Buying advice sought re Milling Machines: e.g. Proxxon: FF230 vs. BFW40/E vs. MF70

[Pete.Participant @pete-2]

John, I was going on the assumption it would be fit for purpose out the box, if it's not, we'll that's another topic on it's own.

Francis, the updated x1 sold by Arc has a fixed column.

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

Two points.

As far as I am aware either the Taig nor the Sherline mills have quills for drilling. Both rely on the Z-axis leadscrew for such motion, and that makes drilling on them a little tedious I suspect. That's one reason I bought an SX1LP rather than a Taig (I have a Taig lathe) or Sherline mill.

If most of the work you want to do is small scale and milling is more important than drilling, have you thought about a small lathe with a vertical slide. I have done small scale milling on my Taig lathe before getting the SX1LP, and would suspect that it is at least as good at milling as the small Proxxon. It is also considerably lighter and easier to put away than any capable mill. Axminster do the C0 which weighs 13kg, the C2 weighs 37kg. My Taig weighs about the same as a C0 . It has the side benefit that you also get a lathe!!

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

I've had a few small mills and used quite a few more. Imo the sieg sx1lp would make most sense for your applications. I would just put up with the weight.

You see the problem with most of the very small machines is the round column. Trust me it soon gets tiresome loosing position when making adjustments.

The Sherline is not a bad second choice, its a nice machine (regretted selling mine) and it could be modified quite easily to better suit your needs. The motor for example would be fairly easy to swap and you could buy a "sensitive drilling attachment" to make drilling easier.

The only other options are an Emco 5 mill or Cowells mill. Unfortunately both of these are quite rare/uncommon so finding one might be a challenge.

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

I have some friends with small Proxxon MF70 mills and they love them. They are ideal for small modelling work in softer materials. One of them bought a pillar drill within weeks if I recall correctly.

I was looking about that time and it never occurred to be to go so small and light, because I was already focussed on steel and doing relatively-precision engineering, so I knew I had to pay for pounds weight and put up with a permanent installation.

However all I have done in since I got it could have been on on the Proxxon, and most of what I will do could be. It really does come down to what you want to do with it.

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

@Pete
> Would it be too time consuming to separate into two halves to be put away?
Interesting question.
Maybe one could come up with some kind of quick release bolts??

What about removal of the table – or are we saying that it already weights c 50KG WITHOUT the table, and with the table it's c. 60Kg

@SillOldDuffer

If buying 2 machines, what would you recommend for the high speed small one (if not the Proxxon MF70)?

> …which suggests trying to combine high-rpm drilling and low-rpm milling in one machine is mechanically tricky.

Wait, exactly why are milling machines LOW rpm?
I thought it was just about getting a good cutting speed. And the outside edge of a drill will have the same cutting speed as the side of a milling blade, no?

> For that reason a specialist high-speed drill for small diameters
> will work well with a dinky motor and modest bearings hopeless for milling.
Yes, the bearings will blow up.

> And the power and bearings of a milling machine don't favour high speed.
Why?
And nowadays you see good quality robust bearings are all over place (e.g. on car wheels)
Surely power should help get up to speed.

@Frances IoM
TBH, this all sounds way beyond me.
What's a "DTI"?

@Peter Cook 6
> As far as I am aware [n?]either the Taig nor the Sherline mills
> have quills for drilling. Both rely on the Z-axis leadscrew for such motion…
I don't really understand.
Does this mean that you need to raise to milling table itself in order to drill?

Re getting a lathe instead, that would mean turning the part in question, yes?
In which case, no most of the time that won't be possible.

@Roger Best
Do you ever cut mild steel? What is the maximum diameter for cutting mild steel?
Some reviews think Proxxon MF70 flexes too much.

e.g. Although I've not watched the whole thing yet, this (Russian?) reviewer Sergey Kutuzov seems to find quite a lot wrong with the build quality…
**LINK**

Are there any alternative SMALL (and therefore high speed [e.g. 10,000+RPM] ) milling machines, that would be alternatives to the Proxxon MF70, but which have better build quality?

[Pete.Participant @pete-2]

I think it's 4 cap head screws, probably take you a minute to unscrew, I'd guess this would split the weight roughly 50/50, the weight of the column, head and motor one half, the base and table the other half.

When I sold my x2, the next size up machine, i picked the whole thing up from the bench and put it in his car without any difficulties, the next size down split in 2 pieces could be lifted on to a shelf easily.

