking up the import prices to support their domestic market, either coming in at the border or at the checkout, hence the earlier observation. There were also many products that were clearly substantially made in China but somehow qualified for the ubiquitous "Made in USA" sticker, I guess it would be somehow unpatriotic to question them.

Like John, I ran my equipment on the 220V split phase that every house has. The only question mark in my case was over the setup of my TIG welder which is actually a regulating switch mode converter operating at mains frequency (yes, it's massive). However, I didn't need to change any of the controls to get it working on 60Hz – it worked fine.

As for the fact that the "neutral" is live with this arrangement, the regulations ("code&quot in N America requires fuse / circuit breaker protection at the fuse box rather than in the plug, so both lines are protected at a level that is appropriate for the appliance cable. This differs from UK practice.

[Ray LyonsParticipant @raylyons29267]

I know we have VAT and other costs but if you look at Harbor Freight in USA, their prices for machine tools can be as much as 50% less than ours. I saw a YouTube video where a 6" woodwork lathe was demonstrated. It is the same as that sold by many importers in the Uk and costing about £350. This chap,with discounts bought his for about £100. I guess it is like petrol, we can't compare with USA

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Posted by John Stevenson on 13/12/2015 14:32:02:

Going on 2014 figures the US has a population 5 times greater than the UK so that makes a massive difference in quantity discounts from suppliers.

But the population of EU is 30% more so there should be the potential for a trans-European operation. Instead we have 3-4 significant importers in the space of just one USA state. Other EU countries have one or none so we are paying for the choice and convenience. Just imagine being in say, West Africa and wondering if there is a single supplier in any of the 20 nearest countries.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Some very unusual observations on here.

HF is a very ruthless but fascinating operation. Seriously large buying power. Look up boardroom battles where son overthrows father. Look up employee dis-satisfaction threads, and within China, the fathers escapades are legendary, where private jets get special access to restricted airports, with presidential VIP treatment motorcades back in the 80s. At exhibitions, buyers go to sellers stands. In HFs case, they had/have their own stands sponsored as in paid for, by the city organising the exhibition, where sellers have to have appointments and meetings with the HF buyers on HFs stand. Such is their buying power. There are many powers which HF have which others in the U.S. and anywhere in the world don't. On the one hand, one can thank them for the cheap imports, and on the other, one can insult them for a lot of the crap they sell. It depends entirely on your point of view regarding product, price, principals and expectations. a little bit like Walmart.

Rip off Britain: depends on your point of view. Americans are accepting of more issues then Brits, and Australians are even less accepting, but still insist on the lowest price via predominantly eBay cheap cheap cheap sales. If we are to put the same 'quality' of certain machines on the U.K. market, issues will arise relating to 'not fit for purpose', and not complying with CE regulations (and I say this with positive interest). To comply, additional components are added to U.K. and European machines depending on how legitimate and legal the importer wants to be, which cost money, for components, as well as compliance. There is additional cost based on understanding of CE, and compliance in the language of member states. EU member states except for the U.K., have protectionism policies in this respect, to protect the importers in their own state. It is not as free circulation as we think, or as we are, as a trading island.

Volume of consumption: U.S. volume buying power is huge. I say this based on facts and figures which I have access to. It is thanks to them that we see what we see in Europe today. Again, you can see this in a positive or negative manner – 'costing us jobs' as some would say. Whilst the population of the EU is 30% more than the U.S., in the U.S. they speak one language, with one wall plug, with one method of learning, understanding, mentality, and thinking, in that language, for the majority. Not the same in Europe.

When comparing prices, those stated on U.S. sites are all excluding any tax. Prices in the U.K. include tax. Combine that with the buying power of an average importer in the U.S. in terms of volume. Now look at the geographical size of the U.S. with the number of 'real importers', and you will find a handful of importers serving an english speaking market which is geographically five times larger than the U.K.. In comparison, in U.K. there are around six importers serving may be a fifth of the American market size. So, one U.S. importer = about five U.K. importers? this of coarse excludes HF. No comparisons can be drawn against them with political interests on all sides!.

Keeping this in mind, we now deal with regulatory requirements in the U.K., to include overheads, property costs, rent, rates, taxes, which are in many respects higher than the U.S., all things considered. CE compliance, WEEE compliance are additional costs which the U.S. importers are not subjected to. These are serious costs, which some of our importers also choose to ignore.

One key issue I accept is that U.K. machine importers manuals are crap. Considering the competition within the U.K., and it is tough, given the market size, what incentive does one have to invest in them, when Grizzlys manuals are so great?. For example, many on here have purchased machines from our competitors, and referred to Dismantling guides from ARC. So what it didn't cost ARC any money to prepare them or to get them published?..Not a sour grapes issues, just economic sense. As far as risk assessments are concerned, in ARCs case, we consider compliance costs to be a greater issue. We may be wrong, but there we go. I accept that there is always room for improvement, and the answer is not so simple.

Trans-European operation: Clarke – Machine Mart are the nearest people to have adopted this model, semi-successfully. They have great buying power, but the collective European overheads for small shops in comparison with giant American warehouse outlets are different. Even they would find it difficult to buy and sell the volumes which the Americans dictate.

Other well known U.K. with European 'big brands' mentioned on this forum have tried to form Trans-European 'cartels' and failed. For commercial reasons, I cannot disclose who they are, but I can back-up the comments I make, wether you choose to believe me or not.

Profit margins with certain U.K. importers – legitimate, or ones who are failing to comply with the law, are still not as great as you think. However, you choose to believe what you want. We all have an opinion, this is a hobby, we can do as we please, be happy and buy from any dealer, eBay, or anywhere else.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ian WelfordParticipant @ianwelford58739]

Ketan

a very comprehensive summary, well expressed.

Having been to a Factory sized unit for woodworking tools in the US, I was horrified to find the worst selection of poor quality router bits I had ever seen ( apart from rust covered ones at car boots but not a vast improvement on those).

A lot of the stuff is shipped or mail order using UPS or some other carrier.

Some of the stuff was good and keenly priced but you had to check it carefully, "built to a price" definitely applied.

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