Buying webspace and associated email addresses.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Robin Graham on 18/07/2022 00:26:01:

I had thought that when providers said 'one email' they meant just myonename_at_domain, and it foxed me a bit – surely it must be trivial to make new mailboxes given a domain name?

It is trivial to create new email addresses using your domain name. Those email addresses have to be directed somewhere, so what they may mean is that they only give you one email box to forward them to. It's also possible that they will allow you to chose whether to forward to that box or alternatively forward to another (external) email address. Or indeed not forward them at all.

I have my domain parked at EasyDNS but I don't purchase email services from them. I can create any number of addresses from my domain and direct them individually to any other email address that I want (usually my ISP) including multiple addresses. (If your domain is based on your surname, you can create addresses for other family members and direct their email wherever they choose)

I can also kill email coming into specific addresses at that point. (Handy for creating a specific address to use with XYZ Company and then killing it later if they abuse it).

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

St Albans use Ionos and have multiple emails forwarded to appropriate committee members not just one. Not sure which package it is though and how it is set up as I'm not the admin.

You are lucky to get 9Mbps up if on 38Mbps down though that sounds like a phone connection. Cable used to run 10:1 ratio (back in the day it was me that specified that) but as the download speeds rocketed up the DOCSIS protocol did not allow for proportional uploads.

The reason for the imbalance is that the upload was only designed originally to send small housekeeping acknowledgements of downstream packets not running servers which by the way is outside your terms and conditions, It really isn't fair on your neighbours to run a server with anything more that family downloading photos as you can slow the local network down for their simple streaming and stuff ping times for the game playing kids.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Robin Graham on 18/07/2022 00:26:01:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 17/07/2022 11:47:15:

Posted by Robin Graham on 17/07/2022 00:58:06:

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Peter Greene makes a good point – a quick check reveals that my download speed is ~38Mb/s, upload a paltry 9Mb/s.

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I was absolutely positive I'd mentioned that, but either it disappeared or I had a brainstorm. Probably the latter!

Anyway, depending on what Robin is up to, 9Mbits/s might be 'good enough' .

Some numbers. Downloading this thread from the forum requires http://www.model-engineer.co.uk to send me about 1.3Mb of data and – at the moment – I see 22 members have been active within the last 20 minutes.

To keep the estimates simple, a 10Mbits/s link takes almost exactly 1 second to download 1.3Mb. So assuming this forum's server was on a 10Mbit/s link.

• If all 22 users requested the page at the exactly same time, first served would be happy with a 1 second delay, and the last throroughly annoyed by having to wait for 22 seconds! Average wait 11.5 seconds, which is sluggish. However, it's unlikely all 22 users would request a page at the same time, because humans read rather slowly.
• Assuming the 22 humans took a minute to absorb what's on screen before annoying the server again, the server only has to download 22 x 1.3Mb per minute, which a 10Mbits/s link can easily handle in 23 seconds. Thus the link has a good chance of providing 60+ users with 1 second responses (no queuing), more if they're slow readers, and many more if a significant amount of the data is cached locally by the browser. Potentially thousands of users if they all read, think, and type slowly, and spread their activity evenly over time.

Text heavy websites can support surprisingly large numbers of users with a small computer and low network bandwidth. Unfortunately, my simple analysis is only reasonable for basic websites. More difficult when users are likely to generate sharp peak demand for data heavy content. However, I assume Robin isn't intending to stream high-definition video of a popular sports event to the whole world in real-time.

So only having a 9Mbit link at home may not be an obstacle. Security is more difficult, and the thought of being a root-kit victim gives me nightmares.

Don't know what sized pipe http://www.model-engineer.co.uk is actually connected to, but I guess it's not outrageously bigger than 10Mbits/s. As the forum doesn't serve high-density data to a large peaky fast-reacting user base, I'd guess 100Mbits, but it might be less.

Youtube and the like are far more demanding, but even the big boys rely on humans processing data much more slowly, on average, than computers and networks can send it!

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 18/07/2022 16:31:36

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Peter – thanks for the info re email addresses. That makes sense.