[Roger BParticipant @rogerb61624]

As an experiment I drilled a 3mm hole in a piece of 3mm thick probably mild steel with my MF70. The drill was a new Proxxon shortseries drill from one of their sets. Speed was minimum, 5000rpm, the feed was wind as fast as you can till the motor starts to stall. With more consideration given to the feed it would probably have been better but it worked. Here is a video clip:

**LINK**

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Couple of points, Sherline do a sensative drilling attachment specifically aimed at small drills which negates the need for a quill. If they did put a quill on it that would likely take it over your initial weight limit, can't have both.

As I have said before I would rather do without a high top speed that be stuck with a high low speed. Sone odd numbers in that Wiki chart you looked at.

One other thing to think about if you go to separate machines. How are you going to mark out and position all these small holes? Taking your plates with the accurate angled side, do you really want to be marking out 70 odd holes and then picking up the position on the part to drill a small hole. Far easier on the mill to use that to position the first hole and then you have a decent size table to mount jigs etc so all the other holes can be positioned with repeatability.

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

Always, always listen to JasonB. I can only ever remember totally agreeing with his advice. ie.get a sherline.

However, a real alternative might be a Boley jig borer (a mini BCA). I got one under my desk which I can reasonably easily lift onto the desk when needed. Max through size of an 8mm collet is about 4.5mm so it isn't intended to 'drill' above that but not so bad with a stub drill at 5mm. Pics in my album.

Probably not helpful advice as you won't be able to find one if you 'look' but they do turn up.

And btw I have a Proxxon TBM220 drill which I find quite handy. 4mm is really a limit, if already too much. There is some feeling of quality in Proxxon that seems to make them a bit better to use than I expect.

Edited By jaCK Hobson on 01/04/2021 08:31:00

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by jaCK Hobson on 01/04/2021 08:18:11:

[…]

However, a real alternative might be a Boley jig borer (a mini BCA). I got one under my desk which I can reasonably easily lift onto the desk when needed. Max through size of an 8mm collet is about 4.5mm so it isn't intended to 'drill' above that but not so bad with a stub drill at 5mm. Pics in my album.

…

.

That’s pretty

**LINK** for convenience

https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/albums/member_album.asp?a=55241

MichaelG.

[Andy CarlsonParticipant @andycarlson18141]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 01/04/2021 02:55:53:

@Frances IoM
TBH, this all sounds way beyond me.
What's a "DTI"?

A very useful thing!

Dial Test Indicator, sometimes just Dial Indicator or Clock Gauge. Used for checking that work is parallel to the axis on a milling machine, concentric on a lathe and so on. I have a small lever style gauge on a magnetic base and adjustable stand. I use it all the time.

There is also the plunger style gauge. I have one of those too. I keep intending to arrange clamps to hold it parallel to my lathe axes but never got a round tuit.

The MF70 is not magnetic. I've added a couple of bits of 4mm steel plate between the XY table and base on mine so that the magnetic base has something to stick to. Other folks have made clamps to attach one to the spindle housing.

[Stuart Munro 1Participant @stuartmunro1]

Hi john,

I'm coming late to this debate, sorry. But I faced this very choice a couple of years ago. I went the Proxxon route and frankly it was a mistake.

I do very light engineering with plenty of brass and aluminium aluminium. The Proxxon looked on paper to be ideal but it lacks guts so is painfully slow to make parts with, and its size restricts it by and large to Proxxon consumables.

I bit the bullet and sold it, moving up to a Sherline. I have to move it out of my way frequently due to space restrictions so a 'liftable' machine was essential. The Sherline is easy to get hold of in the UK although it can sometimes take a week or two to get the parts. Mill Hill supplies of Basildon are the main importer and DPP -an online shipper from California – will list parts for you on eBay. (David, on Dpp@Conaco.com – or just enter Sherline milliing machine on eBay search)

My recommendation – get the DRO (easy after fit) and get a 10mm mill bit holder. You can then buy 10mm shank waldon bits from Arc Euro or ACCU.

Whilst I mostly mill Aly and Brass, I have milled mild steel and its just fine. Online videos show it machining a wide range of materials.

If you want to know more – happy to answer, Or talk to Kevin at Mill hill Supplies 01279 418300.

Regards

Stuart

[Stuart Munro 1Participant @stuartmunro1]

ps. A high speed mill head is available with the sherline if high RPM is essential. Normally it maxes out a 6000 rpm but with the high speed head, I believe 10,000 is achievable.

Stuart

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 01/04/2021 02:55:53:

@Peter Cook 6
> As far as I am aware [n?]either the Taig nor the Sherline mills
> have quills for drilling. Both rely on the Z-axis leadscrew for such motion…
I don't really understand.
Does this mean that you need to raise to milling table itself in order to drill?

Re getting a lathe instead, that would mean turning the part in question, yes?
In which case, no most of the time that won't be possible.

On machines designed for drilling (most small mills and drills) there are two ways to lower the drill bit towards the work. One is to move the whole head down, the second is usually a rack and pinion or similar arrangement that moves the spindle holding the drill bit relative to the head. This parts that move within the head and allow this is known as the quill. If a machine does mot have a quill, then the only way to drill with it is to move the whole head down to feed the drill into the work.

The Sherline & Taig small mills don't have a quill, and to lower the drill into the work you would need to wind the vertical (Z axis) leadscrew down. Accurate in terms of Z position for milling, but slow and cumbersome for hole drilling. You can use a sensitive drilling attachment, but that limits the size of drill (the Sherline unit has a maximum of 4mm).

Using a lathe with a vertical slide for milling doesn't mean turning the work. You mount the workpiece on a vertical slide fitted to the saddle of the lathe, and put the milling cutter in the lathe chuck (use a collet). So the work stays still and the lathe motor rotates the cutter. It's like a small mill laid on its back. If you search "vertical slide" on Warco's site you will see an example fitted to their version of the small lathe.

[Stuart Munro 1Participant @stuartmunro1]

Peter is right about how long it can take to lower the drill bit by winding the Z axis and if you are doing repetitive work, you would be surprised how tiring on the arm it can be. You can acquire a stepper motor, indeed you can upgrade to full CNC! But if you're going that far there are probably better alternatives available.

Sherline also make a lathe (I've bought both). The lathe uses the same motor/head combination which by the way, has fully variable electronic speed control up to the standard 6000rpm (10,000 max with optional extras). The lathe can also have a mill column fitted creating a combined mill and lathe unit. I'm not sure how useful this is but it does reduce the combined size and cost.

You can probably tell I'm a Sherline fan but I make small, low volume, non repetitive components for which it is ideally suited. Those on this site who build model railway engines would find it woefully inadequate. Horses for courses.

Stuart

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by Roger B on 01/04/2021 07:12:29:

As an experiment I drilled a 3mm hole in a piece of 3mm thick probably mild steel with my MF70. The drill was a new Proxxon shortseries drill from one of their sets. Speed was minimum, 5000rpm, the feed was wind as fast as you can till the motor starts to stall. With more consideration given to the feed it would probably have been better but it worked. Here is a video clip:

**LINK**

Thank you. But have you tried milling mild steel?

J

[Andy CarlsonParticipant @andycarlson18141]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 05/05/2021 11:50:47:

Thank you. But have you tried milling mild steel?

I have. It works.

If expect to be chewing away metal at a rate of knots then you will be disappointed. My jobs on steel have been mainly making pretty small fixings for the (similarly diminutive) Cowells lathe or making fine adjusting cuts to refine the fit of work done on bigger machines. Size-wise they vary but they are all small – think around 1/2 inch or less on each side.

I've mainly used the Proxxon cutters and they got the job done on steel with an excellent surface finish but more experienced contributors here have said that these cutters have a geometry better suited to non ferrous. More recently have bought an Arc Euro stub sized cutter which ought to be better suited to steel. I have only used this on brass so far so I can't report back on its performance on steel.

My most recent job was drilling a couple of 1/8 inch holes through some 5/8 aluminium. I'd had previous experience of the nasty noise that 3mm or 1/8 drills make when used at 5000 RPM in the MF70. I had thought that the noise was coming from the (usually pretty thin) workpiece but even with a 5/8 block I got the same awful screech. I switched to a stub length drill (maybe 2.8mm) for the first few mm of the hole and this ran tolerably quietly. I then went back to the 1/8 (standard length) drill and made sure that I stuffed it into the pre drilled hole as quickly as possible. Once it was a few mm deep the screeching didn't happen. My theory then is that the screeching happens because of resonance in the drill itself and my experience is that any standard length drill much over 2.5mm will protest in this way when used at 5000 RPM.