Bazyle – my connection is over copper to the exchange (over the road, about 70 metres away!) and fibre optic from there I think. ISP is TalkTalk. But I don't think that I've ever had as bad as a 10:1 down:up ratio – well, not recently for sure. Interesting, I take the points about running a server being outside T&C's and unfairness to neighbours, but if I go along this route it's likely be temporary (security issues) and I would be very surprised if anything I publish will generate bandwidth-challenging traffic. I shan't have any (ahem) 'tractor-related' pages or anything like that. A bit of lathe porn perhaps.

Dave – thanks for the numbers. Your calculations give some welcome perspective. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to get 22 people competing to see my stuff (which will be largely text based). I'll probably buy webspace in the end because of security if nothing else. Though I've just had a look and it seems that TalkTalk do a 'Business Package' which includes unlimited landline and a static IP address for £26 per month – which is less than I'm paying them now! Hmm.

I'm now trying to understand how my router works. It serves maybe eight or nine domestic devices, and I'd assumed that as communications with the 'outside world' are invariably initiated by those devices they give a port number or something which allows the router (which obviously has a single public IP address) to direct replies to individual devices. I can't yet understand how I could run a server on the machine I'm typing on and get packages initiated externally and directed to the public IP address of my router sent to the correct device. Perhaps the DNS allows for such things? The mists are gathering again! II don't need to know this stuff I'd just like to understand if possible.

I'll get there, but any info to speed the process would be welcome.

Robin.

 

 

Edited By Robin Graham on 19/07/2022 01:06:53

[Anonymous]

The router assigns a local ip-address to each device connected to it and keeps track of it via that address.

Depending on setup this might be in the range 192.168.0.xxx for example with the xxx being different for each connected device and assigned either dynamically by the router upon device connection or statically (pre-specified) if its important that the device address be constant.

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

I am not sure that I would want the hassle of running my own web server at home. Hosting provided by one of the already mentioned companies takes away a lot of the strain.

Firstly from home you need a dedicated PC it doesn't need to be particularly powerful but needs a reasonable amount of memory. It needs to run 24/7 preferably with a UPS to protect against power loss. Most modern servers use SSD's for storage.

You need to choose a server software regime – ISS for Windows, Apache, Lighttpd or NGINX for Linux. Most used server system is probably Linux running Apache. You ideally need, as mentioned, a fixed IP address from your ISP and you need a good and reliable upload speed. If you are relying on a telephone line connection it is likely to be low and variable. I have fibre to the cabinet and usually mange 18Mb/s upload which is probably OK.

Configuring Apache is neither simple or quick and security settings are paramount (and way beyond my knowledge). You need to configure server DNS to allocate your new webspace to your domain.

There are quite a few sets of instructions about the interweb that will tell you how, they make it sound easy, it probably isn't. Alternatively you could go the Weebly or Wix route to set up web space. or of course for blogging WordPress.com. None of these require domain name or web-space as such.

My own choice was to get a basic web hosting package which provides, space, security, 24/7 uptime and of course e-mail which you don't get with DIY version.

John

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

Posted by Robin Graham on 19/07/2022 01:06:15:

I'm now trying to understand how my router works. It serves maybe eight or nine domestic devices, and I'd assumed that as communications with the 'outside world' are invariably initiated by those devices they give a port number or something which allows the router (which obviously has a single public IP address) to direct replies to individual devices.

Close. As Peter G says, the router assigns an internal IP address to each device (e.g. 192.168.0.XXX). When that device asks the router for an external connection the router translates (called NAT) the address into [your.external.ip.address] plus, as you surmise, a different port number for each communication. The external world responds to [your.external.ip.address: portNo] which the router re-addresses to the appropriate internal device.

If the router gets an inbound message which does not have a portNo that corresponds to an external connection it recognises, most routers throw the inbound traffic away. It acts as a first line defence for your network.

If you want to allow unsolicited inbound traffic to reach an server inside your network, the usual method is to put that server in what is known as a DMZ (demilitarized zone!), and tell the router to pass all unsolicited traffic (usually with port 80 for http or 443 for https traffic) to the IP address of the server.

But the security on that server needs to be good. You would not want to run the server on your existing computer!

PS this all assumes IPV4 – IPV6 is a whole new can of worms.