[Roger BParticipant @rogerb61624]

As ever show and tell. These rocker arms were milled from 6mm square silver steel with a Proxxon 3mm end mill. The 2mm keyseats in a medium carbon steel crankshaft (ST50 maybe similar to EN8) and a silver steel camshaft were cut with a Proxxon 2mm end mill.

[Andy CarlsonParticipant @andycarlson18141]

Nice work Roger.

FWIW I've also cut a 1mm screwdriver slot in a broken high tensile bolt using the MF70. TBH I wasnt expecting this to succeed but I really needed to get the broken part out. Anyway… it worked and I got the bolt out.

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by Roger B on 05/05/2021 15:15:10:

As ever show and tell. These rocker arms were milled from 6mm square silver steel with a Proxxon 3mm end mill. The 2mm keyseats in a medium carbon steel crankshaft (ST50 maybe similar to EN8) and a silver steel camshaft were cut with a Proxxon 2mm end mill.

Crumbs – that's rather amazing. Out of interest, what milling bit(s) did you use for all that?

Also, beyond setting the Proxxon to minimal speed (5000RPM) what special techniques did you use?
(I am assuming that you did mill rather than abrade/grind the silver steel, yes?)

Did you need to push the workpiece at the milling bit very fast, so as to get to slow the thing down enough for create a half-sensible cutting speed?

Did you need to use oil to cool & lubricate (if so what oil did you use?)

Did it squeal like a Banshee or did you find any clever ways to stop it doing so?

Please forgive the dumb questions as I am new to milling…!

J

PS In the absence of anything else that is small and light in weight but of build better quality I am on the very verge of buying a Proxxon MF70. When funds permit I plan to also buy something more 'grown-up', probably a Sherline 5400 metric at some point.

[Andy CarlsonParticipant @andycarlson18141]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 19/05/2021 18:26:48:

Did it squeal like a Banshee or did you find any clever ways to stop it doing so?

Just to reiterate… the nasty squealing that I mentioned was from drilling, not milling. I'd estimate that any drill over about 2.5mm is likely to do this. Milling wont be silent though… few machining operations are.

[Roger BParticipant @rogerb61624]

I was using the Proxxon cutters, the 2mm cutter for the keyways was probably run at around 10 000 rpm with the feed as fast as I could turn the handle. The 3mm cutter for the rocker arms was probably run at around 8 000rpm with a slightly more gentle feed. No lubricant was used.

[Morse HomologyParticipant @morsehomology91685]

I have a FF230. Same story; space restrictions. In my case I was also buying in a hurry. In hindsight I'd have held out for a jig borer, Aceira, ff500, Cowells or whatever. It works, some of the bits are reasonably high quality. The motor needs to run at higher speeds, round column is bad design (it's not that bad, but it's still bad; dovetails are better), and if the table were ever so slightly bigger it would be very helpful. Also the ability to mill at an angle …. it kind of forces you to mill at angles. Tramming is difficult and the dogs don't hold it well; I've had endmills catch on work and had the head twist over on the angle axis. It's just a friction screw thingee. Lame.

You can totally drill 6mm and mill whatever without it making too much noise on soft steel "hogging" at a half mm at a time. Basically it's better than nothing. I don't do a huge amount of milling and I'm pretty sure it's better than milling on a lathe, so it's OK for now. Not ideal though.

[John Barrett 7Participant @johnbarrett7]

I wouldn't be without my Proxxon BF40/E. Versatile, accurate, and I do just about all my sheet metal work and fine milling with it. It drills 6mm holes in MS without a grunt, squeek or noticeably slowing down. I recommended one to a friend and he said that he blesses me every time he has to drill small holes quickly and accurately.

Although I have an FB2 for the heavy stuff, most of this has been made with it…

[img]https://i.imgur.com/ZYsMEo3.jpg[/img]

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

> I wouldn't be without my Proxxon BF40/E

I take it you mean the Proxxon BFW40/E… which sounds brilliant. I am regretting buying my MF70.

The thing that put me off most was about the BFW40/E is the round column. I am surprised to hear that you find it to be accurate, but it certainly seems amazingly versatile and what a joy to have the option of a quill as well as the ability to change the angle of the mill itself, rather than mess around changing the angle of the work piece.

I might try and get one second hand.

e.g. I found one on eBay called "Proxxon bfw 36" but I can't find any specs.
Either way, do you know what the "/e" stands for ?

J

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