Damn emojis

 

Edited By Peter Cook 6 on 19/07/2022 10:34:12

Edited By Peter Cook 6 on 19/07/2022 10:35:44

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I wonder if Robin has two different requirements and it would be worth separating them:

1. Learning how web technology works for interest and education
2. Publish a website on the internet for public consumption. Something like Journeyman's site, which I like very much; interesting content with a clean logical layout.

Learning can be done at home by creating an Intranet. A sandbox in which the server can go up and down like a yo-yo, different software tried, networking investigated, and content created, reorganised and formatted until the website looks good and works. No need to get entangled in internet security or external network issues, or spend money on it. A Research and Development stage covering computers and networking in which mistakes can be made, ideas tested, and skills built. Experimentation might point to a simple flat file based system, perhaps with hand-edited HTML, or identify a need for a complex Content Management System with a Database and lots of scripting. Maybe a forum package or e-commerce software etc.

If Robin, who has a C programming background, was interested in how web servers work under the bonnet, I could share how to write a basic web-server. (Easier in Python than C, but either is good.) More educational than practical, but I find understanding how they work and might be developed more fun than publishing content.

After R&D publishing becomes an easier second phase. It tackles a different set of problems, such as selecting who offers the best deal, who supports technically what the now customer understands is needed, and how is content uploaded without breaking anything whilst creating the desired look and feel. The ideal is a website that works first time, not a shambles of buggy 'Under Construction' features that are slowly debugged by a baffled amateur completely out of his or her depth.

Not necessary to do lots of R&D or develop deep skills if the goal is just a simple website, but I think Robin wants to do more than that. Not dissimilar to my workshop, where turning and milling is almost s much about learning and interest as making things.

Dave

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Scripting basic HTML was always the easiest part and simpler still if one used a scripting program and then just made minor edits to create the finished item….

Until one gets beyond just delivering a simple single script page and adds other goodies. Then the questions arise how well it is rendered in Edge or Safari or Firefox or Opera and again how well it will be viewed and handled on small screen mobile devices. The script gets larger as you identify the rendering programs and deliver adjusted variants as necessary which means you have to view your own work in them in turn.

Unless the site is just a special interest thing folk are invited to or so unique that it will be found on searches then another issue is developing methods to push yourself up search lists.

I got caught in the early days when some hosting packages weren't unlimited bandwidth or automatically switched off when bandwidth was reached. Get caught by some bad actors throwing DOS type attacks at you and the monthly bill is frightening as was some wag breaching the passwords and uploading gigabytes of rubbish adverts into comment areas. Be aware.

pgk

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Thanks for further replies.

Peter Greene – thanks, though I had already realised that I have 192.168.xxx.xxx on 'my'side of the router and have set things up so each of my devices has a static address in that space – I needed to do that because I have Samba and NFS shares between devices.

Jouneyman – I'm coming round to your (and others' way of thinking, ie that it isn't worth the hassle of setting up 'private' server, largely because of security issues. Just something I was toying with because it would be a fun thing to do. I'm OK with setting up Apache oddly.

Peter Cook 6 – thanks for your explanation of how outgoing/incoming packages cross the router interface. I had a look at the router configuration and found that I could toggle DMZ 'on' (after dire warnings from the router!). I made a brief experiment and had a working server, but quickly shut it down because of security concerns. I'm not going to risk going that way.

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 19/07/2022 12:12:35

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Not necessary to do lots of R&D or develop deep skills if the goal is just a simple website, but I think Robin wants to do more than that. Not dissimilar to my workshop, where turning and milling is almost s much about learning and interest as making things.

Dave

Pretty much spot on. I'm satisfied (thanks to PeterC6's explanation of how the router works) that I can, in principle (and brief practical proof of principle testing) , set up a server on my computer. Sometimes proof of principle is enough. I'm not going to take on the risk of hosting on my home machine.

I suppose that at least part of my reason having a home workshop is like Dave's – learning and interest in the process of making things. For me personally it's also to do with demystification. Sometimes I make simple things for other people – a camera mount, an oven knob, whatever. Wow! how did you do that? By having a turny-roundy thing (as someone I know delightfully characterised my lathe), some bits of metal which can cut other bits of metal and a little skill. Same with computers – I like to know, at least in principle, how things work.

Robin

Edited By Robin Graham on 20/07/2022 01:07:32

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